Subs starting wars?

[bigFRANK]

I have had 2 occasions now where wars have been started by other civs trying to occupy the square my submersibles have been sat in. These boats are of the wooden type and therefore wouldn’t have seen the sub but surely the AI knows the sub is there if they try to move into the square and that this will start a war.

First time up this led to the destruction of the Roman empire then 2 turns after Rome has fallen my former allies Scandinavia bumps a sub and declares war on me capturing a load of roman workers who have just been assigned to rebuild the mess that I made out of Rome.

What to do with my subs then, I have until now been using them for surveilance purposes.

 

[Spoonwood]

The AI doesn't "mean" to declare war when this happens. This is a well-known bug.

 

[Fiddlin Nero]

[PTW]Civ is not a strong naval game. I've had some fun when I'm way out ahead in Tech and spent the effort to build a large enough navy to dominate the oceans, but normaly I just use subs to see other subs for convoy protection. The limited movement and accidental wars make them pretty useless.

 

[Ataxerxes]

The AI doesn't "mean" to declare war when this happens. This is a well-known bug.

I've had it happen in the middle ages scenario with an invisible unit when I first started playing. It took me a few minutes to figure out why Germany declared war on me with a settler escort.

This makes subs a little problematic to use as scouts. However, there is an upside. You don't get a diplo hit for declaring war, the AI does. Since I might be scouting out my next enemy this can be to your advantage. I'm not sure if, if you had a stack in the opponent's land, the opponent's declaring war by accident using the sub bug prevents it from being ROP-Rape? The might be a further exploit available here. Assemble your SOD and send in a few subs. Anybody know?

 

[splunge the 2nd]

There's a funny story based on this in the stories section. It reads like a Tom Clancy novel but throws light on some ridiculous situations the game system lets occur. Sorry I cna't think of the title.

 

[GamezRule]

Yes, the AI knows where all invisible units are anyway, so they aren't really invisible.

 

[scratchthepitch]

Isn't a way around this bug to give subs "hidden nationality"?

 

[GamezRule]

Well, shouldn't the AI know where the unit is? That would mean that they would intend to declare when they do it. The AI doesn't accidentally run into spears.

 

[Ataxerxes]

Well, shouldn't the AI know where the unit is? That would mean that they would intend to declare when they do it. The AI doesn't accidentally run into spears.

I believe the AI doesn't know where the unit is if it's invisible. They only know after they've moved onto that tile and thus attacked the unit. The AI declared war by accident. It didn't mean for its galley to attack the sub. Even the AI knows better than to attack at .0001% odds.

Spears and most other units are not the same. There the AI intended to declare war. Only invisible units cause the "sub bug." I agree the AI should know it's going to attack, but it doesn't. Sort of like international incidents where generals exceed their authority, like Andrew Jackson going into Spanish Florida. The AI told it's unit to move onto that tile, the unit in question does it without checking it out with the diplomatic corps.

 

[scratchthepitch]

Even the AI knows better than to attack at .0001% odds.

They still have a pretty good chance. Now if you mods spears to be invisible...

 

[Lanzelot]

This bug had been patched in PTW, but was "reintroduced" in C3C. (They probably started development of C3C from an old PTW code branch that didn't have that patch yet... )

So in C3C what I do when I don't want a surprise war: I escort all my subs with a destroyer. Then the AI won't attempt to enter that tile... (Or I leave my subs at home altogether...)

BTW: this also works "the other way around": if you have a ship of yours on a "goto" command that extends over more than one turn, and the route of that goto command happens to go across a tile where an AI submarine is, then you automatically declare war on the AI! (In one game a couple years back I completely ruined my reputation that way... ) If the goto command finishes within the same turn, then the ship stops and a popup asks you "Do you really want to declare war?"

This bug "works" even if your are in a "fixed alliance" with that other nation... So for example in the WW II scenario, Great Brittain and the US can declare war on each other...

The interesting question is: do you get war happiness from that war? I don't know.

 

[ChaosArbiter]

BTW: this also works "the other way around": if you have a ship of yours on a "goto" command that extends over more than one turn, and the route of that goto command happens to go across a tile where an AI submarine is, then you automatically declare war on the AI! (In one game a couple years back I completely ruined my reputation that way... ) If the goto command finishes within the same turn, then the ship stops and a popup asks you "Do you really want to declare war?"

Are you sure? In Age of Imperialism games, I've had ships on multi-turn Auto-Moves that ran over subs and I still got the "Do you Really want to Declare War" popup.

 

[GamezRule]

I got that popup in a regular game once, and I didn't even know the AI built subs, but yeah, Chaos is right.

 

[Lanzelot]

Are you sure? In Age of Imperialism games, I've had ships on multi-turn Auto-Moves that ran over subs and I still got the "Do you Really want to Declare War" popup.

Hmm, could be that this got fixed in a patch. Both incidents that I remember (regular game as well as US declaring war on the Brits in the Pacific scenario) was when I first moved from Vanilla to C3C, which was during winter 2003/2004. I was still playing the unpatched C3C 1.00 back then...

 

[WhiteRabbit]

As I mentioned in another thread, I use subs all the time (lots of them) and I've never encountered this problem ever.

I use Vanilla 1.29 patch. Seems like this bug might be specific to a particular version of the game?

 

[Bartleby]

Yes, Lanzelot mentioned the bug was patched out for PTW and Vanilla, and re-introduced in C3C.