[BTS] Subjective :- Best Leader / Civ combination (player plays)

[sampsa]

A bit off topic I guess, but never an old topic

Strongest combo is always gonna include PHI, it's just the best trait in almost any situation.

I don't really agree with this, main reason being that the way I see should be produced (as a spurt during a GA) does mitigate the bonus PHI provides. Maybe you can make an academy thanks to PHI, but will that beat FIN for example? Perhaps at bureau and beyond, but not in the early game, which IMO matters more.

All have good trait combos, and start with the best starting tech, Mining

I'm not sure if that's a popular opinion, but I think I agree with that. Being closer to BW is very powerful and agri is not always necessary. The old opinion was that agri+wheel is the best combo, because they cost the most. I think nowadays the consensus is agri+mining (China!) is the best, which does feel clearly correct to me.

 

[civac]

I have mentioned this before: The opinion of most Pitboss players is that Financial and Expansive are the best traits while Philosophical is fairly weak. There are however fans of PHI who see it differently. There is not a consensus about it as there is about FIN. China's starting techs of Agriculture, Mining are again overwhelmingly seen as the best possible combination. So this is the same as in SP if sampsa is correct.

 

[Orion Pax]

For me, FIN and CRE are the two traits that make everything in general so much easier on every level and are probably the easiest two to use (or harder to misuse to be exact)... Half-priced forges are nice, but hardly better than half-priced libraries or granaries.

I do occasionally play the guilty pleasure Willem/China game for funsies. Adding Mining to that CRE/FIN + Agri combo is dirty.

Guilty pleasure - too right! Willem of China is for me a hard habit to kick . Agr + Min + FIN + CRE really allow you to control & maximize your land usage, right out of the gate and throughout the game. That impacts tech order, city placement, barb & AI defense, build order, and on. It's like he's the ultimate gardener, much less a go-to for gambits. But at least the half-price Libraries help jump start your GS points. The UB Pavilion is fairly tame, but at least has double synergy with CRE: 1) more base for the 25% multiplier to work off of (2 + 2 from a Libr) & 2) Half-price already cheap building makes it near free.

It's interesting to see CRE get a bit more love these days. Feel like older threads like these often put it fairly middling at best.

Cho-Ku-Nus are of course super fun. Lots of debate around how worth it they are versus Catapults, but they seem most useful for more open-field combat, so defending your turf. And if you're playing K-Mod, Machinery is buffed slightly for FIN leaders, since Watermills now get 1 of their s at their inception (+ 1 more at Elec, rather than both 2 at Elec). Making Machinery a bit more attractive tech to prioritize perhaps.

 

[sampsa]

It's interesting to see CRE get a bit more love these days. Feel like older threads like these often put it fairly middling at best.

I think there are nice minor details in CRE. Early spawn busting is easier thanks to border pops. Easier access to some islands on fractal maps. For someone like me who hates to put into buildings, that 45 library is so sweet.

 

[Orion Pax]

I think there are nice minor details in CRE. Early spawn busting is easier thanks to border pops. Easier access to some islands on fractal maps. For someone like me who hates to put into buildings, that 45 library is so sweet.

Exactly. I really enjoy what the border expansion (& strength, if competing w/ neighbor) brings in terms of control and flexibility at all stages, often a tile here, a tile there. It’s not just the initial fat cross pop. The 3rd ring can pop quick enough to absorb a resource while still allowing a preferred city cite. Attack & defense is impacted as well: Slowing down an invader or speeding up your invasion. In close quarters it can prevent or allow attacking a city right from one's own borders, or dropping onto a hill next to a city. Then after, it can help with conquered cities if close enough (tiles / revolts).

And yeah, the 45 library is nice, if simply for being such an early building. You should still have forests to chop into them for double the . CRE's Quick library bonus to the bonus from FIN tiles is another smaller synergy for Willem.

 

[sampsa]

Oh one more cool thing I forgot to mention - flipping barb cities!

 

[krikav]

Have Cre ever been underrated though? From what I remember it has pretty much always been loved and cheered by pretty much everyone.

 

[civac]

I have definitely seen the attitude that if you like CRE that just means your dotmapping needs work.

 

[Fippy]

Most peoples remaining discuss the early game and eventually move on, so no surprise CRE gets much praise.
I still rate the often underrated SPI higher for example, and in Iso or Semi situations CHA too without thinking

 

[Orion Pax]

I think the posts I had read were pretty old and gave way more love to powerhouses like FIN, PHI, IND. ORG was rated super high as well. SPI often just below usually. CRE from what I saw was often regarded at or below CHA & EXP much of the time, if even mentioned. Seems like appreciation for CRE went up on higher difficulties, with barbs & AI borders ever encroaching.

 

[s.bernbaum]

Somewhat off topic but related: I have never used the random leader option. If I choose that, does it also mean that the AI leaders will be randomly matched with different empires/countries?

 

[sampsa]

ORG was rated super high as well.

I think that has been long gone though. The thing is that ORG becomes good when the game is already won.

 

[SittinDown]

hmmm.... what about Napoleon of the Aztecs as an interesting combo?

Organized + Sacrifical Altar. Incredibly cheap courthouses that make whipping more cheaper.

 

[sampsa]

hmmm.... what about Napoleon of the Aztecs as an interesting combo?

Organized + Sacrifical Altar. Incredibly cheap courthouses that make whipping more cheaper.

For me, the problem is similar as with ORG. When the effect starts to matter, the game would be in the bag even without ORG. Maybe on a massive map, if someone enjoys a very long conquest type of game.

 

[AcaMetis]

Somewhat off topic but related: I have never used the random leader option. If I choose that, does it also mean that the AI leaders will be randomly matched with different empires/countries?

Unless you manually select matching leaders/civs, yes, they'll be randomized as well. Add in Random AI personalities for maximum fun - ever wanted to know what Babylonian Bowman under Churchill channelling the spirit of Monty felt like? I'll give you a hint: They hurt...

 

[ArchGhost]

I think that has been long gone though. The thing is that ORG becomes good when the game is already won.

I think that's probably fair based on the fact you kinda need a big empire to feel the greatest effects from ORG. Staying small and efficient to navigate the important stages of the tech tree quickly you won't see much impact from the main boon of the trait.

Organized is probably my favorite trait, but I can be honest: it's nowhere near as good as PHI/FIN/CRE/CHA all of which are better at enhancing your economy or speeding development. IND more arguable as that's basically like enhanced Build Wealth if it isn't being used to snag a critical GLH or GW.

ORG does well in helping a certain playstyle of stubborn over-expansion that i regularly partake in. Extra cost cushion + the ability to easily whip courthouses to recover if build wealth alone won't cut it. Super cheap lighthouses make working coast more stomachable during crunch or just setting up those extra cities earlier. etc. etc.

 

[SittinDown]

For me, the problem is similar as with ORG. When the effect starts to matter, the game would be in the bag even without ORG. Maybe on a massive map, if someone enjoys a very long conquest type of game.

I hear you. Just trying to think up a scenario when it could be fun to play with ORG in a new way.

Could make for an interesting Cuir build up. But usually you don't need all that for Cuirs to be good anyway. Still, with Aztec + Org, it's a 30 hammer courthouse - or 1 math chop.

And at that point, you're doing the courthouses for the Sacrifical Altar special, not so much the 50% maintenance or spy points.

 

[krikav]

I like playing with organized.
It's nothing that alter the early game too much, and it does give a nice hefty bonus by the time you are getting factories up.

You won't end up on Turn70, thinking that your Fin-trait has won the game for you, but rather you are playing the early game essentially without a trait (save for the lighthouse-bonus which can be quite nice in some games).
Then you get a much needed boost later on in tight games.

 

[civac]

You are underrating the early effects of ORG a bit. ORG savings are applied to each civic category individually and maintenance always gets rounded down. For example if you have 3gpt costs for each of the government, legal, labor, economy and religion civics an ORG empire would only pay 1gpt for each. The lighthouse discount is also somewhat relevant in the early game.

 

[SittinDown]

On an archipelago the lighthouse bonus is way better.
Factory bonus is probably amazing on Rainforest, with all the green workshops. If you're into the whole rainforest space game thing.