Suggestion: Immortal&Lich change, new UUs for Sheaim/Luichurp/Scions

[ricolikesrice]

Since this is a bit too big for the bug thread I thought it may (hopefully) deserve its own topic and greatly look forward to constructive criticism, pointing out flaws, your opinions and even better suggestions. Here goes:

Heya, with patch I ahwaric is making it possible for mages (and priests) to upgrade to immortals. Imho a very welcome change that I look greatly forward too since I personally always felt immortals (except the vampire lord UU) were a bit “lacking” (not necessarily gameplay- but flavourwise) for how late-game they are.

As already posted in the bug report thread however I think it would be great if one would take this one step further and also makes archmages able to upgrade into immortals. Mind you we re talking about something that will only affect you very late game as it requires 2 very expensive techs (strength of will AND divine essence).

My main reasoning behind this was that I was always annoyed by lichdom being the only way to get 8 casters who can learn & use 3rd sphere spells which meant two things:
a) if you want to play a good civ you either play against flavour (empyrean following amurites using liches ? ljosfalar using liches ? etc. etc.) or you play with half the magic you could be playing with if you didn’t give a crap about flavour.
b) Death Mana , arguably one of the most powerful spellspheres thanks to great summons with death affinity & the tower of necromancy further boosting those summons, was even more awesome than just merely being awesome.

So I rooted for this change with the intention of Immortals, rather then liches, being the 2nd batch of four 3rd sphere caster for any civ. Liches would obviously still be kept, however not as their own unit but a promotion that grants different graphics, difference race(undead) and improved combat strength. Heck, for those pure evil civs, you could with this change actually have 8 liches, 4 of them immortal and with even higher strength and access to melee promotions.
So its in no way a “nerf” to liches except in that you would now no longer be able to get eight 3rd sphere casters as soon as you researched strength of will but needed divine essence for that.

However when Magister Cultuum replied, I noticed this has one big flaw: some civs (Sheaim, Luichurp and Scions come to mind, did I forget any?) DON’T have immortals and thus this change would mean that these civs - who all have quite a bit of magic in their flavour – would be limited to four 3rd sphere casters only whereas everyone else had 8.

Now how to fix that, I thought the best way would be giving those 3 civs their own unique Immortal UUs further adding flavour and uniqueness to those civs:

1. Sheaim:

Immortal-Replacement: Devourer of Dreams (requires divine essence)

Graphics used: Eater of Dreams, if possible bigger and slightly different colouring to differentiate both units from each other.

Cannot be built, must be upgraded from a Eater of Dreams minimum lvl 12

Stats: arcane unit, 7 base strength + 4 unholy, 2 movement points
starts with channelling I,II,III, 1 free promotion and immortality (1shot promotion)

Can use Consume Soul (if Consume Soul is used by Devourer it also adds the immortality promotion in addition to the normal effects that Eater of Dreams get, idea is from Magister Cultuum and i really like it )

Idea behind this: What seperates this from other immortals is that the devourer remains an arcane unit and thus cannot get all the promotions that the melee-immortals get, neither can it
use bronze/iron/mithril weapons. Also the immortality is not “permanent” but lost upon getting killed – these drawbacks are made up by higher base strength than regular immortals, faster movement & a free promotion (as normal for arcane unit upgrades).

2. Scions:

Immortal-Replacement: Wraithguard (requires divine essence)

Graphics used: those of the scion archmage UU but 3 of them instead of a single guy

Cannot be built, requires 3 of the scions archmage UU on the same tile to use the (new)
“form wraithguard” ability – you obviously lose those 3 in the process (incl. their promotions in the process of binding they forget their previous experiences or something like that)

Stats: disciple unit, 7 base strength + 2 unholy, 1 movement point, immortal
starts with channelling I,II,III

Can get the necromancy promotion after killing a living unit (like other scions arcane UUs)

Idea behind this: Main difference between this and other immortals is the process that they are created though to be honest the idea came to me as a workaround for having a look that seperates it from the normal archmage UU without requiring new art and a workaround to keep the ability to gain necromancy with killing living units.

3. Luichurp

Since Luichurp already have the Bonegolem as immortal replacement but this one doesn’t fit my purpose for a 2nd batch of 3rd sphere casters….

New Unit: (of course also national limit of 4 like other immortals): Runesmith
(requires divine essence and strength of will )

Graphics used: dwarven archmage + golem as a pair ( like hunter + animal)

Cannot be built, must be upgraded from a luichurp archmage of minimum lvl 12

Stats: arcane unit, 12 base strength, 1 movement, immortal
starts with channelling I,II,III, 1 free promotion

Idea behind this: the golem is the bodyguard of the caster but since it still remains an arcane unit i.e. doesn’t have the benefit of getting melee promotions like other immortals I decided to give him the highest base strength and 1 free promotion to make up for it. (similar to Sheaim Devourers but those have slightly lower str because they can also use consume soul ).


So what do you guys think ?

-Do you prefer to keep things as they are (needing death mana if you want eight 3rd sphere casters) ?
-And if not would you prefer a much easier/simpler “just make archmages have a national limit of 8 and change lichdom to a promotion “ route to deal with this issue ?
-Do you think my suggestion would make immortal(UU)´s too strong even though its very lategame ?
-Did I miss any civ that also doesn’t have immortals ?
-Are the immortal UU suggestions good or is there better alternatives ?

 

[Plopp]

Those are some good suggestions. The one I like the best is the making lichdom a promo idea. Though I'll tweak it so that liches would count towards archmage national units and make the promo give him a good str boost of some sort OR give them the Losha Valas immortality effect (1shot immortality).


I dont like the concept of an "army" of archmages, flavourwise. Tons of mages fine, but I'd like archmages to be some rare sort of mageleaders. Yea I know, they're pretty rare as it is but still I wouldn't mind if they were even more rare.

4 archmages are alot the way I see it and if you go the right civic/religion way you can get some archmage hero on top of that. Maybe make amurite's and maybe Sheim(?) able to get 2 more or somthing. Or better still, make it so some "not so magic-ish" civs only get 2 .

 

[readercolin]

I like the idea, but I have changed lichdom to be a promotion that applies 1 shot immortality and +2 death combat, and changed the archmage cap to 8 in my versions. In some cases (like say the dovollio or the calibam), they already have a very flavorful immortal UU.

Perhaps it would be better to keep immortals how they are, but allow archmages and high priests to take a promotion at level 10 or something like that that grants a strength bonus and immortality (for example, an archmage of level 10 takes the promotion immortality, unlocked at divine essense, that grants +5 strength and immortality). This could become unavailable to liches, either as a promotion or as a unit. Lichdom would however come significantly earlier, showing how it is the quick path to immortality, but not necessarily the best.

-Colin

 

[Opera]

I think Lich should still count toward the Archmage limit and I think Archmages shouldn't be able to upgrade to Immortals. 4 Archmages is 4 Archmages; Immortals upgraded from Mages will already have Channeling II...

Or maybe a unique mechanic for some civs, like the Sheaim and/or the Amurites.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I still prefer my way:

Liches have the same unitcombat as Archmages, thus counting towards the limit on how many you may have at once

Liches are inherently immortal (just like the Immortal unit)

Liches have +1 Death Affinity

Liches start with Channeling 1-3 (so they get promotions based on the mana you have when lichdom is cast), Vile Touch, Unholy Taint, and Extension I.

The Lichdom spell requires the Tower of Necromancy, and moves the owner's alignment 10 towards evil in broader alignments.



Amurite Wizards may upgrade to either Archmages or Immortals. Having essentially 8 immortal archmages is too much, but giving Amurite Immortals normal Mage abilities seems appropriate.


Sheaim Eaters of Dreams' Consume Soul ability adds the Immortality promotion. It can also be used to raze enemy cities, and possibly to extend the duration of the unit's summons. I might even give them Dimensional Affinity.


Ritualists can upgrade to either Profanes, Eidola, or Archmages, but not to Paladins or Druids. (Similarly, Confessors may become Priors, Paladins, or Knights but not to Eidola or Druids; Vicars may become Luridi, Paladins, or Druids but not Eidola; Stonewardens may become Runekeepers, Paladins, or Druids but not Eidola; Cultists may become Speakers, Druids, or Eidola but not Paladins; and Shadows gain the ability to become Eidola.)

 

[Ahwaric]

Some ideas I like, some a bit less. But I agree, the change is needed.

Heya, with patch I ahwaric is making it possible for mages (and priests) to upgrade to immortals.

Actually it is just priests (it requires divine techs after all) and amurite wizards as immortal casters fit amurites. Other mages are currently blocked - should that be changed.

Imho a very welcome change that I look greatly forward too since I personally always felt immortals (except the vampire lord UU) were a bit “lacking” (not necessarily gameplay- but flavourwise) for how late-game they are.

I felt it too. Spartatoi/phalanxes are epitome of melee line, while immortals are quite different. Plus I always liked multiclassing and with this change you can have interesting immortal builds at the end. In test game I got scout upgraded to devout (as always, playing elohim... ), then to priest of empyrean and finally immortal. I Had a lot of fun with it

As already posted in the bug report thread however I think it would be great if one would take this one step further and also makes archmages able to upgrade into immortals.

I do not like tier 4 units upgrading to another tier 4 units. Also, immortal archmage is a bit much. The key in lvl 4 units is final specialization, you can't have two and I like it.

My main reasoning behind this was that I was always annoyed by lichdom being the only way to get 8 casters who can learn & use 3rd sphere spells which meant two things:

That will have to change. I am not sure either by extra promotion or unit using the same unitclass. I think MC version is better - it still counts for unit limit while making some things easier.
So, some ideas on new lich. Permanently immortal (soul jars, immortality nicely reflects this). Extra +1 death strength.
Requirements - death mana or tower of necromancy. the change is quite powerfull so it has to have some requirements. Or maybe risk that instead of transformed, archamge will end up dead. And the risk is gone with ToN?

ljosfalar using liches ?

That one is easy, Baelnorn. But in general, I agree.

b) Death Mana , arguably one of the most powerful spellspheres thanks to great summons with death affinity & the tower of necromancy further boosting those summons, was even more awesome than just merely being awesome.

We have a problem here. Death magic is powerfull. But liches are connected to death and it is hard to disconnect them

So its in no way a “nerf” to liches except in that you would now no longer be able to get eight 3rd sphere casters as soon as you researched strength of will but needed divine essence for that.

I do not think 8 archmages is that good anyway. Even with extra tech.

However when Magister Cultuum replied, I noticed this has one big flaw: some civs (Sheaim, Luichurp and Scions come to mind, did I forget any?) DON’T have immortals

Scions - if they do not have immortals, they should have
Luchurp - how about moving bone golem to berserker slot, add proper dwarven immortal (quite fits the civ flavour I think) and steal clockwork golem for mechanos?
Sheaim - MC change to eater of dreams is not a bad one.

That is all for now, I will think about it and probably post more later

 

[ricolikesrice]

thanks for the comments.

one thing though, amurites CAN already get 2nd sphere spellcasting immortals since their champion UU (battlemages) can upgrade to immortals. they can also get spellcasting knights & spellcasting paladins/eidolons thanks to their champion UU having channelling I & II.

maybe thats why i overread that only wizards (i.e. amurite mages - i initially thought/misread ALL mages ) will be eglible for upgrading to immortals, heh, because when playing amurites my immortals have been 2nd sphere casters since battlemages were introduced as champion UUs.

anyhow, the more i think about it -- leaving things as they are regarding immortals + your priest change , but just changing lichdom to a promotion so that it doesnt double your casters anymore ... is probably the best.

instead maybe just make it so that the Arcane Trait increases the limit for archmages from 4 to 6 or even 8 ? i always thought arcane trait could use a small boost

about liches i think +2 death or unholy damage and changing race to undead is enough for the promotion. giving them also affinity and immortality as some suggested makes them completely superior to archmages which really isnt necessary considering how death already is a much more usefull spell sphere than many others...

IF archmages need immortality i d rather see it as a Spirit III spell (one shot immortality, only works on caster - not whole stack) than making Death even better.

 

[Valkrionn]

The Scions use the Abomination as an Immortal UU... Not Immortal per se, but can be built directly.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I don't see a need to change Bone Golems, except maybe to make them a bit stronger to make up for the lack of promotions. (Adding the ability to retrofit golems with promotions based on the golem boosting buildings would be god too.) If you were to let Archmages upgrade to immortals then you would kind of have to change it, but I don't think that is a good idea. Generally the ability to build an immortal unit directly is more useful.


Eight archmages always seemed like too much to me. I prefer to make Liches just be more useful than archmages. I actually think they should probably have lower base strength, but death affinity.

What would people think of making a 0 immobile strength Phylactery unit count as the Lich's master, so that the lich is almost unbeatable fighting out in the field but is automatically killed if an enemy manages to destroy the item that holds his soul? You could also make it so that rather than being a true immortal in the classical sense a Lich is reborn wherever his Phylactery is. (I would say to make it equipment, but I don't think that the connection between the Lich and Phylactery could be maintained when the latter is in promotion form. Some of my older ideas related to Phylacteries required only allowing one lich at once since the connection couldn't be tracked.)



I don't really play FF that much, and am not really a fan of new units like Battlemages or new buildings like Wizards Halls. The Amurites may have the most and strongest mages, but not everything about their society is magical. Those with notable magical potential are taken from their families early in life and trained as adepts, leaving the commoners fairly mundane, even if after Govannon most know a couple minor tricks. In my version the Amurites have a more lore appropriate Cave of the Ancestors, which lets arcane units risk death in order to get free promotion picks. There is also a small chance that a unit could become The Caswallawn. (Usually I implement this as a promotion, but I may change it to a new tier 5 arcane unit only the Amurites can get.) I also prefer Govannon's teach spellcasting ability to be passive, working though a promotion with a pyPerTurn call. He would teach your armies much more slowly, but his students would often gain that same promotion and so carry on his work of sharing magic with the common man. There should be a small chance that some students learn higher tiers of magic, and Govannon and his students should avoid teaching those who are already a part of the magical hierarchy.

 

[Quetz]

I always hated the FFH lich mechanic. My random suggestion is replace it with a spell from Dominions 3 (I just always liked the name of it): Twiceborn: Grants oneshot immortality to unit. No extra mages. And either remove Liches cuz they are corny anyways or make them some kind of UU (ie you get one for buliding the tower of necromancy or some such)

 

[UNIT 666]

It'd be awesome to see Liches implemented the way Magister describes!

I don't quite understand how it would work, though. Would you upgrade a unit to the phylactery, build it in a city, or summon it using a spell?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

If I went the phylactery route, it would probably be summoned by the Lichdom spell, which is what makes the Lich in the first place. Since it was summoned by the Lich, a <PythonPostCombatLost> or <PythonOnDeath> call could be used to find the phylactery's summoner and kill it. The Lich could have a similar call to move it to the phylactery's tile upon death.

One possible hiccup in this plan is that Xienwolf's code might kill the summoned (slave) unit when the summoner (master) dies. That might require a more complicated code, where the phylactery is made to count as the Lich's master. It wouldn't really make a difference from the player's perspective though. If it is handled that was I don't think the phylactery would need a <PythonPostCombatLost> or <PythonOnDeath> call, as the reason the method was used was because the master's death would automatically kill the slave. That might allow the Lich to live on for a single turn without a phylactery though, iirc.