Summoning Trait, too good or just too good?

[Mithrus]

Considering that summons by their nature are strong, but when you combine longer lasting summons AND the ability to summon THREE times per summoner, methinks the game breaks down very quickly.

IMO, either one or the other is great, but both together is just too strong. I'd recommend dropping the 3x summon rule altogether, or lowering the trait to 2 and 2.

I think there must not be enough people playing shiem + AV to see just how stupidly overpowered this combo is (and as the shiem, why would you shoot for any other religion short of boredom). In a quick game with daladinn, he was able to rush research AV by turn 75! This was without happy hut help, just using sages to pop tech.

In short, if ANYONE still thinks that AV is still the weakest religion, feel free to play daladinn once and see just how fast you can get creamed (if he doesn't just toy with you for a few hundred turns first).

Don't get me started on the tar demons...surely the lowly shiem needed the boost...

 

[xAlephx]

Daladinn wrote most of the wiki strategy files. I'm sure he could whup most people from one end of the game to the other with a wet noodle. Doesn't mean wet noodles are imba. Now, of course, the Sheaim are unbalanced... but not in the "we're stupidly, obscenely powerful across the board" sense (I think the Calabim hold that distinction if anyone does, and the Luchuirp aren't far behind in SP) but in the "we only do one thing, period, and that one thing we do really well." If they do their thing, and you can't counter it, you're in a huge heap of trouble.

If daladinn was fighting himself, using Elohim priest pops to race mutant monks vs. Sheaim sage pops to race veil, those summons are going to be a great source of experience for monks. The Sheaim, as the main Veil users, lost a lot when RoF was weakened, since that was their big gun for killing demon and disease resistant foes. An extremely tough demon defender isn't going come close to restoring them to their old power.

It's funny that in the Perpentach post some people are talking about Summoning as useless for the Balseraphs. I'm not saying either party is right or wrong - but it's probably a good sign that neither are entirely so.

 

[Bitwise]

lol, I had soooo many pit fiends my last game as the sheaim.

 

[kenken244]

you misunderstood teh trait. it allows your summons to last three turns. it does not allow you to summon three at once

 

[Mithrus]

you misunderstood teh trait. it allows your summons to last three turns. it does not allow you to summon three at once

I think you misunderstood what I meant Summoning trait not only allows your summons to last for three turns instead of one, but you can summon three times the number as well (over 3 turns). So, a single conjurer can have 3 summons active at the same time, just cast over three different turns. This means you can field an entire army of summons that will have an endless amount of reinforcements. Imagine taking on a city that *every* round has to fend off X creatures, or if you time it right, X*3 summons every 3 turns.

In one game, I had 10 conjurers on a desert hill summoning sand lions every turn for 3 turns, I then sent those *30* lions all at once to fight Madero, who had combat 5, hero strength 2 (it was pre-.22) plus a few other promos and was in a forest. I think I had about 6 lions left when Madero finally fell. Making 10 conjurers isn't that hard, especially when you have the arcane trait (or you are Amurites with a decent number of mana nodes). Being able to create an army of 30 units every 3 turns, what city or unit can withstand that kind of assault? Now, imagine having 20 conjurers...

This is the core reason I think the summoning trait needs to be scaled down a bit: there is in reality NO cost for summoning, and having the ability to field 3x the units just makes it that much worse. Keep it to last for 3 turns, but still use the same 1-1 ratio of conjurers to summons rule and I think it would be balanced.

 

[Grey Fox]

This is the core reason I think the summoning trait needs to be scaled down a bit: there is in reality NO cost for summoning, and having the ability to field 3x the units just makes it that much worse. Keep it to last for 3 turns, but still use the same 1-1 ratio of conjurers to summons rule and I think it would be balanced.

The summoning trait would be worse than not having the summoning trait if the Summoning Summoners cast a new one while it is current summon is still alive.

Why? Cause if it lives, the caster cant cast a new one, which means that next turn you might have a damaged summon, and you have to wait the 3 turns till you can refresh it. And even if you delete the summon and cast a new one, the trait has no advantage at all. And a trait should have some advantage in its field.

And I don't know if I was imagining it or what, but it seemed like my unit costs went up when I had the summons out.

 

[Bringa]

FWIW, my vote is for nerfing summoning down to TWO rounds instead of three as well. It's just too powerful. Especially when you go for priests: veil priests come with Summon Sand Lion (or at least there's not much teching involved at all to get it). Add one adept to the bunch for scorch, et voila: insta-built summoners.

 

[xAlephx]

Ritualists lack the ability to get the spell mobility line, making their summons quite a bit slower than conjurer summons. This limits their combat utility and greatly limits their Pillaging utility. Are they useless? Absolutely not. But they aren't anywhere near as useful as Conjurers.

Only the Sheaim and Keelyn have Summoner. Only the Sheaim have Arcane and Summoning. The Sheaim give up their entire upper end combat tech tree in exchange for hordes of freespawn, and Summoning is a crucial part of that. Keelyn, on the other hand, doesn't work well with Veil (since ideally you want to end up Neutral OO for her psi/chaos druids) and lacks Arcane or the Amurite Cave, so each individual conjurer is much more valuable to her.

Finally, there is simply no way that Summoner is anywhere near as potent as a trait as is Philosophical. Perhaps it is because so few people play as the Sheaim or Keelyn that people want this changed, while the exceptional power of Philosophical applies to a much wider set of leaders and strategies. But Summoner, while potent once it hits in the early midgame, is simply not worthy of attention in the way that Philosophical (the one trait needing to be toned down, if any do) or Aggressive (a sorry excuse for a trait, especially side by side with Raider) are.

Edit - Simple proof: how often do you hear about the Kurios or Malakim switching to Summoning?

 

[kenken244]

summoning cant be switched to by adaptive i believe

 

[daladinn]

i think most people have come to accept that the sheiam are weak , even coupled with the ashen veil they are still weak

 

[coppertop]

have the first summons at 100% loyalty the next at 75% loyalty the last at 50% loyalty to the caster so the more u summon there is an an increased risk that they turn on the caster

 

[vorshlumpf]

i think most people have come to accept that the sheiam are weak , even coupled with the ashen veil they are still weak

I don't play multi-player, so take this comment from that perspective, but every time I draw the Sheaim I clean house. Hmm, wait, no the first time I got my clock cleaned as soon as I switched to AV, but I learned my lesson from that.

 

[Bitwise]

You have to be careful weakening the Summoning trait, it has such a narrow focus, it would be incredibly easy to make it worthless.

 

[eerr]

You have to be careful weakening the Summoning trait, it has such a narrow focus, it would be incredibly easy to make it worthless.

lower it's power by 1 turn, and then give benefits for other things...

 

[xAlephx]

Sorry, my bad. Still, does anyone really want to make the argument that Summoning is stronger than Philosophical? Or that the Sheaim are more powerful than the Calabim?

Again, don't cite daladinn to me. He's playing at a crazy good level. We're talking civ, not player.

 

[daladinn]

aleph , to be honest i never make use of the summoning trait anymroe for the sheiam. i really really would love to see some other combo all together. oooo . spiritual/philosophicall .....

oo oo .... can we say taht he used to be elohim until he learned the real power in the universe and now he follows the true masters?

the last few game i won my highest arcane tech was knowledgeof the ether. i had festivals. and mining. had jsut gotten to highpriests when i ened the game.

tactic....
build the prophecy and sit on it a while. you need to build the unholy trinity of mage guild , festival thingy , and temple. then bring hyborem into the world to keep people busy (also if anyone loses nits he gets stronger). once you have the holy trinity , start build simple warriors with the prophecy mark. and have your other cities build the rituals. from the time you start this your enemies have at most 60 turns. also , if you can switch civics to draft , do so , the extra 5-7 turns you shave might be important.

things of note. do NOT have any unclaimed land anywhere near you. the horsemen tend to spawn in unclaimed or barbarian lands. best to be well clear when it happens.

gl all and enjoy

 

[Kael]

aleph , to be honest i never make use of the summoning trait anymroe for the sheiam. i really really would love to see some other combo all together. oooo . spiritual/philosophicall .....

oo oo .... can we say taht he used to be elohim until he learned the real power in the universe and now he follows the true masters?

You will be able to do this in "Shadow" and we won't even have to add or change any leaders to do it.

 

[Mithrus]

i think most people have come to accept that the sheiam are weak , even coupled with the ashen veil they are still weak

Remind me the next time I see you to smack you hard twice with a large trout, then pour rancid fish sauce on the wounds.

In case anyone DIDN'T realize it, his statement is not only false, it is as opposite from the truth as possible. The Shiem/AV combo is sick, overpowered, and nigh-invincible for anyone that is not in a coma. Daladinn should confirm the reality of the situation, but I know he loves how broken they are Feel free to share how many ways you can win with the Sheim that is nigh-impossible to prevent...kill the Shiem quick or you won't be able too ever.

---

I also agree though that the Philosophical trait is very strong, probably too strong. Perhaps reducing the bonus to 75% instead of 100% would help some. As it is, Phi + National Epic + Pacifism + {Religious Discipline/Scholarship} and using the GP to pop tech is absolutely insane. 250% not counting any other % bonuses from other sources.

 

[much2much]

I also agree though that the Philosophical trait is very strong, probably too strong. Perhaps reducing the bonus to 75% instead of 100% would help some. As it is, Phi + National Epic + Pacifism + {Religious Discipline/Scholarship} and using the GP to pop tech is absolutely insane. 250% not counting any other % bonuses from other sources.

If someone turtles down this path they deserve to get an exponential benefit. By the time you have Scholarship you will need to be popping something like 5 GPs to get a greatly benefitial tech, ie. Strength of Will. This is not game breaking, this kind of benefitial combinations adds flavour to the game. Heading towards this will make your civ weaker in other areas unless you are already eclipsing others in general.

I would lean on the other side and say the problem with these kind of synergistic strategies is they come way too late in the game.

 

[onedreamer]

In one game, I had 10 conjurers on a desert hill summoning sand lions every turn for 3 turns, I then sent those *30* lions all at once to fight Madero[...]

This may look unbalanced in Vanilla but it isn't in FFH. 10 units of any other kind (including conjurers, since you were standing on desert) may toast your conjurers pretty easily before they summon 30 lions, and it would take you quite a long time to replace them. The real problem is that the AI won't do it, the AI doesn't know well how to use most features of FFH -although it is improving- but most of all, it's completely clueless when it comes to counter-tactics. It's a general problem, not specific of Summoning and Summoner trait.
I think having 2 versions for FFH might help, one for MP with all features in, and one lighter for SP, without features that will let the player easily overcome the AI, the latest ones that I can think of and that kicked me back to 0.21 are baby spiders, animal packs and Elephants.