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[suggestion]why not a fixed start?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by ddd123, Oct 29, 2010.

  1. ddd123

    ddd123 Prince

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    not to criticize the HOF but i just had a look at winner of first contest and he had a start i couldnt reproduce in 20 starting game not even by 2 res

    so whats the real point of hof (apart from the fun) ?

    if you want to "fight" to win you just have to start over and over until you have a uber location which is too much boring

    then my suggestion here: why not provide the rules AND a starting save so everyone start in the same map with the same conditions?
    that way the winner is really the winner and not the one with most patience that can try 442312312 games

    my 0.02
     
  2. pagh80

    pagh80 Warlord

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    Because the HoF is not the same as GotM.
    HoF stands for Hall of Fame and if that is not self explanatory enough here is more information.
    Look here for Civ 4 HoF table. I believe the one for Civ 5 will look similar.

    Sofar the games are just testgames.
     
  3. ddd123

    ddd123 Prince

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    i didnt ask for informations

    i asked "why not a fixed a start? "
     
  4. pagh80

    pagh80 Warlord

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    And i just gave you the answer.
     
  5. Miraculix

    Miraculix Warlord

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    Because a fixed start would be the same as GOTM which is a different competition.
     
  6. ddd123

    ddd123 Prince

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    ok but still it seems to me only a thing like gotm makes sense

    what is the sense then of HOF if ppl win just by outstarting others?
     
  7. Drool

    Drool Chieftain

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    Well go and play these instead then.
     
  8. Denniz

    Denniz Where's my breakfast? Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Let's be civil folks. :scan:

    _______________________

    The Hall of Fame and Game of the Month both have their niche. Some prefer one, some the other, and some like both.

    There is no way to totally eliminate luck from the competitions. The value of the GOTM fixed start is comparing how each player develops the starting position. Eventally, luck takes effect and it becomes a comparison of general stagety.

    HOF is more about general strategy. Being able to generate new starts to try different strategies to maximize performance. With GOTM, one screw up and your GOTM is over until next month. With HOF you can try again with new maps until you get it right or give up. :mischief:

    Sure, some starting positions are better than the others but it still takes skill to capitalize on it. I think if you look at the starting positions of all the entries you will see many excellent starting positions. Not everyone is able to take full advantage of it. I imagine that there were a lot more great starts that got abandoned for various reasons.

    Finally, both Civ3 and Civ4 had mods to generate, select and save starts in am un-attended mode. That went a long way towards leveling the playng field. Hopefully, we can get something similar for Civ5.
     
  9. sanabas

    sanabas Psycho Bunny Hall of Fame Staff

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    The civ 3 & 4 HOF had plenty of #1 slots filled by games with average starts, too. The amount of rerolling for good starts is probably amplified for gauntlets compared to regular HOF play. Since the test games are gauntlets, and since they're the introduction to the HOF for lots of new players who have found the HOF with civ V, it's probably giving them a bit of a false picture.
     
  10. ddd123

    ddd123 Prince

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    well ofc i will go and play what i find more meaningful

    the point of this thread was understanding that, what makes more sense and if there is something im missing
     
  11. ddd123

    ddd123 Prince

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    ok after all those nonsense replies finally something useful

    this seems a good idea
     
  12. ddd123

    ddd123 Prince

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    whats the difference between the 2?
     
  13. Neuro

    Neuro Warlord

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    The Gauntlets are timed competitions using set guidelines in game construction. The normal HOF games are much looser in terms of what options you choose (Civ, landmass, win condition, etc) with the objective of just getting as high a score as possible.

    The HoF competition hasn't opened for Civ5 yet, as there's no anti-cheat mod yet.
     
  14. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    A "Fixed Start" is by definition exactly what the Game of the Month (GOTM) is. There would be no point in the Hall of Fame (HoF) using a fixed start, because it could be played only once for the one fixed start in that HoF slot. A fixed start per Gauntlet is probably what you are suggesting, but the HoF wouldn't bother doing that, since GOTM has years of experience in that type of competition.

    Before labeling previous responses to your query as "nonsense", it may be instructive to read:

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=380081

    Here is the main HoF page for Civilization IV (the one for Civilization V has not been set up yet):

    http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/index.php

    The Game of the Month is a once a Month event (you may play just one Game once per month). The Hall of Fame is a competitive framework that shows the "best" game in its category for all time (at least as long as the sponsors and volunteers keep it running, which they have for years. Thanks Guys!). You can Play as many new Games in any Category (HoF slot) as you have the time and stamina to muster.

    I've read all the responses to your query and they made sense to me, but I've been Playing HoF Games for years, so perhaps I read things into the responses that weren't there.

    So, 'Can a "Fixed Start" fit into the Hall of Fame?' Probably not.

    Welcome to the HoF!

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  15. ddd123

    ddd123 Prince

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    why only once btw?
    why a competition cant work with the same fixed start but played multiple times?

    the point is logic not knowledge

    i *DIDNT* know there was gotm and other stuff, i am new to these things
    i admit my ignorance on these matters
    but still i dont see how the existance of a good thing make a wrong thing senseful

    i explain once again:

    i see a stupid car called X with 3 wheels and no ceiling
    i say "why not make X with 4 wheel and something so it doesnt rain inside? "

    and all ppl reply "well there are already thousands of normal cars with those traits"

    man it doesnt make sense, cars have 4 wheels FOR A REASON, cause IT IS BETTER

    its not like you have to be different at all cost if the "normality" is founded on logic ideas


    anyway im not here to flame about it, i was just curious about this contest and i had a few interesting answers and clarifications, also i got to understand there are possible fixes to what i find huge flaws in the actual system

    so its all set ;)
     
  16. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    A start can be played only once, because after the first play of a start, you will have "forbidden" knowledge of where happiness resources are located, where each AI started and especially the location and type (Military, Maritime, Cultural) of every City State. For a non-Pangaea Water Map you will also know the exact location of any Continents and any Islands. After the first play of a fixed start, the unrevealed Tile will have no meaning, because you already know what terrain and resources are there. You could use such "forbidden" knowledge to unfairly improve the results of subsequent plays (restarts) of the same start.

    I'm not aware of any formal Civilization competition that allows playing the same fixed start multiple times. Not knowing what is located in unrevealed hexes (covered by clouds in Civilization V) is essential to the exploration part of the Game.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  17. Methos

    Methos HoF Quattromaster Super Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    The problem with your analogy is what you refer to as "better" is based on preference, not any definable evidence. While I have no desire to push anyone away (I'd rather you take part in HOF competition), its each persons preference or desire as to which competition they wish to participate in.

    I ask you to look at the Civ 3 and Civ 4 HOF before making any definite decision. Realize that we haven't completed our Civ V HOF site yet, which is why currently the only Civ V HOF competitions are the Beta Gauntlets. If you look at the previous versions, you'll see that the HOF is more then just the Gauntlets.

    I disagree. I'm fairly positive I can give a sucky start to one of our top players and an awesome start to one of less then top players and I'd bet :gold: the top player will have the better date. It isn't just the start that makes the game, the player still has to achieve the result. The best starts are typically used when the top players are trying to beat each other out, or the not quite top players are trying to move themselves up the ranks.
     
  18. ddd123

    ddd123 Prince

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    well no :p
    i opened this thread just cause i couldnt see any objective reason to value them otherwise


    yes i understand that


    i totally agree
    its like in some sport with technology

    the top runner with a non optimal pair of shoes can still beat a non top athlete with the best shoes in the world

    its correct what you say

    the point you dont consider is the CHOICE

    if you put the top athlete in a competition and GIVE HIM THE CHOICE to pick whatever shoes he wants why would he run with a sub optimal pair?

    why not just pick the best shoes?
     
  19. sanabas

    sanabas Psycho Bunny Hall of Fame Staff

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    So how would you implement it? what would happen with someone like me who tends to play lots of games when I'm bothering to play? I just play the same start, the same game 10 games over? Or do I expect the HOF staff to generate a heap of starts, and I just select from what's available?

    To use your analogy, the current HOF setup means I can run whenever I want, in whatever pair of shoes I want, over whatever distance I want, and have my time recorded. I don't have to wait for anyone else to setup a race, I don't have to wait for someone else to hand out the same pair of shoes to me & 97 other people, I can just run when I choose to, and it still counts. Even it's just a barefoot jog around the block. Yeah, for some of my games I'll make sure I have the best shoes, the best place to run, etc. But most of the time I can't be bothered getting hold of all that stuff, I'll just choose to run in whatever I happen to be wearing anyway. That's the choice the HOF offers. I don't see any reason to take that choice away, to compel me to use HOF-issue shoes.

    It's not practical at all to force identical starts for ordinary HOF play. Yes, it could be done just for the gauntlets. But unless an individual gauntlet is made with a very good start, gauntlet games aren't going to be competitive with the regular HOF games. Gauntlet games are going to be very different to regular HOF games. You can't discuss strategy, you can't refine strategy, because that means people playing when they already know lots of info that isn't normally available until you explore, like where the land is, where the AIs & CS are, where the resources are, where the ruins are, etc, etc. One of the good things about the HOF is the chance to share ideas, to talk about stuff, to see what others are doing and try and replicate or improve it. There are threds of mine in the Civ 3 HOF forum that were still getting used 3 & 4 years after I started them. What you're suggesting would remove the ability & incentive to do a lot of that.

    So, your suggestion won't work for general HOF play. It will dramatically change gauntlets, make them unlike every other HOF game. It will actually make gauntlets identical to a restrictive GOTM game (it'd be the same as GOTM, but without the choice of VCs). If I want to play games like that, then I'll just play GOTM.
     
  20. ddd123

    ddd123 Prince

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    well given the skills (and time) it could work to implement a REAL balanced map where all resources and randomness averages in some way BUT STILL forcing a normal gameplay with exploration and such

    ofc the first point is balancing capital, 1 or 2 more resources are too much an advantage, not talking about OP resources like marble etc

    ofc like most ppl said you would need to balance city states too trying to give a good distribution in their position, types and bonus given
     

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