swiss merc

[Omni314]

ok so the musketman upgrades to the swiss merc, thats 2.4.1 to 1.4.1. Thats not an up grade thats a down grade. So I dont upgrade most of the muskets but I have built some swiss mercs, and now that I have nationalism I cant up grade the swiss mercs, is there any point to the swiss merc

I've always hated the dutch, they always turn up next to me and be annoying, now i thought that i am dutch it wouldnt annoy me... i was wrong

 

[Calis]

ok so the musketman upgrades to the swiss merc, thats 2.4.1 to 1.4.1. Thats not an up grade thats a down grade. So I dont upgrade most of the muskets but I have built some swiss mercs, and now that I have nationalism I cant up grade the swiss mercs, is there any point to the swiss merc

I've always hated the dutch, they always turn up next to me and be annoying, now i thought that i am dutch it wouldnt annoy me... i was wrong

That's not correct. The Swiss Merc comes before the muskets in the tech tree. But as they already have 4 def and cost only 50% of the musket they are waaay better. I am not sure whether you can upgrade the Mercs to muskets at all, but if you can DON'T do it.

But I would think that you can upgrade the mercs to rifles. But again, I would stick to the Mercs until infantry. Two Swiss Mercenaries are better than one rifle and still cost less!!

As a summary: The Swiss Mercs are a fantastic defensive unit!!!!

 

[ThinkTank]

You cannot upgrade swiss mercs to muskets. I don't know why not, I mean Calis is right that it's a bad idea, but that in itself does not prove that the game does not allow it. I play the Dutch a lot and I have never considered it, so I had to open an old save to actually try it out.

 

[simspacey]

Its kindof weird. If you can upgrade a Pikeman to a musketman, you should be able to do the same with the Swiss Mercenaries. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the Swiss Mercs are special units? That would also mean that (for example) a russian cossack (or rider they might be called) cant be upgraded to a Cavalry??

And i know you probably thought of this, but you need salpeter (and a barracks or marketplace perhaps?) to upgrade to Musketmen. But im guessing you did think about that, right? I mentioned it anyway just in case!

 

[Calis]

You also can't upgrade Immortals to Medieval Infantry. The difference of course is that both have the same stats, but the 2 attack of the musket is irrelevant anyway.

More interesting is whether you can upgrade Swiss Mercs to rifles.

The Russian Cossack IS the cavalry unit. I think you mean the Chinese Rider, which you definately can upgrade to cavalry...

The main factor, whether you can or cannot upgrade is, whether the upgrade changes anything to the better.

Gallic Swords to MI --> Yes, MI have better offense
Immortals to MI--> No, same stats
Hoplit to Pike --> No, same stats
Legion to MI --> Yes, better offense
Rider to cavalry --> Yes, better attack

There might be exception, but usually that's it...

 

[Spoonwood]

Assuming your reasoning goes right Calis, then
Numidian Merc's to pikeman--> No. WORSE stats.

 

[Calis]

Assuming your reasoning goes right Calis, then
Numidian Merc's to pikeman--> No. WORSE stats.

Yepp, right...

 

[Calis]

Just checked it. The Swiss Merc upgrades to rifleman...

You just need a barracks in the town of course, but no resources are needed for the rifles.

 

[TheOverseer714]

I think the swiss merc is an unusual UU in that it replaces not one but two normal units, the pikeman and the musketman. I like having a cheap musketman, myself. I might hesitate at upgrading an SM to Infantry unless I had Leo's, but otherwise the SM is a fine unit.

 

[Mathias]

Upgrade paths are linear and one-directional. For the Netherlands, this is Spearman-Musketman-Swiss Mercenary-Rifleman-Infantry-Mech Infantry. Furthermore, only one unit* from the path can be available to a city at any given time, and that unit will be the furthest along the path for which you have the required technology and resources. The SM is further along the path so that it will still be available after you have saltpeter. The only reason the Musketman is available to the Netherlands in the first place is to allow the stronger defender (as opposed to Spearman) in case you are lacking Iron. * Edit: UUs will be available alongside their more-advanced counterparts if you have not had a Golden Age.

The main factor, whether you can or cannot upgrade is, whether the upgrade changes anything to the better.

The main factor, the only factor, is the relative position in the upgrade path as determined by the rules. This upgrade path excludes units not available to the civilization in question, e.g. Pikemen are not available to Carthage, Greece, or Netherlands. (I suppose you could argue that having a barracks, any needed resource, and sufficient gold are other factors, but in this context, those should be taken as granted.)

Immortals do upgrade to Medieval Infantry. Allowing Persia to essentially build discount macemen was probably considered to be unbalanced gameplay. The complete path is Warrior-Swordsman-Gallic Swordsman-Legionary-Immortals-Medieval Infantry-Guerilla-TOW Infantry.

 

[Gamemaster77]

How could roman sordsman upgrsde to gallic swordsman when that is the celts unit

 

[Mathias]

Rome builds Legionaries, not swordsmen, so you couldn't have a Roman swordsman to begin with.

As I stated in my previous post, "upgrade path excludes units not available to the civilization in question"

Upgrade path for Rome is Warrior-Legionary-Medieval Infantry-Guerilla-TOW Infantry

The complete upgrade path includes all of the swordsman UUs so that a warrior can upgrade to any of those UUs.

 

[eldar]

The Sumerian Enkidu is an odd one: it's both a Warrior AND Spearman replacement, meaning they can't build either unit (and why would you want to when you get a 1-2-1 unit for 10s?)

It's a strange upgrade path though.

Spear->Numidian->Pike->Musket->Swiss Merc is one path.

The Hoplite isn't part of this path at all, and neither is the Enkidu. They both get their own paths, with Enkidu going to Pike->Musket etc. and the Hoplite going to Musket->Rifle etc.

 

[Civinator]

Upgrade paths are linear and one-directional. For the Netherlands, this is Spearman-Musketman-Swiss Mercenary-Rifleman-Infantry-Mech Infantry. Furthermore, only one unit* from the path can be available to a city at any given time, and that unit will be the furthest along the path for which you have the required technology and resources.

Yes. And to make it even more complicated: The way of uprading was changed by Firaxis during the updates of the Civ 3 expansion sets as the great advantage of a linear upgrading path of different units was dicovered lately: The possibility to upgrade different unique units to a later unit that is shared between most civs. So it can happen, that you look on different upgrading paths for different patches of Civ 3 expansion sets.

 

[Bowsling]

The Sumerian Enkidu is an odd one: it's both a Warrior AND Spearman replacement, meaning they can't build either unit (and why would you want to when you get a 1-2-1 unit for 10s?)

odd. the Mayans can build spearmen, but i don't know why anyone wold want to other than to upgrade to a pike.
I can't totally remember, but can't the dutch build musketmen if they lack iron?

 

[Spoonwood]

Spears cost less than javelin throwers and you could also upgrade spears to muskets, or even further along in the path, but you can only use disconnect-reconnect for spears-pikes or muskets effectively.

 

[eldar]

I'd build spears over javs as the Mayans if I wanted to avoid an early GA. If I had a 2+ def unit threatening a city from a mountain I'd rather build a spear and defend than build an archer/jav to attack. The same goes for Babylon.