Successor to/upgrades for ironclads?

[1940LaSalle]

Yeah, I'm back again: you can tell I'm new and getting more and more into this.

So...I have a number of ironclads, which is fine as long as the other guys have wood ships. Now: I'm assuming there's a way to upgrade that Victorian naval technology to something better (at least a World War I dreadnought, I'd hope), similar to the cannon-->artillery upgrade, but I'm not clear on what the prerequisite(s) might be, or when it could be done (is it only feasible during modern times? after motor transport?). Didn't see anything in the Civilopedia but maybe I didn't look in the right place(s).

 

[Tone]

Sorry but they are a dead end.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single military naval unit that does upgrade. Transports, yes (galley>caravel>galleon>transport) but not fighting ships.

 

[TheOverseer714]

Depends on what version you are playing. In vanilla/PTW, Ironclads are a dead end, with no upgrade. If you are playing Conquests, it will upgrade to Destroyer, but you need the tech(Combustion), and the resource (Oil). I usually wait and build Destroyers, as the tech for Ironclads is optional and Ironclads are so slow (base 3 with a non-seafaring tribe).

 

[Turner]

Cruisers upgrade to AEGIS Cruisers.

 

[Taras Bulba]

well, i would say that to make a decent upgrade path for wooden ships, you would need to add a unit... i would say add the Dreadnought...dreadnaught? oh well... that is a nice transition ship, and iron plated wooden ships.... i think there are a few of those out there.... the it would go

Frigate-->Iron Plated Ship-->Ironclad-->Dreadnought-->Destroyer

 

[TheOverseer714]

The US Coast Guard has a steel-hulled sailing ship called the Eagle used for training officers and would make a great model for the Iron plated ship. Someone could make a mod that features more realistic navies....

 

[Pyrrhos]

well, i would say that to make a decent upgrade path for wooden ships, you would need to add a unit... i would say add the Dreadnought...dreadnaught? oh well... that is a nice transition ship, and iron plated wooden ships.... i think there are a few of those out there.... the it would go

Frigate-->Iron Plated Ship-->Ironclad-->Dreadnought-->Destroyer

Nooooooo!!!

If we stay within the current game and strive for a tad of realism here (BB to DD ) it'd be the following:

* Galley
* Caravel -> Galleon -> Frigate/Privateer -> ironclad
* Transport
* Destroyer
* Cruiser -> Aegis Cruiser
* Battleship

If we could wish for a revision or a Naval modpak it ought to be similar to this, again if we strive for a measure of a reflection of the "real" world:

* Galley
* Caravel -> Galleon -> Ship-of-the-Line (4-3-4)
* Frigate/Privateer -> Ironclad
* Line-of-battle ship (or Pre-Dreadnought, 8-6-4, Industrialization) -> Dreadnought (12-10-4, Steel) -> Battleship (as-is)
* Cruiser -> Aegis cruiser
* Torpedo-boat (6-2-5, Steel), Destroyer (8-4-5), MEKO Frigate (10-8-5, Synthetic Fibres)

The problem with any such change is that there would only be time enough to complete a few pre-Dreadnoughts before it would be possible to upgrade them to Battleships. Unless you want to introduce new techs so that there's a suitable gap. Nah! The game's fine as it is!

 

[Taras Bulba]

The US Coast Guard has a steel-hulled sailing ship called the Eagle used for training officers and would make a great model for the Iron plated ship. Someone could make a mod that features more realistic navies....

wow... i looked that ship up, and it is a very nice picture to base an Iron Plated Ship off of... La Gloire is the ship i found when i looked them up, but the Eagle has alot better of a picture

Nooooooo!!!
If we stay within the current game and strive for a tad of realism here (BB to DD ) it'd be the following:

The problem with any such change is that there would only be time enough to complete a few pre-Dreadnoughts before it would be possible to upgrade them to Battleships. Unless you want to introduce new techs so that there's a suitable gap. Nah! The game's fine as it is!

ummm...... wouldn't that end up that you could build ironclads and stuff like that in the Modern Age, which is what he doesn't want.... i was just giving him upgrade paths so that he can't still build frigates in Modern Era.... since we don't, we can, but don't.

I edit my previous statment of Iron plated ships upgrade to ironclads.... I offer another suggestion

starts at Frigate (2/2/5) 60 shields --> Iron Plated Frigate (4/4/5) 75 shields Steam Power --> Dreadnought (10/6/5) 100 shields Steel/Refining --> Battleship (18/12/5) 200 shields
then...
ironclads (5/6/3) 90 shields Steam Power --> Destroyer (12/8/8) 120 shields Combustion

then, that way all the older units are not buildable, but they have good upgradable paths. Iron Plated Frigate is weaker than Ironclads, which they were, but is quite a bit less shields, and is quite a bit faster. They also have seperate upgrade paths

*note-all game made units stats are NOT changed ***conquests***

 

[Aceman101]

Nooooooo!!!

If we stay within the current game and strive for a tad of realism here (BB to DD ) it'd be the following:

* Galley
* Caravel -> Galleon -> Frigate/Privateer -> ironclad
* Transport
* Destroyer
* Cruiser -> Aegis Cruiser
* Battleship

It's actually like this....

* Galley
* Caravel -> Galleon -> Frigate/Privateer
* Transport
* Ironclad -> Destroyer
* Cruiser -> Aegis Cruiser
* Battleship

Ironclads upgrade to destroyers. And Frigates and privateers upgrade to nothing.

And also I was sure Caravels upgrade path was like this...

* Curragh -> Galley -> Caravel -> Galleon -> Transport
* Ironclad -> Destroyer
* Cruiser -> Aegis Cruiser
* Battleship

That should be it.

So to sum it all up it would be:

* Curragh -> Galley -> Caravel -> Galleon -> Transport
* Ironclad -> Destroyer
* Cruiser -> Aegis Cruiser
* Battleship
* Carrier
* Sub -> Nuclear Sub


This is not directed at you Pyrrhos:
What are you guys talking about dreadnaughts and steel platted ships?

 

[Pyrrhos]

(cough)

Once upon a time... ( )

For some strange reason, the navies of the world had continued building wooden ships-of-the-line such as the HMS Victory (which was simply an improvement upon the revolutionary Sovereign-of-the-Seas of 1637) up until the mid-19th century. These ships fired round shot albeit the advances in gunnery really should have made them obsolete decades before. They even installed steam engines in these wooden ships! Then the French built a frigate called Gloire (1859?) that had her wooden hull plated over with 5" thick iron which made her impervious to every naval gun then in use.

Now followed a period of experimentation that saw battleships of increasingly fantastic designs - central turret battleships, barbette battleships, citadel battleships etc. This included some of the most bizarre ships ever designed such as the completely round Russian "battleship" the Novgorod or the French Hoche which, for the comfort lavished upon its officers, was known as "Le Grand Hôtel" and would have capsized if at sea in anything but a flat calm. By the early 1890s, designs had stabilised around a ship with four heavy guns in twin turrets, one fore one aft, plus medium calibre artillery of about a dozen guns in casemates. This type was called line-of-battle ships to differentiate between them and the wooden ship-of-the line. This type of battleship is known today as the pre-Dreadnought battleship.

In 1903, Cuniberti proposed an “All-big-gun Battleship for the Royal Navy”. The first “dreadnoughts” designed were the USS South Carolina-class but the first such completed was HMS Dreadnought in 1906. The naval race between Great Britain and Germany involved two types of capital ship; the battleship and the much faster but less armoured battle-cruiser. The race culminated with two designs - the British Queen Elizabeth-class super-dreadnoughts, powerfully armed and armoured with a speed not much inferior to the earlier battle-cruisers, and the German Mackensen-class battle-cruiser which to all intents and purposes was the fast battleship that the QE-class had not quite managed.

This, in brief, is the history of the development of the “modern” battleship from the first ironclad to the last behemoths, the DKM Bismarck, the IJN Yamato and the USS Iowa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:LaGloirePhotograph.jpg
FRA La Gloire 1859

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/aj.cashmore/russia/battleships/novgorod/novgorod1.jpg
Russian Novgorod

http://www.postcardman.net/136405.jpg
FRA Hoche

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:HMS_Resolution_%28Royal_Sovereign-class_battleship%29.jpg
HMS Resolution

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Uss_south_carolina_bb.jpg
USS South Carolina


PS. Sorry about the ! It’s just such a cute graemlin I couldn’t resist…

 

[Aceman101]

No, your stories are interesting, as long as you stay on topic (Um, Pyrrhos!)
But I think you were sort off, because this is about naval units.

What does graemlin mean?

P.S Don't 'ya just love the new smiley !

 

[Pyrrhos]

Graemlin = Smiley









PS. -->

 

[Aceman101]

Ooh, that explains it.

Ok that has got to stop now!

 

[Pyrrhos]

What has to stop?

 

[Aceman101]

Exactly that!

 

[Marsden]

... that is a nice transition ship, and iron plated wooden ships.... i think there are a few of those out there.... the it would go

Frigate-->Iron Plated Ship-->Ironclad-->Dreadnought-->Destroyer

What is an Iron Plated ship if it isn't an Ironclad? You know, clad in iron plates?

The first ironclads to fight each other in the Americas were the USS Monitor and CSS Virginia. The Virginia was a frigate known as the USS Merrimac, captured by the CSA and striped of its masts and iron plates were clad to the sides and deck. Then an engine was installed for propulsion. Note the little unit design for the ironclad is the "cheesebox on a raft" Monitor style, not the longer broadside like the Virginia.

 

[Taras Bulba]

What is an Iron Plated ship if it isn't an Ironclad? You know, clad in iron plates?

yeah, they were very similar, but Ironclads could take down an Iron Plated Ship because of the shape of the Ironclad. An Iron Plated Ship is just an enhanced frigate ***a frigate with Iron Plating on the sides of the hull and run by Steam Power, which i guess i forgot to mention ***

Thusly, it would be faster because the design was much more efficently made, but wouldn't be as powerful as the Ironclad.

This is the French iron hulled ship, La Gloire that fought the British iron hulled ship, HMS Warrior

Spoiler :

As you can see, it was run by steam power, comes at steam power, and is faster than the traditional Ironclad, but looks completely different, but hey, i think that some of you adults would know more about this than me.... im only in 8th grade, learning ancient world history

 

[Aceman101]

Interesting stuff, Taras Bulba.

 

[Marsden]

First, no need to be Taras Bulba. I just thought you were refering to ironclads that were retrofitted from existing ships and purpose built ironclads. I think what you showed it an iron/steel hulled warship, that would come after the ironclad, not before. But I'll look in to it, thank you.