Suggestion to improve 'Imperialistic' trait

[kniteowl]

Lord Olleus: I may be getting access to a maintanence modifier tag (from Aussie Lurker) soon which will allow a reduction in maintanence for a trait. Then a +25% maintanence reduction can be made and tried.

Are you decreasing Maintanance in general or are you decreasing specific parts of maintainance? eg - City Number or Distance from Capital?

Would Reduced Maintainance overpower Julius Ceasar? being Org/Imp he'd could continue conquering untill he runs out of units and could delay codes of law.

I've been thinking about the cheap Jails, I'm not sure how useful they'll be because they come quite late in the game, Constitution is quite a long way, most traits have generally at least one early Cheap building available in the the early game except Phil and Fin (Vanilla Pre Patch) but those traits are already quite powerful. I say just give the Imp Civ -25% war-weariness unless you find another way to make it alot stronger.

Or how about giving it 3 cheap buildings like they did with the other traits Cre and Org in the new patch.

Change the Imp Trait and check out how it goes with

100% GG Emergance
+50% Production of Settlers
& Double production on Jails, Grocers and Markets

LOL Funny that Cyrus and Julius get Cheap UBs lol well +2 health and +25% great people birth rate ain't that powerful

 

[Nay]

I liked that Imperialistic was something different from all the other "produce building X at half cost" for once.

Keeping it that way would be nice.
I still suggest "no additional upkeep for troops outside your borders" since this reflects the Imperialistic way to expand.
Rather than "boo, our boys are dying overseas!" it should be "yeah, our boys are conquering overseas!"

Of course it shouldnt give a bonus for this, it could be easily exloited.
But lowering the mali that conquering armies produce poses a neat way to have something that

a) is something different
b) not game-breaking
c) stays in touch with the real events

In addition, how about +100% GG points when fighting outside your borders?

Imperialistic is about Expansion, and mostly not the peaceful way, so it should focus on events that do not take place at home.

Cheaper buildings is the wrong direction here.
+1 Trade route maybe?
The colonies werent taken for their nice view, but for resources, which translates as money.
+1% Commerce for each captured city (read: city yiou posses but did not found yourself) in each home city (read: cities you DID found yourself), thus representing the newly aquired markets.

just a few thoughts though, im still hoping for an industrious/philosophical leader

 

[Antilogic]

I personally would like to try:

*Military Academy available with Literature (toned back down to +25% military production) and
*Instructor becomes available at Education.
(so, in the begining only warlords can be made until Literature).

Sadly this wont be too crash hot until a true +100% GG emergence can be made with Imp.

I like the new system with +50% military unit production. Before, I would never build Military Academies because a quarter wasn't worth the new unit XP tradeoff. But a 50% boost is worth the tradeoff sometimes, so I'm more likely to use them. That's for a different thread, though.



A side-note/corollary to what I said above: if switching the settler and worker bonuses weaken Expansive, just bump the health bonus back up to 3. That'll help.

Also, on boosting the food as well...the only limit to your expansion would be your budget. You could pump out the settlers really quick, but it would ruin you in the long run. However, with this boosted trait, you can still produce settlers and then settle at the most optimal pace you can...

Also, I don't claim the Flanking I promotion idea...my idea was a March promotion. But, that was before the patch, and I did some other stuff...now, I'm restarting, and I think switching the settler/worker bonus would be a good place to start.

 

[Watiggi]

Cheaper buildings is the wrong direction here.
+1 Trade route maybe?
The colonies werent taken for their nice view, but for resources, which translates as money.
+1% Commerce for each captured city (read: city yiou posses but did not found yourself) in each home city (read: cities you DID found yourself), thus representing the newly aquired markets.

I like this idea. Instead of +1% commerce for each captured city though, maybe a +1-2 gold in the capital city for each conquered city. This would reward/encourage the player to expand much like missionaries with their shrines would.

Maybe a research gain with each conquest, like +100 research points for each city conquered or +1 research per turn for each city conquered.

The problem with this idea and the +1% commerce (and the +1 Trade route) is that it cannot be done in XML

just a few thoughts though, im still hoping for an industrious/philosophical leader

You can try a Phi/Ind leader in this XML modcomp if you want. I put in all the trait combos that haven't been used yet, like Agg/Cha, Exp/Imp, Spi/Imp, etc in there for people to try out. Balance has been put aside though (in favour of making the trait combos available).

Are you decreasing Maintanance in general or are you decreasing specific parts of maintainance? eg - City Number or Distance from Capital?

No idea. I am not making it, Aussie is. I would assume it would be a blanket -x% reduction though.

Would Reduced Maintainance overpower Julius Ceasar? being Org/Imp he'd could continue conquering untill he runs out of units and could delay codes of law.

Yeah your right, it probably would make it a little unbalanced.

I've been thinking about the cheap Jails, I'm not sure how useful they'll be because they come quite late in the game, Constitution is quite a long way, most traits have generally at least one early Cheap building available in the the early game except Phil and Fin (Vanilla Pre Patch) but those traits are already quite powerful. I say just give the Imp Civ -25% war-weariness unless you find another way to make it alot stronger.

Yeah, I would prefer a flat -25% WW ability, but it cannot be done in XML. I just wish someone would spend a whole heap of time building a wholllle lot of new tags that allow us to be more creative....

I like the new system with +50% military unit production. Before, I would never build Military Academies because a quarter wasn't worth the new unit XP tradeoff. But a 50% boost is worth the tradeoff sometimes, so I'm more likely to use them. That's for a different thread, though.

In this situation though, Military Academy wouldn't come in until Literature whereas the Instructor wouldn't wouldn't come in until Education (a lot later). In the begining, only warlords can be used - beneficial for the Imp leader. Then comes the Military Academy - of more benefit to the Imp leader / conqueror. Then, at Education and quite a bit later, comes the Instructor (+2xp) - of more of a benefit for Charismatic leaders because they get a promotion reduction. Delaying the instructor also gives Aggressive an advantage for longer before it can be compensated for by its opponents using instructors.

A side-note/corollary to what I said above: if switching the settler and worker bonuses weaken Expansive, just bump the health bonus back up to 3. That'll help.

Also, on boosting the food as well...the only limit to your expansion would be your budget. You could pump out the settlers really quick, but it would ruin you in the long run. However, with this boosted trait, you can still produce settlers and then settle at the most optimal pace you can...

Also, I don't claim the Flanking I promotion idea...my idea was a March promotion. But, that was before the patch, and I did some other stuff...now, I'm restarting, and I think switching the settler/worker bonus would be a good place to start.

I have a custom trait thingy mod comp that was made a little while ago. It has:

Aggressive:
free Combat I for melee, gunpowder units
+100% faster Barracks production
+100% faster Stables production
+100% faster Drydock production

Expansive:
+2 health
+50% faster settler production
+100% faster Granary production
+100% faster Harbour production

Industrious:
+50% faster worker production
+50% faster wonder production
+100% faster Forge production

Imperialistic:
+100% Great General emergence
+25% faster production for melee, gunpowder units

Mongol Ger costs 70 hammers.

If you want, I could probably toy around with this one and come up with something you're after. Just give me some specifics. There's a few balancing issues with this modcomp as it is though . Link for this mod is here.

 

[skywalker]

I think Mr. Civtastic summed up my thoughts pretty well. I am a warmonger myself, usually trying for a conquest or domination victory, with some buildup period somewhere in between, but at most I see, what, 2-3 more GGs?

There's a time value of GP's. With Imp, you get them much, much earlier.

 

[skywalker]

How about -25% city upkeep?

IMP/ORG would crush everything.

 

[kniteowl]

Instead or Free March to Melee/gunpowder or Mounted/Naval, or Free Flankking 1 to Mounted/Naval units

How about giving Free Barrage 1 (+20 Collateral Damage) to Siege and Naval Units.

It Doesn't appear overpowered and extra collateral damage Would help alot in warfare, Would Free Barrage 1 Promotion better represent an Imp civ?

I can see no SOD at sea would ever be safe again Before Battleships... MUAHAHAHAH LOL

I just realized that Free Flanking 1 to Naval Units might be a tad over powered, because your over 2 promotions away from Navigation I & II.

 

[Watiggi]

How about giving Free Barrage 1 (+20 Collateral Damage) to Siege and Naval Units.

It Doesn't appear overpowered and extra collateral damage Would help alot in warfare, Would Free Barrage 1 Promotion better represent an Imp civ?

I don't know whether it represents Imp that much, but here it is for you to try if you want:

 

[kniteowl]

LOL I've been playing with your mods on Imp recently and just realized half way through a game that the your modified Imp Trait doesn't give them 50% production bonus on settlers lol You should of said so.... :S

 

[Watiggi]

LOL I've been playing with your mods on Imp recently and just realized half way through a game that the your modified Imp Trait doesn't give them 50% production bonus on settlers lol You should of said so.... :S

hehe, oops! Which mod? I have changed them all so that they loose the settler bonus and have it replaced with the promotion choice (ie, Barrage, Flanking, March, etc).

Were you expecting it to be a promotion addition with the settler bonus? I would've thought that would be a bit too powerful. Sorry for not saying anything, I just thought it was implied.

Hows it playing? Balanced? Interesting?

 

[Mr. Civtastic]

IMP/ORG would crush everything.

I dont know about that. It really depends on timing. I would take an aggresive/org against that combo early on, and I would DEFINATELY take a char/org at almost any other time of the game. And if I was smart, I would look at your cities to see which ones had acadamies and try my darndest to raze them. And thats the kicker...imp needs a lot of time to become powerful while the other war traits do not, and imp depends on production from a couple cities while the other traits do not.

Youll need lots and lots of fighting to really get a powerful advantage with imp and by that time, you've probably wrapped up the game. You might as well be fighting with a non-warring trait that gives you other advantages.

 

[kniteowl]

Bump J/K lol

After Playing other main Mods released to Balance Imp, I realize that March is too overpowered, it's a Combat 3 Promotion for a reason so I think it'd be better to give free Level 2 Promotions (eg-Combat 1, Drill 1, Barrage 1 & CR 1 is excluded of course imagine how Overpowered that be lol).

Free Flanking to Naval Units is also Overpowered as your only 2 promotions away from Navigation I & II and on Water Maps you'd run circles around your enemy.

Free Barrage I to Naval and Siege, just took too long for me to benefit compared to other Military Traits, which you benefit much early, Charismatic benefits all units, Aggressive benefits your Warrior Units and after Metal Units, and Protective benefits Archery Units and the Archery Tech is not very far from being research, that and Construction and a very long long way.

Anyways, if anyone is interested, I Decided To Release my version of an Improved Imp Trait, What I've done is Give Free Flanking I to all Mounted and Siege Units (Maybe I should include Helicopters?...Nah).

I'm not sure whether that'd balance out the Imp trait, but it'd need some testing so if anyone is bored or has free time to test it and out and come back and post their results and opinions of the change, their quite welcome too.

I've also Change the Flanking Promotions line just in case the Free Flanking I promotion might be considered overpowered.

Some of you might be thinking, HEY, won't Cyrus and Catherine And Khan's UU be Overpowered, Well... is Flanking I Really that overpowered? I guess that's the purpose of releasing this for testing huh? lol

Here are the changes

Flanking II = 10% Withdrawal Rate, & Immune to First Strikes
Flanking III = 20% Withdrawal Rate

I'd also like to add Flanking IV which would to have the ability to Withdraw from Combat on the Defensive, It'd be a Level 5 Promotion so I'd consider it quite balance, a level 4 promotion for Imp Civs of course, they need some kind of advantage but sadly I suck at coding and I'm too lazy to Change the SDK Codes :S.

I'd also made an attempt to give the Imp trait a War weariness Bonus by Modifying the Civilization Shema and Traitsinfo XML Files, but it didn't work lol I realized it needed to also be changed in the SDK File...again too much work for me, if someone here has time and like to do so, PLEASE go ahead and post the files here, Do a -25% AND -50% WW Bonus to Imp.

Anyways I'll Post to 2 Saves.

The first one is the Free Flanking Promotions but removed the Settler Bonus
The second one is the same as the first one but included the Settler Bonus.

Both Files have the change of Flanking Promotions, if you want the change in Promotions removed just go into (Assets=>XML=>Units=>CIV4PromotionInfos.xml) and delete the CIV4PromotionInfos.xml File.

Enjoy.

 

[scy12]

I suggest a 150 % faster Great general emergence (which is actually around 50% more so instead of 6 you will have 9 , instead of 2 -3 and so on). and cheaper jails. Even without any changes even if the imperialistic trait seems weak imperialist leaders aren't bad or weak.

 

[willpax]

I still suggest "no additional upkeep for troops outside your borders" since this reflects the Imperialistic way to expand.
Rather than "boo, our boys are dying overseas!" it should be "yeah, our boys are conquering overseas!"

I had been thinking along these lines. In terms of timing, it really helps out with early "expansions of influence" at a time when the economy doesn't have a lot of room for error. So imperial civs would be able to send a larger army out into the field for that first war without it devastating their economy so much. Add in the great general bonus, and you have a trait that helps out without being too over the top.

 

[scy12]

I had been thinking along these lines. In terms of timing, it really helps out with early "expansions of influence" at a time when the economy doesn't have a lot of room for error. So imperial civs would be able to send a larger army out into the field for that first war without it devastating their economy so much. Add in the great general bonus, and you have a trait that helps out without being too over the top.

It does makes sense but don't you think it may be just too much ? Imagine Cyrus, Genghis to now be able to keep the science meeter high enough so they can afford even more wars . It does makes sense but i am unsure if it is broken or not.

 

[Yakk]

How about:

Imperialistic: 75% cheaper vassal state maintenence.

This encourages you to build an empire, instead of just conquoring people.

 

[kniteowl]

I suggest a 150 % faster Great general emergence (which is actually around 50% more so instead of 6 you will have 9 , instead of 2 -3 and so on). and cheaper jails. Even without any changes even if the imperialistic trait seems weak imperialist leaders aren't bad or weak.

If your interested in trying that modification, there's a 200% GG Emergence Mod on the first page of this thread and 150% extra GG does not necessarily mean 150% more GGs, as you require more XP gained for every new GG, 30XP, 60XP, 90XP etc...every new GG cost 30XP more then the last one, it's similar to Philosophical, the 100% doesn't necessarily mean you get a 100% more GPs... I know it's a bit deceiving but that's how it is.

 

[DigitalBoy]

Frankly, I think both of Imperialistic's benefits are abysmal.

+25% production for settlers is a nice perk, but commerce is more important to expansion than just straight production. Maintenance slows down my expansion much more than just the cost in hammers. And then, the bonus is small and only applies to hammers (not surplus food), making the bonus even smaller. Whoopee.

+100% great general emergence... I have to be at war to get great generals, and I might as well just be aggressive if I expect on being in many wars. And aggressive is going to be useful from step one; imperialistic is going to require me to go to war like a non-aggressive civ until I get a general halfway through. I don't even think great generals are all that game changing. The two most useful things they can do are establish military academies and create a single high level unit for eligibility for West Point. And let's not forget you need more points for each subsequent general. Just like philosophical =/= double great people, imperialistic is going to see diminishing returns on the general points their trait is based on.

-----

I've thought before on what imperialistic "should have been," but I keep coming across the same two problems. The first problem is that any bonus I want to give imperialstic ends up seeming like it should belong to expansive or organized instead. I've thought about lower city maintenance (-33%), but organized already has half off courthouses. I've thought about faster/cheaper workers (an empire needs roads to connect it and workers to restore ravaged countrysides), but expansive already has something like that. The second problem is that any unique bonuses imperialistic could have are just...well, lame. I've thought about -50% war weariness, but even then, imperialistic would just be a wanna-be aggressive. And late enough in the game, you can get -100% war weariness no matter what civ you play. I've thought about no "distance to palace" maintenance, but that would make a national wonder, a world wonder, and an economy civic worthless to an imperialistic leader.

So, do I think imperialistic is weak? Yes. Do I have suggestions on how to improve it? How I wish I did.

 

[scy12]

kniteowl

Originally Posted by scy12 View Post
I suggest a 150 % faster Great general emergence (which is actually around 50% more so instead of 6 you will have 9 , instead of 2 -3 and so on). and cheaper jails. Even without any changes even if the imperialistic trait seems weak imperialist leaders aren't bad or weak.

If your interested in trying that modification, there's a 200% GG Emergence Mod on the first page of this thread and 150% extra GG does not necessarily mean 150% more GGs, as you require more XP gained for every new GG, 30XP, 60XP, 90XP etc...every new GG cost 30XP more then the last one, it's similar to Philosophical, the 100% doesn't necessarily mean you get a 100% more GPs... I know it's a bit deceiving but that's how it is.

Indeed that is how it works . If you read again my post you will see that i mentioned that 150% faster great general emergence bonus (instead of 100% that imperialistic now has ) will have about 50% more GG emergence in the end . (For example 9 instead of the 6 all non imperialistic Leaders have) My calculations may be a little off but i don't think it's by a lot.

 

[kniteowl]

Indeed that is how it works . If you read again my post you will see that i mentioned that 150% faster great general emergence bonus (instead of 100% that imperialistic now has ) will have about 50% more GG emergence in the end . (For example 9 instead of the 6 all non imperialistic Leaders have) My calculations may be a little off but i don't think it's by a lot.

Here's a 150% GG emergence + Cheap Jails Mod, if your interested.

You meant compared to non Imp Civs? I thought you meant 100% Imps compared to 150% Imp Civs.

Personally after the Improvement you gave to Imp trait, I still consider it underpowered because an extra 50% GG Emergence is almost insignificant and doesn't fix the problem of Imp being weaker then the other Military Traits, because it requires time for the Imp trait to become powerful compared to other military Traits eg- Agg & Cha which are useful right from the beginning.

Chances are the Cheap Jails may not help either as they come too late in the game to be much of a impact, the only other traits with late cheap buildings are Philosophical and Vanilla Pre-Patch Financial, but those traits are already powerful, even without cheap buildings, Imp without cheap jails... well you already know how weak it is compared to the others. Well that's my opinion.