[Sword of Islam]: Byzantine Conquest

[jammerculture]

Damascus' culture will also flip Sur, which can be disbanded before the crusaders are born. Also the resources around Damascus will easily cover the rising science and maintenance costs. Altogether the spices and incense will give +4gold in five cities via the Venetians, so it is almost as capturing a shrine.

Could you expand on this please. The use of companies is one of the aspects of SOI that I am not very strong with.

Turn 3 Khan Krum's invasion ends. No losses.

I remember how adamant THE Turk was in including this invasion. Now every game I laugh when I inevitably see the message that Khan Krum has died

 

[rrosen]

Turn 1: Nothing.

Turn 2: Nothing.

Turn 3: We get the greek fire quest for 6 war galleys. I have lowered the science rate to secure a small economic buffer.

Spoiler :

Turn 4: Set Constantinople to lighthouse. Capture Dimasq for no losses and start building the spiral minaret.

Spoiler :

Peace with Abbasids (we gain 1 gpt).

Spoiler :

Turn 5: Hire a Varangian guard to beef up barbarian defenses. We have one worker in Dimasq already, but I start moving another one there.

Turn 6: Barbarians near Sinope.

Turn 7: More barbarians (as well as one close to amastris). Amastris and Tarsos lacks defenders. While Tarsos is not threatened, I think Amastris may be at severe risk. I send the horsemens home from Damaskos, keeping the swordsman as a now triple city attack promoted defender.

Spoiler :

Turn 8: Barbarians pillage a mine. Varangian guard rushed towards Amastris to defend.

Turn 9: Worker moving towards Damaskos through anitoch, with horse escorts. Simultaenously, I start working wheat field. I think we need to keep a horse there to prevent the killing of the worker by units from Antioch?

Spoiler :

Turn 10: Sinopi defends a barbarian attack. Muslim swordsmen pillage the Black Sea coastline. Varangian guard kills the peasant outside Amastris.

To do:
1: We need defenders in Tarsos, Amastris and Damaskos.
2: Some offensive capabilities for the barbarians. I prefer horsemen against the swordsmen and axemen against peasants, though we may want to use mercenaries since we don't have a military infrastructure.
3: The Bulgarian Raider should be sent to meet other civs.
4: We need to decide what to do about the culture. We cannot work an artist currently, and a great person will spawn in 11 turns. We need one turn for lighthouse and 7 turns for hippodrome.
5: Sea defenses.
6: Meet Armenians, set full spying against them and give away the city.

 

[jammerculture]

Why Armenians and not Abbasids?

 

[rrosen]

Could you expand on this please. The use of companies is one of the aspects of SOI that I am not very strong with.

There are three sides to companies: How to attract them, economic benefits and additional benefits.

1: The primary way to attract companies is to have the resources they use. Additionally, the chance can be increased by other means. They also have a strong geographic component: Venetians and Genoans in the meditteranean coast, the Portugese Companies in the east etc. The geographic areas can usually be deduced by the flavour text on companies in the civilopedia. Some buildings increase the probability, most notably religious and science buildings for sufis. They compete, and can therefore decrease each others likelihood.

2: Let's take an example. The civilopedia, companies says that Venetians Merchants have "All cities, +2 gold per resource consumed" and that it consumes spices, silks and incense. Assume you have three silks, one spice and no incense and three cities with Venetian Merchants. Then in every city you will get 6 (for the silks) + 2 (spice) =8 gold per city, for a total of 8*3=24 gold from the Venetian Merchants. Therefore, if you have alot of companies in many cities, each additional resource provides a very nice boost.

3: This is the main difference between SoI and regular BTS. Some, like the Ayyubids, require certain companies for their victory conditions. But they also have nice additional benefits. I think the main uses are the following: If you have sufis you can build a sufi shrine, increasing the great person points. You can also train sufi missionaries, which can spread both sunni and shia and ignore the need for open borders. If you have karamids, venetians or genoans and a harbour you can build their respective quarters, increasing your income and so on.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I'm torn between espionage against Abbasids vs. Armenia. On the one hand, until the latter actually researches a tech we don't have, it's useless to spy against them. Abbasids are much more advanced in tech. However, Abbasids often collapse with Buyids attacking them, and when we have the necessary espionage to steal a tech, it's often too late. The distance is also quite large between Samarra and Constantinople.

 

[rrosen]

Especially since we captured Dimasq, they should be extra prone to collapse.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

The swordsman is very vulnerable in Damascus. Muslim axemen and desert camel archers will make mincemeat of him.
I would switch the build in Damascus to at least an archer, or send an archer from Asia Minor (the one near Atteleia can probably go since it's unlikely to be attacked).

 

[rrosen]

True. The horse archer escorting the worker could stay down there until we've got an archer.

 

[jammerculture]

Thanks for the response rrosen. I understand the basics behind how the companies work it's just the nuances of working them into a strategy. In this case we have identified that we have the resources for the Venetians and a need for what they give (gold) so it makes sense to try to attract them.

I like to keep a horse warrior in Damascus to get the early archers and axemen in the dessert before they can get my iron. Against camels, the newly upgraded spearmen would be the way to go.

Back to espionage and Armenia: what is the long term goal with Armenia? Typically I vassalize them which is a no go in this game iirc, so conquest would be in order. In this case giving away a city seems to have no benefit. On espionage, Armenia typically researches religious techs which have some helpful wonders. Although abbasids have some more advanced techs, like crucible steel, they don't have any immediate bearing on the strategy laid out.

 

[Jusos2108]

I'm torn between espionage against Abbasids vs. Armenia. On the one hand, until the latter actually researches a tech we don't have, it's useless to spy against them. Abbasids are much more advanced in tech. However, Abbasids often collapse with Buyids attacking them, and when we have the necessary espionage to steal a tech, it's often too late. The distance is also quite large between Samarra and Constantinople.

Definetly the Abbasids, Armenia will trade techs to us, so there is no point stealing them. Also when the Abbasids respawn the espionage points will still be there.

The swordsman is very vulnerable in Damascus. Muslim axemen and desert camel archers will make mincemeat of him.
I would switch the build in Damascus to at least an archer, or send an archer from Asia Minor (the one near Atteleia can probably go since it's unlikely to be attacked).

I agree, we could sent one from Attaleia, since Damascus will need every hammer it can spare. I should also get Orthodoxy there ASAP. I would also station the merc HA in there for fighting the Bedouins.

Also I still would say that we can't give away a city to the Armenians.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Conquest allows for vassals. It's just unfortunate that one of the rules, namely,

5. Must have at least one city in each civ's spawn area

Means that we have to capture a city in Armenian spawn area. (Maybe we can take advantage of the Mongols and just found a city when they raze the native cities there?)

Again, no flips doesn't mean we can't give away a city. It will be impossible later on not to give cities when we conquer lots of other civs (we need vassals in places where respawns are common, e.g. India). In fact, by giving the Armenians a city, we've potentially made the Rum threat bigger (they might declare war on Rum--when Sevasteia flips to Rum--to help us but instead, they've given the Rum another stack!).

 

[jammerculture]

what purpose would giving a city away be if you don't plan on vassalizing?

Also, my swordsman keeps dying at Tarsos. I kill one barb with him beforehand giving me one CR promotion, (in your screenshot he has two) which gives me 60% odds but he keeps dying. I am not wasting time, traveling straight to the first barb spawn in the east and then straight to Tarsos, so i attack around turn 14 ish, yet more times then not he fails to take out the archer. What am I doing wrong?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I am not wasting time, traveling straight to the first barb spawn in the east and then straight to Tarsos, so i attack around turn 14 ish, yet more times then not he fails to take out the archer. What am I doing wrong?

It's called the reload function.

Giving away a city will allow better science due to the science penalty with more cities, as well as less maintenance. And yes, it doesn't make sense to me not to vassalize the Armenians. All we need to do is found a city in their spawn area when the Mongols trash them.

 

[jammerculture]

It's called the reload function.

Well yeah, that's what I'm resorting too most of the time. I guess my real question is how did your swordsman get two promos?

 

[blizzrd]

Well yeah, that's what I'm resorting too most of the time. I guess my real question is how did your swordsman get two promos?

I can answer this one. He attacked a Barbarian Muslim Swordsman using one of the early "free wins" against barbs at bad odds very early in the first turn set. Not hard to get 5XP from the first contest, although 4XP is possible too.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

For that you'll have to ask blizzrd for specifics. My guess is that he attacked the Muslim Swordsman on a highly unfavorable terrain (e.g. a forested hill) and since he won with the free barb strike, the XP gained from it is much more valuable, allowing the promotions. I do that all the time with my free strikes.

Note: crosspost with b!

 

[blizzrd]

But it's OK to give cities away, no, if it's not a flip?

I am not going to give away any of our cities, since IMO that defys the rules.

I'm not quite 100% against giving away cities to our vassals or to civs that we want to set up as our vassals, but you'd need to convince me before I think I would be OK with giving away any of our cities.

How do you guys handle the waiting with these games? lol

I do not know how it is even possible to play civ twelve turns at a time. I started a byzantine game to use as a semi-shadow game, but when the battle lust faded I had already taken out Rum lol.

I like SGs because they show me how I can improve my play. When I play long stretches at a time, I often look back over a 100 turn set or so and realise that I've forgotten about something that could have been optimised for a much better result.

I'm back now, is it correct to assume that the order is blizzrd-AP-Jusos-rrosen-Science Rules?

I think so, I've updated the OP along these lines.

BTW, Science Rules - you're up!

We need to decide on the culture question. I've never done Samanid raid. How many units do you need to be reasonable sure of succeeding? When will they need to be sent? Should we pop a great artist, but not settle it, and just look at the culture scoring in 1000 to see if we need to bomb it?

Two Cataphracts should be enough. We should probably send the first two built out of Ankyra (where we should definitely build the Heroic Epic, and soon).

Damascus' culture will also flip Sur, which can be disbanded before the crusaders are born.

Our suped-up Swordsman should take some target practice against the defenders in Sur, Antioch and Edessa, even as soon as straight away. He's not going to be any good at defending in any case and the defenders in the Rebel cities will only get stronger with more time.

I find that once one defender in each city is destroyed, the flip to us can happen so much faster - Edessa particularly so. This is also a good way to get an Archer, with a flip (and disband) of a Rebel city to us. I suggest Edessa might be a good target to walk our Swordsman towards for some easy target practice.

Also the resources around Damascus will easily cover the rising science and maintenance costs. Altogether the spices and incense will give +4gold in five cities via the Venetians, so it is almost as capturing a shrine.

Check. Damascus = very good city to have, especially early.

Check System is pretty useless imo. I found that building gold, before all the infra is ready, is a bit like wasting resources. We'll also want to have Mechanical Engineering and Blast Furnace way before the mongols show up. With Heavy Lancers the Mongols go down like wheat.

I'm with jusos on all of these points.

Version 0.3.5 is out. (Save compatible with 0.3.4)
http://sourceforge.net/projects/sword-of-islam/

Can we all please update to 0.3.5? I'm downloading now.

Turn 3: We get the greek fire quest for 6 war galleys.

I do like this quest. Once Smyrna has built all of the relevant infrastructure, we should build the remaining War Galleys for this quest - make sure we have 50g in hand for the Siphonarios though!

To do:
1: We need defenders in Tarsos, Amastris and Damaskos.

Tarsos doesn't need a defender. But the other two cities do.

2: Some offensive capabilities for the barbarians. I prefer horsemen against the swordsmen and axemen against peasants, though we may want to use mercenaries since we don't have a military infrastructure.

You got it, mercs are our way through the early barbs.

4: We need to decide what to do about the culture. We cannot work an artist currently, and a great person will spawn in 11 turns. We need one turn for lighthouse and 7 turns for hippodrome.

I don't think we need to worry about culture generation in our capital too much. The focus should be on meeting the Samanids and scouting their ability to culture bomb one of their cities.

6: Meet Armenians, set full spying against them and give away the city.

Not convinced about this at all. Not only do we not need to give away any of our cities, but the Armenians will trade any tech that we might steal from them.

Back to espionage and Armenia: what is the long term goal with Armenia? Typically I vassalize them which is a no go in this game iirc, so conquest would be in order.

There is no SG rule against having vassals, unless we want to make one (but why?).

On espionage, Armenia typically researches religious techs which have some helpful wonders. Although abbasids have some more advanced techs, like crucible steel, they don't have any immediate bearing on the strategy laid out.

I think we will need to research Crucible Steel for ourselves, unless our first Great Person is a Great Spy.

I should also get Orthodoxy there ASAP.

This should indeed be a priority, probably in Ankyra.

 

[Jusos2108]

I'm not quite 100% against giving away cities to our vassals or to civs that we want to set up as our vassals, but you'd need to convince me before I think I would be OK with giving away any of our cities.

I phrased myself a bit poorly. What I meant was that, if the rules say that we must deny all flips, then giving our city to Armenia from Rum's flipping zone would, in my opinion, be against the rules. Later giving cities to our vassals is fine.

I like SGs because they show me how I can improve my play. When I play long stretches at a time, I often look back over a 100 turn set or so and realise that I've forgotten about something that could have been optimised for a much better result.
I think so, I've updated the OP along these lines.

Exactly!

Our suped-up Swordsman should take some target practice against the defenders in Sur, Antioch and Edessa, even as soon as straight away. He's not going to be any good at defending in any case and the defenders in the Rebel cities will only get stronger with more time.

I find that once one defender in each city is destroyed, the flip to us can happen so much faster - Edessa particularly so. This is also a good way to get an Archer, with a flip (and disband) of a Rebel city to us. I suggest Edessa might be a good target to walk our Swordsman towards for some easy target practice.

That's a good idea.

I do like this quest. Once Smyrna has built all of the relevant infrastructure, we should build the remaining War Galleys for this quest - make sure we have 50g in hand for the Siphonarios though!

To be honest the Siphonarios isn't that good, but we have to have it just because it so cool!

Not convinced about this at all. Not only do we not need to give away any of our cities, but the Armenians will trade any tech that we might steal from them.
There is no SG rule against having vassals, unless we want to make one (but why?).

I agree, Armenia will be our little female dog anyways. Vassalising also costs maintenance.

So do we all agree that all espionage should be against the Abbasids?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

But Sevasteia is still OUR city at this particular moment, and Ankyra and that little city next to the cow and copper will flip to Rum, so I don't see that we evaded the flip at all. Think of the Armenians just "borrowing" that city (and helping us out with our maintenance and science) until we reconquer it from the Rum.

I usually have the Armenians research crucible steel for me (they will not trade this away) and I steal it from them. They also won't trade away religious techs unless the wonders are built (and I usually steal them from them too).

(If it were up to me I would give away Trapezius too--very poor production. I once had a volcano there destroy my harbor and blacksmith--ouch!)

 

[AnotherPacifist]

And I kid you not, here's the historical precedent for Sebasteia (Sivas)given away:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sevasteia

The Armenian king of Vaspurakan, Hovhannes Senekerim, exchanged his lands to the Byzantine emperor Basil II in 1021 A.D. and migrated to Sivas with 14.000 of his nobles and people and became a vassal of the Byzantines,[2] until the city was conquered by the Turkmen Danishmend dynasty (1155–1192) after the Battle of Manzikert in 1071.

We can found a city in Vaspurakan to complete the symbolism, if you want.