SVN588, need feedback!

[JosEPh_II]

I reserve the right to disagree here.

6 tiles from your border Is Not deep within your territory, that's an exaggeration.

Sounds more like you are weak defensively, had inadequate defenders along your borders and didn't pay attention to the war build up from that neighbor. More of a playstyle snafu/oversight than a mod or game fault.

Sorry it's how I see it.

JosEPh

 

[Arkatakor]

I reserve the right to disagree here.

6 tiles from your border Is Not deep within your territory, that's an exaggeration.

Sounds more like you are weak defensively, had inadequate defenders along your borders and didn't pay attention to the war build up from that neighbor. More of a playstyle snafu/oversight than a mod or game fault.

Sorry it's how I see it.

JosEPh

The reason the original firaxis devs made the commando promotion so difficult to achieve was because its a huge deal to be able to use enemy roads. Now this mod is giving this ability away for free, all the while making the commando promotion redundant.

We will need to get more opinions on this, but I stand by mine in that this is a game breaker. In the meanwhile I would like to know where (XML files) this modification was made so I can revert it. Thanks.

 

[Yaromir]

Inclined to agree with Arkatakor, though I don't think it is game-breaking.

I also don't think it has to be movement speed of 1 tile as long as it is not 6.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Did the attacking units all possess the Commando Promotion?

What version? From the SVN? Latest is 600.

Last time I tried to look at a save game from you Ark I couldn't open it.

I have yet to experience what you are posting about in my test games. And I can't tell you off the top of my head where everything in the Mod concerning unit movement is located. It could be a multiplicative effect from roads, Promotions, units etc.

I'll look into the xml and see what I can dig up. But in the meantime a screenshot and usable savegame might help.

JosEPh

 

[Arkatakor]

Did the attacking units all possess the Commando Promotion?

What version? From the SVN? Latest is 600./QUOTE]Was playing the latest version. Can't upload a save as i saved AFTER they got to my city. I can replay that part to upload the save but it seems redundant since according to you the enemy can use your roads so there is nothing to verify.

As mentioned previously, not a single unit had the commando promotion.

Inclined to agree with Arkatakor, though I don't think it is game-breaking.

I also don't think it has to be movement speed of 1 tile as long as it is not 6.

I believe approx 1/3 movement in enemy territory would be a good compromise. Also I am not sure if occupied forts exert a zone of control like in Cilvilization I, but if that could be implemented, in conjunction with the approx 1/3 movement speed it could balance things out somewhat. And then maybe not, because the AI would have to be programmed to take advantage of that feature. So its probably more simple to just severley restrict movement points in enemy territory so that if the human attack the dumb AI, the AI will at least have time to rally forces in the right place rather than the human just charging defenseless cities.

 

[Yaromir]

AI would have to be programmed to take advantage of that feature

That's a severe restricting factor, isn't it?

The real issue here is that roads have infinite throughput per turn. Another is ridiculous army sizes and stack sizes. ZOC would be a very nice feature though...

 

[JosEPh_II]

Afforess tried ZOC before and it had issues. If he had issues with it I'm in no hurry to try to reinstate, if I even could.

JosEPh

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

Build and man forts, they exert a zone of control 1 tile about the fort. Build these on all you main roads, and you have a zone of control, want a front, build a string of them.

 

[Arkatakor]

Build and man forts, they exert a zone of control 1 tile about the fort. Build these on all you main roads, and you have a zone of control, want a front, build a string of them.

No they don't exert a zone of control. Just tested it and the stack walked right by my manned fort like it was not even there.

That's a severe restricting factor, isn't it?

The real issue here is that roads have infinite throughput per turn. Another is ridiculous army sizes and stack sizes. ZOC would be a very nice feature though...

Yes the unhindered movement in enemy territory is gamebreaking. While I understand that its a bit limiting to allow only 1 movement in enemy territory the current implementation, allowing unhindered access, is on the other extreme. It also renders the commando promotion redundant in the process.

There has to be another way to implement movement in enemy territory without restricting it to 1 tile per turn or giving them full access to your road network. I am sure most people would agree that a compromise would do it. I am suggesting 1/3 or 2/3 (max) usage of enemy transport network - just food for thought here.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Well, I was thinking of removing the free commando promotion because I also think it's too strong. 6 tiles deep in your territory can be deep or not depending on the map size. I agree with Arkatakor, vanilla civ didn't give enemy units a chance to use roads unless they had commando promotion (which is a 5th level promotion iirc, exactly because it wasn't supposed to be easy to achieve), and the same goes for your units. BUT I've read before of the problem of enemy using your roads even when they don't have commando promotion, Afforess was working on it before he left. A savegame could help so that I can check because it's a long time that I don't face this problem. It probably isn't a matter of xml anyway, it's something deeper in the code, maybe inside the dll too.

 

[Arkatakor]

Well, I was thinking of removing the free commando promotion because I also think it's too strong. 6 tiles deep in your territory can be deep or not depending on the map size. I agree with Arkatakor, vanilla civ didn't give enemy units a chance to use roads unless they had commando promotion (which is a 5th level promotion iirc, exactly because it wasn't supposed to be easy to achieve), and the same goes for your units. BUT I've read before of the problem of enemy using your roads even when they don't have commando promotion, Afforess was working on it before he left. A savegame could help so that I can check because it's a long time that I don't face this problem. It probably isn't a matter of xml anyway, it's something deeper in the code, maybe inside the dll too.

I am glad you feel the same way about this issue. I will add that its quite annoying that the mounted enemy (with commando removed as per my XML files) can waltz into your territory and attack random workers and pillage tiles all in the same turn. I was also glad to find out that its a bug which explains things because the enemy didn't always go deep into my territory despite my having unprotected workers. If I get invaded again and this happens, i'll be sure to upload a save.

I have also looked into the stack attack issue we talked about the other day. I enabled it thru the bug options menu and what it does (by default) is create an animation that shows all the units attacking at the same time. This should not happen. Its this stack animation that causes instability. In the default BTS game as well as the mod as of 1.75C, stack attack automatically skipped any form of animation (zoomed or unzoomed), whether or not quick attack was enabled. The only way I got it to work as the older versions was to enable stack attack in bug menu and enable quick attack in the default menu. This skips the stack animation and has zero stability issues.

The only way to fix the stability issue with stack attack is to remove any form of animation related to stack attack and always have stack attack function as a quick attack, regardless of if the latter is enabled in the game options. This would enable the user to keep the animation attacks for single units all the while skipping them when he chooses to stack attack.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I am glad you feel the same way about this issue. I will add that its quite annoying that the mounted enemy (with commando removed as per my XML files) can waltz into your territory and attack random workers and pillage tiles all in the same turn. I was also glad to find out that its a bug which explains things because the enemy didn't always go deep into my territory despite my having unprotected workers. If I get invaded again and this happens, i'll be sure to upload a save.

I have also looked into the stack attack issue we talked about the other day. I enabled it thru the bug options menu and what it does (by default) is create an animation that shows all the units attacking at the same time. This should not happen. Its this stack animation that causes instability. In the default BTS game as well as the mod as of 1.75C, stack attack automatically skipped any form of animation (zoomed or unzoomed), whether or not quick attack was enabled. The only way I got it to work as the older versions was to enable stack attack in bug menu and enable quick attack in the default menu. This skips the stack animation and has zero stability issues.

The only way to fix the stability issue with stack attack is to remove any form of animation related to stack attack and always have stack attack function as a quick attack, regardless of if the latter is enabled in the game options. This would enable the user to keep the animation attacks for single units all the while skipping them when he chooses to stack attack.

No, the stack problem is the settings. If you set stack limits too low it causes problems. This was discovered in C2C and Afforess incorporated much of C2C's .dll from C2C v23 iirc, as has 45*. The Stack limit needs to stay at -1.

As for your problem with AI using your roads, when you invade are your units restricted to 1 tile movements per turn? I bet they are not.

You can call it game breaking all you want but it is not. But as 45* agrees with you then it's in his hands because I do not see a problem.

That's how I see it.

JosEPh

 

[Arkatakor]

As for your problem with AI using your roads, when you invade are your units restricted to 1 tile movements per turn? I bet they are not.

Yes my units are restricted to 1 tile movement per turn in enemy territory. Always.

As for the stack issue, I was merely sharing my observations; I am certain that removing all animations in stack attack will resolve all the stability issues.

 

[Arkatakor]

Okies, I just got declared war on and the enemy was able to use my transportation network. I have uploaded a save from the turn before I get declared on. I have also uploaded my XML schema incase there is a conflict with the save game somewhere. My directory is now the default directory so the save should work. Let me know if there is any more information (log files or whatnot) that I can supply.

It would be really great to have this issue fixed. Its the only real bug I have encountered sofar. I also have to say; end turn times in this latest AND is at least six times faster in the industrial era than in 1.76C. Really well done! Once the outstanding issues are ironed out this will be the mod of mods