Survey Time: Which Civ3 tools would you kill for, on which Mac OS?

[AlanH]

We haven't had a poll for, oh, days and days!!

I for one am a little tired of seeing our friendly and numerous, but misguided Windows colleagues getting all the best Civ3 software toys. After all, since we have the good taste to choose the best computers, we deserve the best utilities, don't we?

So I'm thinking of devoting a little recreational programming time to hacking some goodies together for the rest of us. However, I don't want to do it only to find that no one's interested or I've chosen the wrong tools or the wrong OS, so here's a mini market survey.

1. I would like to know how many of us use OS 8/9, X.1 and X.2 respectively, so that's the poll quetion. I'll warn you in advance that there's a wrong answer to this one, and if you choose that one there'll be no Santa for you this year. The clue is in my new avatar.

2. I would also like to know what Civ3-related tools you would kill for on your preferred Mac platform, but I can't ask that as a multiple-choice poll question as I'm sure I don't know all the options, and some of you'll probably have your own ideas outside those already in existence. So please post your dreams and wishes and nightmares here.

I look forward to your answers and to seeing some bright ideas, and lively debate from the creative end of the Civ3 player spectrum.

 

[Trixter]

So... like... I'm not the only one who is, for now, too surprised by this incredibly generous offer to start up his brain and flood this thread with many great ideas for things I'd like to see (and have!)?

Wait... what _could_ you do?
I mean... would it be possible to... lets say... get an overlay for the worldmap, which lets you plan your cities (21-tile-border; overlap-indicator...) or would it be more like some app to analyse save-games or that helps you with your editing, say... a nice interface to change civilopedia entries which also handles the pediaicons-stuff?

BTW, any of those would make me happy...

 

[AlanH]

Thanks for getting it in gear, Trixter. I was beginning to wonder if the New York blackout had wiped out all the Mac-Civvers.

The city planner was something I had considered, 'specially in light of the recent RCP discussions. As well as border overlap (BTW I think overlap at pop 12 is at least as important as overlap at pop 20 - maybe more so), the corruption effects could be calculated for any given placement pattern. I think Dianthus, of CivReplay fame, already has something planned in this direction.

.SAV file analysis would be interesting. What sort of information would you like to be able to see? Mapstat gives some useful city statistics, and I must look at where the Windows version has reached now. But I also thought about trying to give a more intelligent picture of city corruption/waste, productivity, offering suggestions for more effective use of terrain, micro-management aids, optimum worker assignments, settler-farm options ..... ?

Is the pediaIcons stuff you mentioned an area of the editor that is neglected overall, or just in the current Mac editor? The pediaIcons.txt file is pretty simple stuff, in itself, but anything that's changed there has to be matched with changes in the other editor outputs.

I'm more nervous of getting into creation and editor territory, as I have little experience in that area, and the editor that exists is likely to be a work in progress by Firaxis or whoever for 1.29 compatibility, and maybe for Conquests ?????

Notes:
1. These are random ideas, with no real thought as to what's actually feasible

2. As a Gotm player, I am conscious of the need to avoid displaying spoiler information in any tools I might develop, so anything I do will have to be limited to the player's current knowledge of the map and of the rival civs..... I'm also most familiar with the 1.29 version, of course.

Keep it coming, guys.

 

[AlanH]

So far, then, the right poll answer from all but one respondent. 10.1.x is a bit of a pain, but much less so than OS 7/8/9. And I assume I don't have to cater for the "I don't have a Mac" visitor ... there's always one, isn't there!

 

[Trabpukcip]

I voted 10.2 but I'm just about to install ".3"... so I hope this is not going to take away Santa from my tree...

Anyway I personnaly don't even get to work with the editor correctly, so I don't expect anything very special. But if you could give me the ability to redesign the tech tree, that would be soooooooo nice...

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by Trabpukcip
I voted 10.2 but I'm just about to install ".3"... so I hope this is not going to take away Santa from my tree...

Anyway I personnaly don't even get to work with the editor correctly, so I don't expect anything very special. But if you could give me the ability to redesign the tech tree, that would be soooooooo nice...

Panther is only a problem in as far as I don't have it yet and, as a private individual, I can't afford the developer fees that Apple charge for beta access to it. I didn't put it in the list only because it's not released yet. As soon as it's on the streets I'll get it and aim for compatibility with it.

If you added techs I assume you would then want to change the dependencies of other aspects on your new techs - unit production, improvements, wonders ... Doesn't that mean you finish up wanting a complete scenario editor?

 

[Trabpukcip]

Originally posted by AlanH
I can't afford the developer fees that Apple charge for beta access to it.

Neither can I

Originally posted by AlanH
If you added techs I assume you would then want to change the dependencies of other aspects on your new techs - unit production, improvements, wonders ... Doesn't that mean you finish up wanting a complete scenario editor?

That's exactly right... but since I can't use the current editor without getting crashes every 3 turns or not having the changes I've made properly saved, I don't keep my hopes up to much.

 

[dojoboy]

10.2.6

 

[Lord Yanaek]

X.2
I was extremely doubtfull before i tried it, but now i rarely start in 9.

Well, what i'm really interested in is modding tools. However, the existing editor is already quite powerful when the modded interface files are added (allows to ADD units, techs etc), but unfortunately, still not works with 1.29. It's a shame since 1.29 allows for much better modding then previews version, much of the hardcoded features now "soft"coded.

But you said you are nervous about the editor, and there isn't really any modding that can't be done with civ3edit , an hex editor and patience.

2 yhings that would be nice thought :
-a bix-bic converter, obviously some data would be lost, but it would alow port of ptw mods to the mac side
-something to decompress compressed bic files, i think the new 1.29 bic is compressed or encripted in some way, cause it's unreadable when pened in hexedit.

But final word, anything you give us will be VERY MUCH appreciated

 

[AdrianE]

An event logger (for QSC) would be much appreciated. I always forget the details like what I traded to whom and when wonders were built.

Adrian

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by Bob Morane
But you said you are nervous about the editor, and there isn't really any modding that can't be done with civ3edit , an hex editor and patience.

Yes, my main concern is not to reinvent the wheel. Brad has said that he has most of a 1.29 editor port done, so it seems a wasted effort to try to do it the hard way, reverse engineering all the bits and bytes, getting some of it wrong, only to see a fully-functional official editor arrive from Westlake.

If there are some awkward things you find you are doing regularly with HexEdit then we could maybe make them a bit easier.

2 yhings that would be nice thought :
-a bix-bic converter, obviously some data would be lost, but it would alow port of ptw mods to the mac side

That might be possible, I'll look into it. I'm not sure how to deal with the bits that get lost - just ignore them and leave them out of the bic?

-something to decompress compressed bic files, i think the new 1.29 bic is compressed or encripted in some way, cause it's unreadable when pened in hexedit.

That's not too difficult. I know how to decompress a file so I just have to save the decompressed version. I'll have a look at that.

Actually, now I think of it, you can do it already. If you run JMapstat you'll find that it produces a temporary file in the same location as the application when you open a compressed file. That's a decompressed version of the file and it is deleted after you use the menu to produce the map or city statistics. Copy that file somewhere else before you run the statistics and you're done

Thanks for your ideas. Keep them coming, and I promise to look at them seriously.

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by AdrianE
An event logger (for QSC) would be much appreciated. I always forget the details like what I traded to whom and when wonders were built.

Adrian

Me too. I don't forget them, 'cos I write them all down. Now I just have to learn to read my handwriting, which has become more and more illegible as my two-finger typing got quicker.

I think a logger of some kind ought to be possible, and I have already started investigations on the Windows side to see what exists that I could use. The Windows version is not stable enough yet to allow any porting. Last saw they were fighting performance problems.

The Windows product is intended to have a free-form notes entry facility so that you can add your own comments to the events logged for any turn. On the Mac there's a bit of a problem that you would have to pause the game to do this, as it doesn't run in a window.

A lot of what happens during a major trading session is the trial and error and decision cycles you go through before you get to an actual deal event. This may only be loggable using free-form user input.

Also, I don't yet know whether the Mac version will allow the same game memory access that's being used by the Windows tool. Unix's memory protection may get in the way. If this is the case then it may be possible to do a bit of logging by analysing autosave files, but I don't think that could provide much trade deal logging at all, and it would also limit the unit action information.

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by Trabpukcip
That's exactly right... but since I can't use the current editor without getting crashes every 3 turns or not having the changes I've made properly saved, I don't keep my hopes up to much.

It sounds like you need some tips from Bob Morane. He seems to be using the editor OK.

 

[Lord Yanaek]

Originally posted by AlanH
The Windows product is intended to have a free-form notes entry facility so that you can add your own comments to the events logged for any turn. On the Mac there's a bit of a problem that you would have to pause the game to do this, as it doesn't run in a window.

Mhh, where is the problem there "apple"-H will pause and "hide" the game. You then have acces to any application. Or maybe that's what you mean by "a bit of a problem"

It sounds like you need some tips from Bob Morane. He seems to be using the editor OK.

Not that much already, since i'm new to Civ3, but i like modding, so one of the first things i did was launch the editor (first thing was play a game ). Then i looked at the bic using the "bic file format" threa from apolyton as a guide. Then i had a look at the civilopedia and pedialcons.txt. I figured there was real possibilities, and that's why i said "there isn't really any modding that can't be done with civ3edit , an hex editor and patience.". The keyword is "patience", i know i will be able to edit a lot of features, but it will take some time. However, i haven't so far tryed any major modding, maybe i'll get horrible crashes too

Trabpukcip, are you saying your changes crash civ 3, or is it the editor that keeps crashing. It seems pretty stable on my mac, and so far have saved my (minor) modifications pretty well. Civ 3 runs fine too, but like i said i haven't tryed major modding.

Concerning hex editing, i'm no computer guru, but most of the research work have been done on bic files, now it's just a matter of changing the right bytes. I can do this .

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by Bob Morane

Mhh, where is the problem there "apple"-H will pause and "hide" the game. You then have acces to any application. Or maybe that's what you mean by "a bit of a problem"

Well, I think hiding the game to enter notes is a real problem, but maybe it's just me. There's lots of detail on screen that you might want to reference in the notes, and if you have to hide the screen you are going to finish up writing it down first - rather defeating the object. Switching between Civ3 and another app would be no problem if Civ3 stayed visible.

For example, you get into a trading round after you've made a new contact. You might then have a lot of trade options with your existing contacts, your new contact and then with his new contacts as you buy them. Some of these critical trading rounds involve multiple visits to the other civs and a lot of tactical thinking. I like to record a lot of this detail, both to use at the time and for later analysis to see if I could have achieved more.

Originally posted by AdrianE

... and when wonders were built

I meant to remind you, you can retrieve your wonder completion dates if you look in the Cultural Advisor screen (F5). It lists the cultural improvements and their completion dates in any city you select.

 

[Ricardo]

I guess the two goodies I would like to see are similar to what some of you guys have already proposed: 1. some sort of event recorder for helping to generate the quick start timelines and 2. some sort of optimal city placement tool. where you could perhaps either click on a settler and get info on how settling at that spot would effect your culture and what production/corruption the city would have or maybe it would overlay on your capital city and show you some sort of sphere of corruption. I personally always have a hard time predicting how much corruption a new city will be susceptible to especially after building the forbidden palace.

 

[Trabpukcip]

Well, when I make minor modifications theres is not any real problem, but when I try to add new units and pretty anything new, civ3 crashes nearly all the time. And thats when my new features actually get saved.

But the editor doesn't crash by itself, it's civ3 that crash when I play my edited games.

 

[Sid]

OT on the Editor: I want to add my own voice to Trab's comments -- exactly the same for me + I have a separate installation of 1.21 & civ3Edit. Every scenario/mod that I have produced crashes Civ3.

AlanH: thanks so much for this offer -- it's a bit like have our own personal systems analyst <grin> I would love to have a) a program that bypasses the autoexe files that some civ3 PC mods use; and b) another that does a step-by-step (or automated) extraction of files to the appropriate folders.

My dream is to play a Grand Europe Napoleonic mod of Civ3 with authentic starts for all the major powers. Lots of strategic movements and naval battles/sieges/etc.

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by Trabpukcip
Well, when I make minor modifications theres is not any real problem, but when I try to add new units and pretty anything new, civ3 crashes nearly all the time. And thats when my new features actually get saved.

But the editor doesn't crash by itself, it's civ3 that crash when I play my edited games.

As I understand it the editor itself doesn't let you add new stuff, does it? I haven't used it at all really, as I'm running 1.29 and it's not compatible. I once tried to get a head start on practice for the Gotm by adding a new civ and/or a new unit in 1.21 and I couldn't make it happen. Not only could I not add new units, but if I tried to edit an existing unit to use a new set of parameters, icons and so on, they didn't seem to stick.

I did see something about a third party .nib file that inserts an Add menu command, but if this has been created independently from the editor, I'm not sure how it would help. It will fail unless there's full support for it in the editor software, and if the editor software can handle it I can't see why the command would be missing from its menus.

P'raps we need input from Brad on the present status of the editor, and the likelihood of an "authorised" version that supports added units and civs and is compatible with v1.29.

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by Sid
it's a bit like have our own personal systems analyst <grin>

Lol! Hold that thought until you see some results!

I would love to have a) a program that bypasses the autoexe files that some civ3 PC mods use; and b) another that does a step-by-step (or automated) extraction of files to the appropriate folders.

Are the "autoexec" files Windows installation programs? If so then are you looking for something that will take that file and run it as though it was a Mac installer? That would only need to be a single program if it's possible at all.

As I have not explored the mods forums, please can you point me at a specific PC mod file and I'll take a look at the problem. No promises