Succesfully Multi-lingual Nations

[Sims2789]

So then why do you support democrats and social welfare?

I have nothing against using my region's money to help improve the lives of people in poorer regions. What I don't approve of is using our money to subsidize red-state corporations (or blue-state corporations for that matter), and then have those states that benefit from out money tell us what we can and cannot do in our bedrooms. Even so, I don't like the Democrats. They're just the lesser of the two evils, and I'm not so stubborn as to vote for a third-party candidate.

 

[Sims2789]

He never ever considered himself Spanish....
Where the hell did you get this crap from?

He supported Spanish rule over the Netherlands at first, but I guess you're right that he wouldn't have considered himself Spanish.

 

[SonicX]

I think what should be asked is not whether there are any successful nations where more than one language is widely spoken, but whether there are any succesful nations where there are two or more sizeable portions of the nation which do not share a common language and thus are not able to communicate with each other except via a translator. I don't think any such nations exist or have ever existed.

I'm not sure what you mean by that ? In my country 60 % speak Dutch, 40 % French ...
If I ever talk to a Walloon though, it's usually in English

 

[Grisu]

I think what should be asked is not whether there are any successful nations where more than one language is widely spoken, but whether there are any succesful nations where there are two or more sizeable portions of the nation which do not share a common language and thus are not able to communicate with each other except via a translator. I don't think any such nations exist or have ever existed.

I don't quite get you. Most countries mentioned in this thread do exactly that. Despite popular myth, the average swiss doesn't speak four languages fluently. Most of us speak only one language like a mother-tongue, and one other national language on "school-level". This level is pretty high, but nowhere near your first language. If I talk to romands or ticinesi, I usually communicate in english with them, since my french sucks and I don't speak italian.

 

[MaisseArsouye]

When I saw the title of this thread, I knew we would talk about Belgium

I agree with most things SonicX said. I would just like to say it's isn't so easy to get with 18% unemployement. BTW, Flanders isn't so easy with pensions. But these kind of discussion is useless.

People who think it's just a matter of language are wrong. Walloons and Flemishs are two different people. Our cultural differences create political differences. So, any discussion at the federal level turns into a Wallonia-Flanders clash.

Actually, most people in Belgium don't want the end of the country. I mean, they wouldn't vote for it. But there's a large majority who accept it or think we can't advoid it, even in Wallonia ! More end more people here think we have to get ready for independance and, maybe, go back to France.

About Brussels, most Walloons don't care about it ! We have enough of this one-way "solidarité francophone" ! If Flanders want Brussels, it's not our problem, just deal it yourself.

 

[SonicX]

That's funny too. The Flemish talk about "annual cash transfers", the Walloons (at least the PS and MR) talk about "federal solidarity", lol.

By the way, your unemployment is because of your government. Limburg also had coal mines and nothing else, but they could convert their economy, Wallonia couldn't because they struggled on too long to save it and now rely on "foreign" aid.

 

[wit>trope]

I don't quite get you. Most countries mentioned in this thread do exactly that. Despite popular myth, the average swiss doesn't speak four languages fluently. Most of us speak only one language like a mother-tongue, and one other national language on "school-level". This level is pretty high, but nowhere near your first language. If I talk to romands or ticinesi, I usually communicate in english with them, since my french sucks and I don't speak italian.

It doesn't matter what level it is, if you are still able to communicate using some common language, be it a mother tongue or second language or third language or whatever, then your country would not be a country that would fit into the class I specified. Only if there were sizable portions of the country which could not communicate with each other without a translator would the country fall into the class I specified. And I maintain there have been no successful countries of that class.

 

[SonicX]

Well, in the west you won't find those countries anymore, except when dealing with old people. In the past, before almost everyone knew English, it was harder in almost every multilingual country.
Still, interlinguistic social contacts remain very limited

 

[Grisu]

It doesn't matter what level it is, if you are still able to communicate using some common language, be it a mother tongue or second language or third language or whatever, then your country would not be a country that would fit into the class I specified. Only if there were sizable portions of the country which could not communicate with each other without a translator would the country fall into the class I specified. And I maintain there have been no successful countries of that class.

that depends: Switzerland WAS such a country in it's beginning. Most people didn't speak a second language back then, so it would qualify. Of course, after some time, we learned to communicate with each other. If you're looking for successful countries that startet that way, and still can't understand each other, you won't succeed, of course. But frankly, I'd be pretty idiotic for any country to even try that, so why you're looking for such countries eludes me....

 

[wit>trope]

that depends: Switzerland WAS such a country in it's beginning.

And I bet if she had stayed that way that she would not have been successful

But frankly, I'd be pretty idiotic for any country to even try that, so why you're looking for such countries eludes me....

I agree it would be idiotic ... but that's just what is happening to certain countries today.

 

[Eniotna]

Belgium has it's fair share of riots during the transformation from a parliamentary monarchy to a federal monarchy. Many towns were disputed and still are ...
The only reason because it's been peaceful is because of the high level of civilization, but in the north the seperatist far right party gains 3 to 5 % every election. A new transformation to complete confederation or even 2 nations (perhaps with a fusion of Wallonia/France and/or Flanders/Holland) looks very likely within 20 years.

Especially the large mentality, culture, language and economic differences are a katalysator for a further splitting of the country. For instance, unemployement is about 10 % higher in Wallonia, the GDP of Flanders resembles that of the USA per capita, the Walloon GDP resembles that of Portugal per capita... annually, there have been financial transfer from the northern Flemish area to the southern Walloon area of no less than 8 to 11 billion euro's, or 2000 € per Flemish inhabitant per year.

The only glue that kept the country together so far, is the bilingual capital Brussels, no one knows what to do with that city and who it belongs to. If Brussels wasn't bilingual or wasn't the capital, Belgium would have followed Czechoslavakia already...

It's a matter of time.

Vast majority of the Belgians are for the unity.

Vlaams Belang is a nationalistic xenophobic Hitler-lover's party and can only beat up his oponents. Prove: yersterday's ijzerwake

N-VA is a ****ty party who only has 5%

 

[SonicX]

Guess we got a leftie in the house
Well, I ain't into that "ijzerwake" stuff, it's ridiculous, I'll give you that.
But the Flemish often are affraid of change. They want more federalization or decentralisation and many want it to a degree of confederalism, but fear the problems that go with a split. It's a big change after all.
But don't go by election numbers. Because I think more than 7 % is ecological, but won't vote Groen! because other stances. Same goes for the N-VA (too simplistic one issue party) and Vlaams Belang (racist issue) ...
For me, reducing taxes is more important at the moment than federalization so last time I voted for the liberals ... I regret it ever since though.

 

[Eniotna]

not really a leftie. I like exagerating things a little.

 

[SonicX]

Appearantly

 

[MaisseArsouye]

Guess we got a leftie in the house

Don't forget most walloon separatists are leftist.

 

[SonicX]

Odd, they have nothing to gain, only money for social programms to lose
There must be little of them then anyway, considering the size of the PS ...

 

[Marla_Singer]

Odd, they have nothing to gain, only money for social programms to lose
There must be little of them then anyway, considering the size of the PS ...

Do you vote for the Vlaams Blok ?

Sorry the Vlaams Belang...

 

[SonicX]

I'm unsure what to vote next because of the coalition forming.
I have my doubt about the VB, but first and foremost, I want to get rid of socialists
But the problem is :
I won't vote socialist or green party (leftist)
When the christian democrats win, they form a coalition with the socialists
When the liberals win, they also form a coalition with the socialists
Those latter 2 center-right parties are like cat and dog ; they can't stand eachother.

I want a right coalition with any leftist party, so strategically I only have one choice ... but I don't trust them entirely, only some of them I'd vote for, others I hate.

So it's a tough choice for a moderate rightist.