Struggling with mid-game techs choices.

[Arromir]

Hey all,

I recently came back to the game after a number of years away, and I find I tend to loose focus once I hit CS. I know each game will not play the same, and I generally don't have a problem figuring out early game priorities, however once I start getting later into the game I'm never sure what I should shoot for. Any advice would be great.

Thanks!

 

[lymond]

Welcome back! First of all, just a bit of advice. It's really the early game where a lot of players fall into bad habits. Early game is so important and learning some basic concepts, even if you do have some experience, will benefit you greatly.

With that said, "mid-game" sometimes means different things to different folks. Without seeing your game or know your settings, it's hard to pinpoint advice to your situation. I recommend posting up a recent game or two for some critique .

Regardless, after reaching the all important CS tech and Bureaucracy, especially if you've tailored up a nice Bureau cap up to that point, you should see a nice tech boost. However, meanwhile you should have prepared yourself for some focused great people generation. Namely Great Scientists for some good old fashion Lib path bulbage.

How you proceed may depend on a) the difficulty level b) your desired path to victory. In many cases this often involves some serious mid-game reduction of human population - that is, other civs' human population for your own gains.

A common and tried and true approach is to Lib Military Tradition for some Cur warfare. Go out and conquer. On lower difficulties (again, not sure what level you play) you might try something different - holding out Lib for something later, since you should otherwise be well outpacing the AIs tech wise. Another option is to Lib Steel for cannons which on most levels you can pair up with just about anything and smoke the AIs.

Oh..and map type can also factor into your decisions.

Anyway, we will really need more information about your game and settings to really help you. We can get you back up to speed quickly here.

 

[Arromir]

I'm currently playing on Monarch, and I'll attach my current game with Gilgamesh. I'm using BUG 4.4 so hopefully that's not an issue.

This is my longest game since I've come back, I've rolled a few starts just to get a feel for early development. You're probably right about warfare being a good bet, but I've never been great at knowing exactly when to push for that. I'm guessing Babylon is probably a good choice in this case?

Edit: Here's a couple screenshots for those just wanting an overview.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

 

[sampsa]

Hey. Judging from the save, this:

It's really the early game where a lot of players fall into bad habits. Early game is so important and learning some basic concepts, even if you do have some experience, will benefit you greatly.

was spot on. I'm not saying that you are doing bad in that position, just that you could be doing a lot better.

• The whip. You are working a lot of very weak tiles in many cities when you could just whip them away and get those buildings up faster.
• Tile values. You seem to work a lot of 04 tiles. Working that tile loses compared to whipping. You should have less mines and more improved grassland tiles (cottages/farms).
• Buildings. You have several cities where a lighthouse would be very beneficial, but instead you have built a weaker building like monastery, ziggurat or even a useless (for now) aqueduct. I get the feeling you undervalue by a lot.
• Resources. You have some unhappy citizens and have unconnected gems (and aren't running HR?). You could also be selling resources for per turn. Re-negotiate horse for gold to get a better deal.

With these settings (pangaea and a relatively low difficulty level) you could crush the world at construction (elephants+cats) or engineering at the latest. Not sure if that is the most educational way to play though. Nothing wrong with trying to get that military advantage with the free tech from liberalism.

Anyway, how to proceed from here? To me, the most simple way is probably something like:

• spread buddhism. Spread the religion if you are adopting one, mostly to take advantage of the religious civics. Start whipping those missionaries immediately. All the big cities should have the religion in the next 6-8 turns. Don't whip many buildings now, as soon you need them cities to be as big as possible.
• After you have philo and the from capital is out, start a golden age. Switch to HR+caste+pacifism to take out more great people. I'd favor scientists for now, although one merchant would be good, too.
• Win liberalism with the help of bulbs. Double bulb education, bulb liberalism (don't get machinery as that blocks this bulb!). Get nationalism and music (and gunpowder), finish liberalism, pick Mil trad. Use merchant for trade mission.
• Take appropriate war civics (maybe on the last turn of the golden age?), whip cuirs, conquer. Accept capitulation, conquer more. Conquer all.

Edit: oh nobody still has music, maybe you should just win it now and start the golden age with the artist after you have philo.

 

[InovA]

From a glance:

• A better spot for your capital was 1E on the plains hill. This city spot has +2/+2/+1 instead of the regular +2/+1/+1, netting a fast 1st worker and much faster everything to follow. This spot also has more grass tiles (may not have been visible at start), is still "coastal" (probably expected an ocean to its west) and gains a grass river tile, great for cottages. Only downside is losing the Marble as a workable city tile, but your Creative trait will still speed up your culture and put it in your borders after the 2nd border pop (T26 or so) and your 2nd city's spot is able to work it as a tile.
• You made a lot of farms for your capital, probably a bit too many. The grass Cows gives +4 (-2 citizen) and with 2 floods plains you're up to +4, not bad, but you'd probably like a little more for your capital. So 1, maaybe 2 farms is ok, to help it recover from early whips. But your capital really wants cottages more than anything. Along with Bureaucracy's +50% cottages really shine. As a grass river town they generate 5, boosted to 7.5, boosted with Library and Academy to 13.1 from a single tile! And the 2nd city's location is great to help your capital's cottages grow fast enough that it can whip at a normal rate. (2nd city takes cottage tiles when capital's population is too low, etc.)
• I think you teched Masonry waaay too early. I get that you wanted the tile, but faster cottages gives a big boost in the long run, and hooking up Marble doesn't help speed up The Oracle as much as skipping Masonry to start The Oracle ~5 turns sooner, along with worker chops to finish it. Best early tech path was probably Animal Husbandry -> Pottery -> Mining -> BW -> Mysticism + Med + Priesthood. (Or Pottery after BW if forests blocked all grass river tiles)
• After you Oracle'd CoL you went all around in techs. Math was good if you were going for fast Currency (one of the best early game techs, for the +1 in every city generating +1 or more and the ability to build Wealth). If this was on Emperor or higher that would probably be the best path, but for Monarch and below, the AI techs Alphabet slowly enough that it slows you down, too. I would've teched Alphabet after Oracle -> CoL to begin tech trading, Currency to follow, then the Aesthetics + Literature + Music line because of your Marble enabling a faster Great Library and good fail gold bonus on other wonders.
• You built Aqueducts. No. Don't do that. Your cities are plenty healthy, if a city was close to you'd try to trade for more + resources instead of waste 100 (which could be 100 - 125 through Wealth building) on an aqueduct. The Hanging Gardens isn't a very good wonder anyways.
• You're not running Hereditary Rule. The + goes a long way and it doesn't have an increase in upkeep compared to Despotism.
• You're not whipping much. Any unimproved tile being worked is considered inefficient. Whipping is one of the biggest reasons human players are able to outplay the highest difficulties, it has a huuuge to return and boosts the early game more than any other game mechanic.
• You're paying 6 per turn extra for Organized Religion while only having 1 Buddhist city. Confucianism can be considered a good choice since you have the holy city and 4 Confucian cities, but Buddhism for Diplomacy is very nice here. Spreading the religion to your cities for +1 and the OR civic bonus is a necessity for your larger cities.
• Your capital should be running 2 scientists. Maybe it's ok to hurry the NE first, (whip it now) but then you want to have the extra Great Scientist (along with 1 about to finish) for about 3200! (1 bulb on Education, 1 on Liberalism. May need to tech Compass to enable the 2nd bulb on Lib, if you can't trade for it). You can tech Nationalism, Music, and Gunpowder. Liberalism on Military Tradition and you'll have access to the greatest unit(s) for sweeping Pangaea, especially for how well you can rush for them. Cuirassiers will carry you and take out at least 2 or 3 civs, you can continue to tech towards Rifling during your sweeps to enable Cavalry.
• You should be trading resources more. All trades are in your favor, because it boosts you and your partner slightly, meaning it sets back the other 5 AI considerably. You have 1 excess Fish and Wine that you could be selling, and your cities are all about +5 (would be more after whipping) so you're able to trade another 4 or 5 resources away. Say you sell 6 resources for an average of 3per turn, that's a very solid 18 per turn. Also you can trade MC to the Koreans for Construction and 90 right now. I always try to sell the cheaper techs (like Literature!) for 50+ from an AI. With 6 AI that could give you 500 if done at the right opportunities! (AI have more after a wonder finishes, they may have received fail gold.) And Babylon will buy Meditation from you for 70! No fear trading a tech like that to him and he's far behind, easy money.

 

[Randy Random]

You need to work on specializing your cities. You have 7 workers for 9 cities. You should probably have twice that many. You have 18 citizens working unimproved tiles and six resources that are either unimproved or not connected. The AI has 460 gold available and 9 GPT available. you don't have your spy points on anyone. You should put them on Asoka so you can see what he's researching. You have the great library but you are researching philosophy and not running scientists. I'd be going for Music and try to bulb Philosophy, Paper, and maybe part of Education then Nationalism, Gunpowder, Lib and take Military Tradition with Lib. I'd also consider Backstabbing Asoka and killing his great artist he's about to culture bomb Etruscan with. You can bribe Sulieman to attack him to keep him busy and sue for peace when you get a chance. Lastly, IDK why you haven't gone into HR? You're not doing too bad on happiness, but you do have two unhappy cities and switching at the same time as Bureau or OR (assuming that was two different civic changes) would only be one turn of anarchy.

 

[Arromir]

Thanks for all the great advice so far. I must be getting old, because I definitely knew some of this stuff before. Having a lot of doh! moments here .

I definitely need to check my civics more often. I was running Confucianism but switched for diplomacy and forgot to switch out of . I also definitely neglected building up workers after I settled the last four or so cities. A couple things you guys mentioned that I'm hazy on are espionage and bulbing. Is it necessary to manually assign spy points, and how do you choose who to focus on? As for bulbing, is there a way to know what techs will be available to bulb and what techs block that path or do you need to look that up online?

Civ 5 was my last major foray into the series, and I know some people prefer it, but the difference between the amount of decisions you have to make there to here is something else.

Edit: And a couple more questions. InovA mentioned building wealth; when would that be a good option for a city? And is it better than building research?

 

[sampsa]

Is it necessary to manually assign spy points, and how do you choose who to focus on?

Preferably someone you will be trading a lot of techs with.

As for bulbing, is there a way to know what techs will be available to bulb and what techs block that path or do you need to look that up online?

Spoiler :

In the left side of the screen it shows what techs will be bulbed. There are two icons next to every -type. The upper one shows which tech the will bulb now. The lower one which tech the will bulb after you have all the techs you have chosen on the screen i.e. in this case philo, paper, education and compass (forgot that in my last post).

 

[Arromir]

Thank you sampsa, I never realized that was how the bottom icon worked.

 

[Arromir]

I got home a bit earlier today and decided to roll another start to see if I can eliminate some of the mistakes that you guys noted.

Spoiler :

I moved my warrior 1S to reveal the corn. Am I correct in assuming that moving the settler 1S is the right play here?

Spoiler :

Upon settling I revealed gold in the original BFC. I'm guessing I should try to plant my second city to grab that, and go AH -> Mining -> BW?

 

[sampsa]

Yes, grabbing the corn is a good play, but I would have settled on the phant (gains 2 city tile, doesn't lose a turn). You can always claim that gold later. You can see floodplains already in SW, so that area is more interesting to me than gold. Your tech path sounds fine. During the first 5 turns you should select and deselect a tech though (i.e. end turn without selecting any tech!), especially since you play with huts on.

 

[Arromir]

Yes, grabbing the corn is a good play, but I would have settled on the phant (gains 2 city tile, doesn't lose a turn). ...During the first 5 turns you should select and deselect a tech though (i.e. end turn without selecting any tech!), especially since you play with huts on.

I did not realize that the elephants would keep the 2. I'm guessing you select and deselect in case you pop a tech? Or is there another reason as well?

 

[sampsa]

Yes, saves in case you happen to pop the tech you were planning to research first. Another reason is that you get a -discount if you meet a civ that already has the tech you are researching.

 

[Arromir]

Ah, makes sense. When it comes to terrain giving bonuses to the city, is there a comprehensive list somewhere? I only know about a couple so I'm sure there are some I don't know about.

 

[sampsa]

Let's see. I'll probably miss something, but this should cover the most.

• All tiles that are 2 unimproved (remember that a forest is destroyed by settling on it) also create a 2 city center. Plains hill (even with gold/silver), plains elephant, plains horse, plains copper/iron, plains marble/stone. Grass hill copper/iron. Coal too?
• All tiles that are 3 unimproved also create a 3 city center. Plains hill marble/stone/copper/iron. Excellent tiles to settle on, as they are -negative anyway.
  
• All tiles that are 3 unimproved also create a 3 city center, except floodplains. Grass rice/corn/sugar/banana/pig/cow.
• All tiles that are 2 unimproved also create a 2 city center. 3 with financial! Riverside -resources. Honorary mention to riverside plains hill wine 222.

 

[InovA]

As sampsa said, the elephants spot was a little better, but your spot is still good overall. Going after that wet corn (a +6 super food) is a huge boost to your city. The spot 1SE (so 1E of where you picked) would've been nice, giving you the gold resource, but that couldn't have been seen from the start, so your placement would've been my 2nd choice because there are more river tiles in the city and if you settled 1SE, then you would cover up the grass river tile, meaning one less cottage for your city. Your tech path sounds right to me, followed by Pottery. You would go Pottery earlier if there weren't forests blocking the river tiles, and the chops helping get out more workers/settlers will be helpful. You may even go for a 2nd worker before settlers and 4x chop 2 settlers out.

Another thing to note is that the BFC is designed to have a balanced, if not extra, amount of resources for your 1st city. This is assuming you settle in place after the world is generated. Any tile which has a resource will not have a forest on it. We can see many, many forests surrounding the area. If we think of it like Minesweeper, the forests would be "flags" indicating a resource isn't on that tile. That leaves more reason to anticipate the other tiles would have a resource. So although we can't see the gold at the start (or the wine or 2nd ivory), we can see that the edge doesn't have a forest and we can assume there is more likely to be a resource there than usual (even if the resource won't be revealed until later techs).

 

[Arromir]

Let's see. I'll probably miss something, but this should cover the most.

• All tiles that are 2 unimproved (remember that a forest is destroyed by settling on it) also create a 2 city center. Plains hill (even with gold/silver), plains elephant, plains horse, plains copper/iron, plains marble/stone. Grass hill copper/iron. Coal too?
• All tiles that are 3 unimproved also create a 3 city center. Plains hill marble/stone/copper/iron. Excellent tiles to settle on, as they are -negative anyway.
  
• All tiles that are 3 unimproved also create a 3 city center, except floodplains. Grass rice/corn/sugar/banana/pig/cow.
• All tiles that are 2 unimproved also create a 2 city center. 3 with financial! Riverside -resources. Honorary mention to riverside plains hill wine 222.

Thank you! I'll definitely have to bookmark this post for future reference.

My long gaming evening was cut short - the struggles of a married man . After we went out to eat I only had time for a few more turns, and this map does offer a number of options.

Spoiler :

I went ahead and switched the capitol to the elephants. Knowing that it's 2 and also not wasting a turn makes this an exponentially quicker start.

Spoiler :

A couple of turns later I got some bad news when my warrior climbed on the hill and spotted Viking borders immediately to the south. I don't remember exactly how aggressive Ragnar is. Do I need to start planning for an early war?

Spoiler :

Over the next few turns I continued teching AH -> Mining -> BW. I got very lucky with the hut to the north of the capitol which gave me Pottery. After my first worker I built another warrior, then at size three a second worker, and started a granary. The extra coupled with the two cows really sped up this early production.

Spoiler :

I completed BW on turn 31, and this was what I had revealed so far. I have bronze, stone and marble within easy reach, and plenty of fish to the north to power several cities. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, warfare is not my strong suit, especially so early on. Should I try to appease Ragnar, or try to rush him down with Vultures?

As far as settlers go, I'm thinking I should double chop the first one, and whip the second, possibly finishing the granary in between. Or is there a better way?

Spoiler :

If taking Ragnar on now, should I just forward settle him on the PH to the south? The X spot to the west might be another option.

My warrior did reveal bronze right outside of Ragnar's borders, however he did go for a religion first, so he probably doesn't have it yet. I'll be able to see what he's researching the following turn, but do I have enough time to take him down before he does so? Should I even go for two settlers before attacking?

Spoiler :

I marked the potential spots to the north. I want to get the fish and the gold spot first, and I'm leaning towards 1A. It misses out on the second fish, but it also let's me put another city on the PH next to the mountains. The crab city I will back fill later, but please let me know which options y'all would go with.

Spoiler :

Finally, I have to decide on where to tech next. Should I grab fishing next and get the gold/fish city going, and go Writing after that? Is it viable to go after any of the wonder resources I fight Ragnar right now?

Again, really appreciate the time you guys are taking to give me some feedback. Hope this post isn't too crazy long.

 

[sampsa]

Spoiler :

IMO the best play is to slow build a settler at size 3, because you have 3 strong tiles (corn+2*plains cow). Unless you have two wet corn or something like that, slow build that first settler, because you will get it out faster that way. If you are slow building a settler/worker, a granary is moot. Thus, the time for granaries comes usually a bit later, say around turn 50. Also, building a 2nd worker before founding the 2nd city is rarely good, because 2nd city immediately generates both and for you, and doesn't lose if it's connected. I guess your workers had nothing to do since you've built two relatively useless roads, a sign that there could be a better way.

I would start the settler now at size 4 (work the best tiles! In the screenshot you are not working the corn. ALWAYS work power tiles like 6), put in a chop and whip it when available. Overflow should finish the granary and you can grow back to size 4. I would settle that plains hill by the river grabbing floodplains. It is possible to take Rags out with vultures, but if you don't feel comfortable doing so, don't do it. Cat+phant war is a very safe choice.

I'd choose 2B and 1B in the north. Grabbing both fishies with one city is great! I'd go for writing-math-masonry-construction -line with fishing and hunting (for +1 ) somewhere in between. Build some riverside grass/fp cottages.

 

[Arromir]

Spoiler :

IMO the best play is to slow build a settler at size 3, because you have 3 strong tiles (corn+2*plains cow). Unless you have two wet corn or something like that, slow build that first settler, because you will get it out faster that way. If you are slow building a settler/worker, a granary is moot. Thus, the time for granaries comes usually a bit later, say around turn 50. Also, building a 2nd worker before founding the 2nd city is rarely good, because 2nd city immediately generates both and for you, and doesn't lose if it's connected. I guess your workers had nothing to do since you've built two relatively useless roads, a sign that there could be a better way.

I would start the settler now at size 4 (work the best tiles! In the screenshot you are not working the corn. ALWAYS work power tiles like 6), put in a chop and whip it when available. Overflow should finish the granary and you can grow back to size 4. I would settle that plains hill by the river grabbing floodplains. It is possible to take Rags out with vultures, but if you don't feel comfortable doing so, don't do it. Cat+phant war is a very safe choice.

I'd choose 2B and 1B in the north. Grabbing both fishies with one city is great! I'd go for writing-math-masonry-construction -line with fishing and hunting (for +1 ) somewhere in between. Build some riverside grass/fp cottages.

That's the darn city governor for you. It stopped working the corn this turn because I was at the happy cap. The only reason the granary was so early was because of the goodie hut. Would pumping out more warriors be more beneficial?

 

[lymond]

Another way to think about the city center bonus is that, with the exception of flood plains and forested tiles, what you see is what you get.

Yes, Gold mine early is huge boost to research so it is nice to get omline, but I'd still focus more on food.