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Suggestion to improve 'Imperialistic' trait

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by spiffamoo, Nov 15, 2006.

  1. Watiggi

    Watiggi Deity

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    I've made a mod that gives a true 100% GG emergence for the Imperialistic trait. I ended up cheating in the end and just prevented it from changing the threshold value. This way every leader can get a GG every 60xp (the Imp leader being able to get there twice as fast, hence +100% GG emergence). This 60 threshold can be changed in the mod's GlobalDefines. Instructions on how to do this are in the readme.

    Real 100% GG Bonus for Imperialistic
     
  2. Watiggi

    Watiggi Deity

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    That's cool :)

    ..........

    I have also just made a 'No Revolt Imperialistic' mod. It has:

    +100% GG Emergence (as is in Warlords)
    +50% faster settler production (as is in Warlords)
    no revolt period for captured cities.

    I believe someone wanted something like this, so here it is:

    No Revolt Imperialistic
     
  3. scy12

    scy12 Deity

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    Can you please upload a mod that is

    +100% GG emergence (real 100%)
    -25 WW
     
  4. kristopherb

    kristopherb Protective/Charismatic

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    i like this idea but i think it whould be cool having 3 nat wonders per city
     
  5. kniteowl

    kniteowl Pirate Captain :P

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    No revolt? As in if I captured a Enemy City, they won't resist me?... well That Makes a Great Artist even more useless for the Imperialistic Leader, the the usage for war sense. It could possibly be overpowered for the Warmonger combinations... I acn't think of any currently but I probably would of rpefered, Revolt Times cut in half but ah well it's for the purpose of testing so who knows it might give Imperialistic that edge on the other warmonger traits it so desperate needs.
     
  6. Watiggi

    Watiggi Deity

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    I don't agree with the no revolt period either, but I remember someone, somewhere in this thread (or maybe another thread, not sure) that liked the idea. I just found that the solution was a simple 'if' statement added in, so I made it :)

    Finding a combination that both captures Imperialistic and allows for competitive gameplay with the other traits isn't proving to be that easy. It's fun though. :)

    That's outside my capability. I have no idea of how to integrate the WW bonus... but I guess your post wasn't aimed at me.
    EDIT: I just realised you wanted the real 100% GG bonus. I can do that part.
     
  7. kniteowl

    kniteowl Pirate Captain :P

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    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=207938

    You can download the SDK with the War Weariness Code Integrated from here and just add in the real 100% GG in the SDK, plus add tags in the Traits Info XML <iWarWearinessModifier> to all traits and it should be fine.
     
  8. Yakk

    Yakk Cheftan

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    Here is a crazy one:
    Half-cultural cost to get borders to pop.
    Or (even better) double-radius borders.
     
  9. kniteowl

    kniteowl Pirate Captain :P

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    wouldn't that more likely represent the creative trait then the Imperialist trait?
     
  10. Yakk

    Yakk Cheftan

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    You don't have more culture. Your culture isn't any stronger: It is just wider. :)
     
  11. Robotron 2084

    Robotron 2084 Chieftain

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    You are all wrong: immunity to culture flips is the way to go! :goodjob:
     
  12. Watiggi

    Watiggi Deity

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    Maybe the ability to get GG's from hunting animals and killing Barbarians. It would be appropriate for Julius (well, the Romans anyway), Genghis, Victoria, probably the Persians (I would imagine they would have had to defend themselves from Barbarians).
     
  13. kniteowl

    kniteowl Pirate Captain :P

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    Hey I just had another Idea while posting on another thread to improve the Imperialistic trait and better representing it at the same time.

     
  14. Watiggi

    Watiggi Deity

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    Hmm. The funny thing about that idea is that it would encourage people to not be imperialistic :)

    The vassal commerce bonus is a good idea though, as it is taken from a conquered (or more appropriately "apart of our empire") empire, but the foreign commerce would just encourage the player to not conquer and/or expand in order to get the extra commerce.

    In my opinion, for it to represent Imperialism, if anything, the bonuses should encourage the player to want to gain control over other empires. So the bonuses could be to a) get the player into a position where it could capitalise on it and b) gain continious rewards to encourage the player to do it. If you think about it, the settler bonus helps a) and the GG bonus helps b). I think the GG bonus should be a -25&#37; GG xp needed (just like Cha is for unit xp) as the GG scale climbs too steeply and thus runs the b) aspect dry too quickly. The GG bonus is also only a war based solution.

    With still using your idea, I would prehaps keep the vassal trade routes and add a +100% bonus to domestic trade routes. This would encourage capitulation/vassalising or otherwise assimilation of other nations. This doesn't however help the person into a better position to be imperialistic. I would also suspect that the new BtS spy system might include more ways of gaining control of foreign territories in different ways that may better suit Imperialistic. Corporations too would better allow for modern Imperialism (but not older versions).

    Imperialistic as a whole though, it's more than just exploiting a foreign economy. The marxist perspective tends to want to place a rather big emphasis on the economy aspect. Imperialism tends to 'want to have it all if they want to' when it comes to everything that is not theirs. That's a rather lame perspective, but prehaps useful nonetheless. They essentially want control and have the ability to maintain that control.

    Nice idea though :) Puts a few ideas in my head...
     
  15. Watiggi

    Watiggi Deity

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    So to clarify, I think Imperialism should:

    a) have an ability that helps them into a position to gain more control over other nations

    b) receive rewards to encourage the player to keep doing it.

    I think that'll be a good model for building an Imperialistic trait from.

    maybe:

    +1 gold per turn in the capital city (taxes) for every city captured/razed.
    +100&#37; commerce from Vassal trade routes.
    GG bonus of some sort (either +100% or -25% GG cost).
     
  16. kniteowl

    kniteowl Pirate Captain :P

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    I was thinking when you have a vassal, you also take on extra maintenance from the vassal and therefore it kind of cancels out the bonus from vassal trade routes.

    So I was thinking with Imp, when you have a Vassal you don't carry the extra maintenance, so another bonus would be Zero Maintenance from Vassal or (If that's overpowered) A decrease in maintenance from vassals by -50&#37;.

    I'm a little confused about this bonus

    How does that represent Imp???

    I think the -25% GG cost is weaker then the 100% Xp to GGs.

    100% = 15XP (to 1st GG) 30XP, 45XP, 60XP Etc
    -25% = 22XP, 45XP... etc

    maybe 1/3 Cheaper GG cost would be better having easier number to caculate

    =1/3 (33%) = 20XP, 40XP, 60XP...

    So yeah the Cheap GGs would be weaker unless you combined both Cheap GG and 100XP or the Cheaper GG were cheap by more then 50%.
     
  17. Watiggi

    Watiggi Deity

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    Taxes/tribute from rival cities (once captured/razed).

    It's both a motivator in a gameplay sense and motivator in the real imperialistic sense: being able to take from others. It's what generally drives imperialism anyway; the imperialistic leader has some sense of perceiving themselves as being better than their neighbours and when they acquire or gain control - they take.

    If shines get 1 gold per turn from each city that has their religion, then it makes sense for an Imperialistic leader to get 1 gold per turn from every captured city in the form of taxes/tribute.

    The whole idea is rather symbolic of reality and is also there to help with gameplay motivation - much like shrines.

    EDIT: I guess tribute would be a better word than taxes. Basically it receives tribute from conquered territory.
     
  18. frob2900

    frob2900 Deity

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    I dont see how trade revenues directly couple to imperialistic, seems more of a financial trait..

    How about less war weariness and, say and extra 1 or 2 gold per city (just like creative gives culture)

    The extra gold per city would represent the more efficient taxation and exploitation thats going on and the lowered war weariness would represent the imperialistic mindset..

    This would lead to
    a) Make player inclined to wage big campaigns and not quit so quickly
    b) Keep all conquests and thus have a large empire
    c) Utilize the +100% settler emergence even more, getting a larger empire in the beginning.

    BTW. One strategy I like with imperialistic leaders is to found my first city on a plains hill (preferably with marble/stone for an extra hammer) and build settler/settler as my first units in the capital. This is a great strategy with Catherine and really makes that +100 settler emergence shine..
     
  19. Watiggi

    Watiggi Deity

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    Agreed! I love this strategy too. It also benefits a military build up with this strategy. I tend to put quite a few Imp cities on plain hills - especially my first few - and then use them to quickly build up a military.

    Hmm. Doesn't Copper and Iron give +2 hammers when settled on? Maybe on plains or something, I can't remember. If it does, then it would go for a rapid military buildup too.
     
  20. DrewBledsoe

    DrewBledsoe Veteran QB

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    What I'm actually thinking atm, is that Imp needs a cheap building or 2, to balance it out. If you play huge maps and marathon for example, the settler bonus is often utterly pointless, in that there is no rush at all to build those first few cities, and in fact by rushing them out you are doing more harm than good (there's no rush for land, and they're only costing you money / science)...

    Most Imp leaders in the game, are ones who irl ruled over empires mostly taken by force, but sustained by commerce and trade. Maybe half price markets is a thought. Some (not all) also kept law and order through military presence, so maybe +1 happiness from barracks, is another...

    Not particularly inspired I agree, but they would make Imp a more rounded trait.

    I'm sure the trait though, will get a bump in BTS, we'll have to wait and see...........
     

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