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Suggestion to improve 'Imperialistic' trait

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by spiffamoo, Nov 15, 2006.

  1. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    I think this would be a nice addition to the Imperialistic trait. WW really makes its presence felt on the higher difficulties (where happiness caps are low), and often you've already won by the late game.
     
  2. bonafide11

    bonafide11 Worker

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    How about we leave imperialist the way it is? It's a perfectly strong trait as it is. The earlier great generals are huge. If you create a good military city with one general in it, all units from it come out with 5 experience points before theocracy or vassalage.

    Since most of my military production is done only from a couple cities anyway, a great general in my military cities becomes more powerful than aggressive, which only gives the 10% strength to melee/gunpowder units.

    Imperialist is fine the way it is...
     
  3. DigitalBoy

    DigitalBoy Emperor

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    Two promotions out the gate? Oh, snap! :eek:

    Aggressive gives two promotions without having to already be in a war, extends the benefit to every city, and doesn't require you to waste a general.
     
  4. kniteowl

    kniteowl Pirate Captain :P

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    Yeah About WW, which bonus would be more balanced assuming I was able to Mod it for testing? -25% or -50%?

    From a Theory perspective, -25% seems kind of low, most of my early Wars are fast and short, I have my Targets... Capture so and so City or Cities or Pillage Civ A into the Stone Age and and not allow them to work any tiles by fortifying in defensive tiles eg- forest or forested hills (I Especially do this alot with The Inca with their UU, even on Low level when you declare war on them early they beeline to Archery and build archers... kinda Stupid for the AI but ah well)

    Anywayz back to topic... -25% seems kind of weak because most of the early wars are generally short and you wouldn't benefit from this bonus untill you have at least 4 unhappy citizens. You may as well play as Charismatic for the Extra Happiness which would immediately Cancel out the first Unhappy Citizen. It may prove to be benfical after a bit of time in the game like the Middle ages and onwards, which is kind of late. Well you can always combined the bonus with Pyramids using Police State (-75% WW) but Pyramids are expensive... unless you're lucky enough to capture it from the Civ that built it.

    -50% may prove to be overpowered, I mean if you ever get hold of the Pyramids, and switch to Police State, you'd never get WW because it (-100%) and in the late game you can always build Jails and Mt Rushmore and not run PS and preferably run the Economic Civcs US and Rep. Well the Pyramids are difficult to get on higer levels and you can't war forever you're bound to run out of units or unable to maintain your economy because of high Maintenance cost, but yoru could possibly exploit it by staying at war with your opponent forever, while they suffer from WW, you're happily defending your turf and improving your economy like there's no war at all but there is the oppotunity cost of running a high Civics cost.

    This will definitely require testing and find out which bonus is more balanced

    Maybe I Should also include Cheap Jails with the -25% bonus or Remove the Cheap Settlers wit the -50% bonus.

    Well We'll find out if I can find someone who can Mod in WW bonus to Traits :S...
     
  5. scy12

    scy12 Deity

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    You have to consider that Aggressive - Imperialistic and Charismatic Imperialistic Leaders have both benefits. We also have to consider that Leaders are a combination of two traits , a Ub and a UU . By "fixing" one "weak" trait we may be overpowering some of the Leaders instead.

    Now the way i see it - 25 WW is enough early on and cheap jails and the 25% WW (in addition to pyramids) are enough later. It looks like a good idea.
     
  6. Watiggi

    Watiggi Deity

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    Why not just make Imp have a +x amount of xp for each unit built. So an Imp leader with a city which has a Barracks would get 3 + x xp for each unit built in that city. Hmmm. Maybe +2xp. That'll tip them over the next-promotion edge. Barracks + Imp trait results in a unit with 5xp being built. Simple. Straight forward. Can it be made by any chance? Maybe make a +2xp version and a +5xp version for testing purposes.

    For Genghis, the +2xp version would allow the Keshiks to have +11xp (3 promotions) with Barracks, Ger and Vassalage. This would make them them more balanced with the Charismatic leaders as Genghis's mounted units would be on par with Charismatic leaders mounted units (at least when they're built). With Cyrus, +2xp would help but wouldn't be game breaking. Cyrus cannot build Barracks fast and so will not benefit too early. The Immortals would be built with +2xp and so would be 2xp away from 2nd promotion. With a Barracks they would also get 5xp and 2 promotions when built. Stables would make it 7xp. I don't think it would be game breaking either and it overall would give the trait a better promoted standing army (essentially building 2 promotioned units before civics are used) and as a result doesn't revolve around the 'must go to war' mentality. For other not so waring leaders (ie, Vicky), they can make a better promoted standing army with 2 promotions rather than one with just the barracks. What do you think?
     
  7. Yakk

    Yakk Cheftan

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    *sign* -- Imperalist doesn't mean "warmonger", it menas "rules over other kingdoms". That is what an empire is.
     
  8. Lucky Charms

    Lucky Charms The Contender

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    I would give Imperialistic civs an additional trade route to simulate the rule that was held over other civilisations/nations.
     
  9. kniteowl

    kniteowl Pirate Captain :P

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    Well What kind of bonus would you give to the Imp Trait that reflects what it means and still keep is balanced, If you've reed the entire thread, you would of seen someone put forward a Vassal State Bonus, but the problem is the trait would be useless if you played a game with no Vassal States. I'd personally prefer a bonus that doesn't require a Vassal under the Imp trait.
     
  10. Watiggi

    Watiggi Deity

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    Name some imperialistic civilizations in history that don't have a strong military? A militarily weak imperialistic nation doesn't seem right - it almost contradicts itself. The military must be stronger at the base over other nations if you think about it. This gives them a firmer base on which to build an empire (through either war or peace - either way, it requires a stronger than normal military). The +2xp bonus allows the player to choose either a war path or a peace path. A lot of the other suggestions here force a person to play in a certain mode - either war or peace - and thus really don't support different ways of building an empire. A +2xp gives a firm base for the player to play either way. Play a peaceful game with the Romans. Then you might understand how the Praetorian (a strong unit) comes into creating a solid empire the peaceful way.

    What would be the other bonuses though? GG bonus? Settler bonus? Remove the GG bonus? Remove the settler bonus? What?

    Hmmm. Is it at all possible to have this made for experimentation purposes? I think it's beyond my modding ability as I don't think there's any xp adjustment in the traits tags.

    [edit: Can a leader with a certain trait get a free wonder at startup? If so, then a basic model can be made where the imp leaders gets a free Pentagon just to simulate the +2xp in order to see.]
     
  11. scy12

    scy12 Deity

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    There are some mods in this thread and i think some of the posters here will be happy to help you , also . The 150% General emergence Mod i played wasn't broken but it was sufficient boost and allowed me quite early to have many of my cities come with +2 experience and academies . My point is that just providing the + experience bonus is too similar to the Aggressive trait . The Aggressive works always on peace but this is imperialistic ... To have Generals emerge you must be fighting wars , conquering new lands which is what imperialistic is about.
     
  12. Robotron 2084

    Robotron 2084 Chieftain

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    A very interesting topic! I too think imperialistic is a bit underpowered.

    How about this then:

    200% great general emergence for fights outside your empire's borders
    and 150% for fights within your country.

    Great generals can found Military Academy as soon as Monarchy.

    Jails come with Code of Laws. Double production speed.

    Cities immune to rioting/culture flip. Newly conquered enemy cities don't riot.

    What do you think?
     
  13. Watiggi

    Watiggi Deity

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    An argument was made that Imp isn't just about going to war, it's about building an empire. That is why I think more of the +2xp idea as it allows for both peaceful expansion and conquest. The GG increase only works when going to war, which I have no problem with, but the bonuses that you get from the GG's hardly help it compete with traits like Charismatic. Heck! Charismatic benefits from GG's more than Imp does anyway! +2xp per unit just gives an overall stronger military from which to build - or conquer - your empire.

    Maybe a +2xp and a +100% GG bonus?

    Or maybe, just maybe, actually having a true +100% GG bonus instead of the current (approx.) 30% GG bonus. If the GG's were liberal with the Imp trait, all would be well as Imp would have it's own niche in the game. Hmmm.
     
  14. kniteowl

    kniteowl Pirate Captain :P

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    Well giving 2XP to all units seems a tad overpowered, combined with 100% GG, when you consider the fact it's more powerful then aggressive because you get to chose the actual Free Promotion itself, it's not like Agg where the Free Promotion is Pre-determined and imagine how overpowered the Warmonger combinations would be like

    2XP to Imp, Julius Ceasar with Free 2XP Prats, that's even more overpowerd then Aggressive Prats

    How About Agg/Imp Khan with Free 2XP, that's an automatic 2 Promotions to all Melee and Gunpowder units without the need of any buildings or Civics

    and Cyrus.... Well you get the point I guess...

    If it were Free 2XP to a units it'd have to be specific units, maybe mounted and Siege, but then you have to worry about not overpowering the UUs of Russians/Mongols/Persians...

    I can't think of a Way that would make 2XP be balanced, I think it's a safer bet just to give them a specific free promotion, for balance purposes like free Flanking I to Mounted and Siege Mod I Posted.

    Btw I found a way to get a <iWarWearinessModifier> but requires us to use this CvGameCoreDLL.dll from this mod.

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=207938

    I've already Modded in the WW b onus but I'm having problems getting the Cheap Jails, it won't read the BuildingsInfo correctly, for some reason whenever I attempt it it removes ALL UBs from the game :S...
     
  15. Watiggi

    Watiggi Deity

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    A free promotion is actually stronger than +2xp. You may be able to choose a promotion with +2xp, but it costs 3xp next promotion and progresses from there - 5 promotions in 26xp. A free promotion still allows you another promotion in 2xp and progresses from there - 5 promotions at 17xp.

    Praetorians with +2xp aren't as effective as a Praetorian with a free Combat I in the long run.

    You do make some good points about +2xp being strong and comparable to Aggressive, but there seems to be only a few things that can be done.

    I am *trying* to alter the GG rate and threshold scales so that it is a true 100&#37; (by screwing around with the SDK). I have altered the algorithm, but there is a few issues that alter the result rather strangely. Does anyone else have access to the SDK and figure out how to change it. changeGreatGeneralsThresholdModifier() (or something along those lines) has formulaes that I have changed but some other code is screwing it up. Any insight would be cool. I'll keep looking though.
     
  16. kniteowl

    kniteowl Pirate Captain :P

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    Finally fixed all the problems... I think... anywayz, if there's something wrong with the Mod just Message me.

    I've modded the Imp Trait to have -25&#37; WW and Cheap Jails, Enjoy

    btw the file was too big, it was over 1MB so the forum doesn't allow me to upload it here so I uploaded it at send space, here's the link.

    http://www.sendspace.com/file/8ixwm7
     
  17. Watiggi

    Watiggi Deity

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    Why not just put it on the CFC download database?
     
  18. kniteowl

    kniteowl Pirate Captain :P

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    Sorry I'm a noob in the modding department of CFC... so how do I upload it there???
     
  19. Watiggi

    Watiggi Deity

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    Umm.

    1) Click on 'Downloads' at the top of this page (to take you to the downloads section). This is inbetween 'My Account' and 'Galleries' at the top.

    2) Then click on 'add file' in the 'Navigation' section (just above where it says "Welcome to the new CivFanatics Downloads Database, kniteowl!").

    3) Then fill in the information like name, description and upload the file. Remember to choose the category too (just below the decription box).

    I'm just about to do it now myself.
     
  20. kniteowl

    kniteowl Pirate Captain :P

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