Suggestion: Government/ideology overhaul and Great Philosophers

[Hertingen]

Hi

I am new here and created this account to share this thought that has been brewing since easter. I sometimes scan the boards on here to keep track of civ news, but for the time being I have little time for video games and even less so video game forums, so be nice if I am completely unoriginal and this has been discussed before on the boards in some shape or form. If this is unrelated or something, I want to apologize to the mods already for my ignorance to forum rules. My opinions are based on some hundred hours in Civ6, but as a long time player since 3. Also, forgive me for the long post.

Here's the thought: what if the game had a new Great Person type: Great Philosophers. The Great Philosopher could help introduce large expansions to areas of the Civ games that in my view has the potential to be many more times interesting: Diplomatic Victories, ideologies, policies and governments, as well as making the civic tree more interesting. Some of the ideas might be vague, so my hope is to start a discussion and hopefully develop something through the discussion it brings, and that Firaxis picks it up somehow.

First off, I imagine a complete overhaul of the government and ideology system. In my mind, ideologies should play more like religions do in the current game, with way more bonuses and penalties, not to mention different gameplay styles based on what you choose, especially in the late game. I know that it is possible in the current game to declare ideological and religious casus bellis, but it's kind of weird how you have religious combat, but little to no ideological combat among the Civs, or as a problem domestically in your civ. Why are there no threatening ideologies spreading around your civilization, or the world for that matter? Where is the dangerous demagogue and the inspiring speaker? I am not thinking about a return to the CIV5 system either, I like the policy cards and slots. What I am suggesting is a new ideology system that impacts the governments and policies way more, as well as forces you to make important, long-lasting decisions to a much larger degree.

Ideologies and governments feel like buttons I press with plusses and minuses, not as an ideology with very serious, important impact. Imagine if you could use spies to spread propaganda in support of your Communist workers revolution, or spread your liberal ideas through the radios and televisions (culture)? What about an ideological/cultural boycott system? Censorship of certain political views, both locally and globally? Imagine how cool it would be if you could actually experience civil wars/mass rebellion like you do in the Dramatic Ages mode, but due to deep ideological conflict. This would make paying attention to the spread of ideologies important.

This is where the great philosopher comes in. In some ways, it is also logical to keep philosophers as part of the Great Artists (Machiavelli) and Great Scientists (Hypatia). But what I am suggesting is a completely new type of Great Person. They may, by all means, still impact both science and civics/culture, but another logical use would be to governments and ideologies.

I am well aware that the domain of politics and the domain of philosophy in many ways are very different, but it would not be too far off if the Great Philosopher provided your civilization with unique policy cards that only your civilization may use. Maybe Great Philosophers even can found certain ideologies/government types unique to the civ that acquired the Great Philosopher, or special variations of universally available idoelogies? Maybe the Great Philosophy ideology can be acquired by other players through spread, for good or bad? It could also make sense that acquiring some Philosophers will lock others, as they are not compatible philosophically/ideologically. It's also logical that Great Philosophers could give inspirations to civics in the civics tree. Perhaps Great Philosophers, either in the same way as religious units or by creating a "Great Inspiration" work, can spread ideologies/ideas the same way Tourism works, as well as through trade?

Perhaps this is a bit too much with the current systems in the game, and that Ideology should be a completely new system implemented with Civ7 where Great Philosophers is a way to interact and grant bonuses/disadvantages, just like the other Great People with the current systems?

So what do you think?

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

You've taken some of the best ideas around here and molded the best parts of them into a template that would work extremely well in the game if implemented properly.

You, sir, have earned a like.

 

[Hertingen]

You've taken some of the best ideas around here and molded the best parts of them into a template that would work extremely well in the game if implemented properly.

You, sir, have earned a like.

Thank you! Cool to hear. We'll see if the mods keeps this post here or moves it to the "smaller suggestions" one. I was hoping I had enough meat for it to deserve it's own thread.

What my post is missing is an answer for how the Diplomatic Victory could work different with the suggested implementations, as well as how the civics tree could *be more interesting* other than making the Great Philosopher provide inspirations the same way Great Scientists do. Hope to see some discussion.

Another thing: Great Philosophers could of course work alongside religions as well! Perhaps Ideologies could work just like religions currently do: as a system where you mix and match different bonuses to suit your playstyle and strategy. It would of course be different enough from the policies to make it worthwhile.

The picture I have in my head is late-game ideological Superpowers and their alliances with the not-superpower Civs, like during the Cold War, or even complete ideological chaos "early late game" or "late mid-game" where everyone tries to work towards victory while trying to keep the population on your side sharing your goals and wishes.

 

[InsidiousMage]

Three big issues with this.

1)District bloat. Adding another district not something the game needs right now and the only way to get GP is through districts.
2a)This is probably not something the AI will handle well. Just look at the religions the AI creates. You will occasionally see some synergies but it's mostly a jumble of random beliefs.
2b)Balancing it will probably be a big issue. Again, with religion there are a few standout beliefs (Work Ethic, Feed the World, Tithe, Pilgrimage, Wats, Crusade) and some okay stuff if you are going for a particular victory (Pagodas, Religious Colonization, Holy Orders) and a lot of mediocre stuff that only the AI picks. It will probably be really easy for the player to pick a synergistic ideology while the AI is stuck with a confusing mishmash of whatever.
3)The game doesn't really need anything new but a refinement of what is already in the game. Stuff like agendas and grievances are interesting but could clearly use some refinement to work better.

 

[Hertingen]

Three big issues with this.

1) District bloat. Adding another district not something the game needs right now and the only way to get GP is through districts.
2a) This is probably not something the AI will handle well. Just look at the religions the AI creates. You will occasionally see some synergies but it's mostly a jumble of random beliefs.
2b) Balancing it will probably be a big issue. Again, with religion there are a few standout beliefs (Work Ethic, Feed the World, Tithe, Pilgrimage, Wats, Crusade) and some okay stuff if you are going for a particular victory (Pagodas, Religious Colonization, Holy Orders) and a lot of mediocre stuff that only the AI picks. It will probably be really easy for the player to pick a synergistic ideology while the AI is stuck with a confusing mishmash of whatever.
3) The game doesn't really need anything new but a refinement of what is already in the game. Stuff like agendas and grievances are interesting but could clearly use some refinement to work better.

First off, I could have made it a lot clearer in my first post that I acknowledge this might be too much to add in the current build of the game, and is more relevant for Civ 7.

To your points:

1) I see what you mean, but I do not agree that this has to be a problem. You can easily include Great Philosophers in the current districts/buildings and mechanics of the game. It could for example make a lot of sense to go for an Ancient Greece inspiration: you build a City Square/Agora/Forum in your City Center that produces GP points. It could also be an alternative to tie it to the Government Plaza, to make that district even more important than it already is. For example by adding an Agora building there, or making the district itself produce GP points. Another way to do it is to connect it to the Campus or Theater Square. Perhaps you have to choose between a scientific oriented Library or a philosophical oriented Podium, where the difference goes toward what kind of GP points it produces. Maybe even going for two different directions could be possible, i.e. having to choose between a Library and Podium, University or Akademos (like Plato's academy) and so on. One could do something similar with the Theater Square.

2a) I see that and I hope the AI will improve notably in a new Civ game. But hey, it could be fun for MP and single player games either way.

2b) Could a solution be to create generic ideologies to choose from, like we have today, but with some added features? My original post opened for having certain, unique policy cards in Government or "ideas" in the religion-like "Ideology builder" unlock through Great Philosophers. That could work well both with a system where you pick "readily made" ideologies that you improve upon, as well as completely "self-made" ideologies. I am just throwing this out there.

3) I agree that what Civ needs is a refinement of what is already there, as well as AI improvements. If Civ7 delivers only that, it will be a major step forward. That does not disqualify some incarnation of my idea in an expansion or patch for a new Civ game, though. With that said, I will be very disappointed if the next Civ game does not deliver improvements to the diplomacy system. Even Total War managed to improve greatly upon those aspects in their Three Kingdoms (which I have not cared for, but I liked that feature). Why shouldn't and why can't the Civ series? Civ7 needs to refine mechanics already in place, I agree, but it should also innovate some areas.

I believe diplomacy, politics/ideologies/governments and the late game is one of the key aspects to improve upon for a new Civ. To be honest, it's kind of frustrating how all games end around turn 250, and I think Civ could have gained from making the game a bit more longer stretched. That requires the late-game to be more fun, content rich and predictably unpredictable. Those hundreds of turns you never get to play once you get averagely good in the game can certainly be filled with more features to make it worthwhile and fun to play long games. I for one never get used to having mars projects in the 1800's....