t127 science write up GS/deity/standard

[DanQuayle]

The old city-state bonus tiers (like +2 culture in capital with 1 envoy) makes the biggest difference for a quick PP.
I didn't watch the video, but if he also sells free relics, he certainly has the gold to rush buy a lot of monuments.

 

[Minou]

@ATEX, is that map really a 36 tech shot to Offworld? As I understand it you can only narrow down Smart Materials to one of two slots, but what if Offworld Mission is on of those side branches and requires more pre-reqs? I just tried this and saw that the Smart Material tech might either be 41 techs or 61 techs from the start. That's already a huge variation (though maybe of the 20 difference are going to be needed for Nanotechnology anyway) on top of which Offworld Mission must be one of the remaining techs and so could be at 41, 60, or 68 I believe.

 

[ATEX]

@ATEX, is that map really a 36 tech shot to Offworld? As I understand it you can only narrow down Smart Materials to one of two slots, but what if Offworld Mission is on of those side branches and requires more pre-reqs? I just tried this and saw that the Smart Material tech might either be 41 techs or 61 techs from the start. That's already a huge variation (though maybe of the 20 difference are going to be needed for Nanotechnology anyway) on top of which Offworld Mission must be one of the remaining techs and so could be at 41, 60, or 68 I believe.

Well no not really. This was without taking any considerations. As you need to build a spaceport also, and have smart materials. 58 should be the fastest path excluding Babylon.

Yeah that game is super interesting, I really wish I could follow it more and figure out exactly what’s going on. Like I can’t tell how the t29 poli Phil happens at all, I’ve only been able to get it in the low 30s with bm teddy and that’s with several culture breathtaking tiles right off the bat and hitting every insp

China in particular is really interesting too, especially how much they’re spamming the Great Wall. if that win is even slightly comparable to the current version of civ we’re playing (I wonder about the trade values and the city state boosts?) then we’re nowhere close to the floor for a science victory, ss/heroes games should be pushing sub 110.

the numbers are similar to my games around t100 (which is wild because I’m getting like 20% of my values from faith) but they’re ramping up much earlier. Makes me wonder how much the growth rate in the tundra is really hurting peter. I’ve been wondering for a while now if someone like Pedro might actually be better with jungle adjacency for that reason, you could get your campuses down much earlier and make up a lot of ground in the early tech tree but maybe the work ethic meta is wrong place to be?

Edit: I think it’s mostly the city states change accounting for the super early pp: I rewatched the really early game and it seems like he’s getting +6 total from 3x science city states and +4 from 2 culture, several huts popping 2x early population, a relic, and a free second scout, lot of envoys after that plus craftsmanship eureka. Build order is scout>settler with holy placed but not built, pantheon is religious settlements. Suz of nan madol on ~t22 bought with envoys from huts, relic flipped to the ai for ~250g and 15/t, mostly used for tile buys and builders

Suz of Kandy on ~t25, saving wonder discoveries for relic spam, t29 poli Phil. After holy site cap goes builder, one city starts a slinger other goes holy site with pyr planned. Pretty explosive early game, especially the science. I’m not sure how you’d fully replicate his numbers now that cs are weaker but I’m super excited to dig in a bit deeper and see what’s going on, would love to see China up at the top for science wins

I agree that he has a lot of advantages from cs, known map, loading, and relics, but still... The guy must have a lot of skills, so I think I will have to watch the videos to see how it is even possible.

 

[KKirrin]

Yeah I’m about halfway through it, it’s wild. Tons of builders and rapid expansion via chopping ancestral hall. I’m not sure how much is really reproducible now between the diplo and cs nerfs but there’s a ton of good stuff in there.

Already changing my early game a bit, think I need to chop considerably more, especially for those early settlers. Looks like one of the most explosive things is ramping chop value with culture then Magnus chopping settlers in a city with ancestral and as many woods as possible. He does like 3 settlers in one turn iirc. I do have a hard time picturing a more perfect map but it’s a wildly impressive, intricate game, planning aside. And a lot of stuff will translate really well to the Current meta regardless, even on someone like peter

 

[walkerjks]

Works for cultural win as well... The cities on the tundra/good stuff boundary will get to size 4 easily enough and have theater squares second. Some of the tundra only cities will be hopeless for anything other than faith generation post-expansion (and an old gold obelisk). Oh, unless La Venta is in the game (and you can pick force that now!), in which case, the land is perfect for colossal head spam.

The big problem is now early culture to get to PP. With the secret society governor changes, I suspect Pingala + culture is a better start than Magnus + provision (switch to Magnus + Provision when the ancestral hall is finished). You just have to give up that extra population to get your 1st (and possibly 2nd) settler. If you happen to get Anansi early, all your culture issues are solved.

The game I am playing now, I did get Anansi (built around turn 25), but didn't get a voidsingers invite until turn 52. I was starting to sweat that as it completely ruins the strategy (whether science or culture). I wanted Himiko as a 2nd hero, but haven't discovered her. Settled for the twins for an insta-army.

 

[walkerjks]

Under the new secret society governor rules, fast PP becomes a bit of a chore. Heroes (early Anansi, in particular) can lead to very fast PP, but that's a roll of the dice (last game, Anansi was my very last hero discovered at turn 70). But even with delayed PP (I think I got ancestral hall on turn 52), the snowballing quickly catches you up. City-state picking shaves a lot of turns off, whether going for science or culture.

Anyway, turn 138 deity culture win on a different map with regular # of AIs. I have to figure out the right balance of going all-in on culture to get faster rock bands (game is over with a rock band swarm) or all-in on science to get faster flight (to activate tourism from colossal head and maoi spam). This game was all-in on theaters (I built lavras, theaters, government, and diplomatic and no other districts), though at the end most of the tourism was from improvement spam. I suspect optimal is to mix 2 or 3 campuses in there, both for the direct science boost and the inspiration/eurekas that will result.

 

[EscapedGoat]

Yeah I’m about halfway through it, it’s wild. Tons of builders and rapid expansion via chopping ancestral hall. I’m not sure how much is really reproducible now between the diplo and cs nerfs but there’s a ton of good stuff in there.

Already changing my early game a bit, think I need to chop considerably more, especially for those early settlers. Looks like one of the most explosive things is ramping chop value with culture then Magnus chopping settlers in a city with ancestral and as many woods as possible. He does like 3 settlers in one turn iirc. I do have a hard time picturing a more perfect map but it’s a wildly impressive, intricate game, planning aside. And a lot of stuff will translate really well to the Current meta regardless, even on someone like peter

Reflecting a bit on the linked game, the start is reproducable under today’s rule set as you are basically only losing a couple of culture from the bigger CS bonuses which could be made up for by a monument or something. Of course, he is lucky with huts here and is even save scumming a bit. Notice also how OP it is to find an early relic irr they can sell for 35g/turn and with Kandy giving you a new one on every natural wonder discovery selling these are extremely OP.

In terms of China, the big gain is the wonder rushing without spending forests which leaves said forests choppable for settlers, also the Great Wall is actually pretty crazy for culture and gold. The yields from a GW tile are comparable to many natural wonders, definitely a bit underrated.

I notice also he is gambling with low military which here pays off, won’t work in all games. Also something new to me is that he settles relatively far away (2nd ring) with his first settlers, and in good chop areas, this seems smart for a chop heavy game as you get more choppable tiles and are in a better position for spamming settlers later (less walking for the future settlers).

I have a feeling work ethic Peter could do similarly, notice he goes holy site first cities, but you cannot do the free settler pantheon with Peter I guess, so that might slow Down the start a bit. Culture from great works and the voidsingers should compensate for lack of GW improvement.

 

[ATEX]

Reflecting a bit on the linked game, the start is reproducable under today’s rule set as you are basically only losing a couple of culture from the bigger CS bonuses which could be made up for by a monument or something. Of course, he is lucky with huts here and is even save scumming a bit. Notice also how OP it is to find an early relic irr they can sell for 35g/turn and with Kandy giving you a new one on every natural wonder discovery selling these are extremely OP.

In terms of China, the big gain is the wonder rushing without spending forests which leaves said forests choppable for settlers, also the Great Wall is actually pretty crazy for culture and gold. The yields from a GW tile are comparable to many natural wonders, definitely a bit underrated.

I notice also he is gambling with low military which here pays off, won’t work in all games. Also something new to me is that he settles relatively far away (2nd ring) with his first settlers, and in good chop areas, this seems smart for a chop heavy game as you get more choppable tiles and are in a better position for spamming settlers later (less walking for the future settlers).

I have a feeling work ethic Peter could do similarly, notice he goes holy site first cities, but you cannot do the free settler pantheon with Peter I guess, so that might slow Down the start a bit. Culture from great works and the voidsingers should compensate for lack of GW improvement.

I think it will be quite hard to recreate this game. A lot of his economy is built around selling diplo favour as well, and that early boosts he is getting from CSs is so early, that its not really easy to make it up in any way. However I agree with you that the lesson to learn from this game is how important planning magnus is, and how well it can be done. I think Peter also can be very fast, but this fast is hard to imagine.

 

[EscapedGoat]

I think it will be quite hard to recreate this game. A lot of his economy is built around selling diplo favour as well, and that early boosts he is getting from CSs is so early, that its not really easy to make it up in any way. However I agree with you that the lesson to learn from this game is how important planning magnus is, and how well it can be done. I think Peter also can be very fast, but this fast is hard to imagine.

Sure, it’s not 100% recreatable. For arguments sake though, assume you are playing China. Nothing has changed there. He got 2 early culture CS, this would require 2 bonus culture from other sources to make up loss, f.ex a monument or natural wonder tile? He got an early relic. This is still possible, got one on turn 3 yesterday. He missed some Eurekas I think. This will save culture. Nan Madol which he utilized for 4 early culture is still in the game. City state picker lets you include whatever city states you want. SS mode would let you suzerain Kandy or Nan Madol on turn 6-7 theoretically with Amani.

as for selling diplo favor, yes it was nerfed, but Wilfred, Kristina and Teddy Roosevelt still buy diplo favor at reasonable rates in my experience (could also be other leaders). Just have them in your game. Also, you can somewhat abuse this by buying cheap diplo favor from those who do not favor it to sell dearly to these other diplo leaders (just make sure Kristina & co don’t buy directly from those who sell cheap, I.e vacuum the market every turn). Also, rather a lot of his gpt and cash deals in this game came from selling the early 2 relics, not pure diplo favor.

also, noticed the player in the vid while he got lots of good hut results, did not get a builder for example. Getting just one hut builder would compensate for rushing a monument.

So yes, it’s not 1:1 reproducible but should be possible to get quite close under the right circumstances. Of course, this again shows how much “luck” or aligning all the factors to create a “perfect storm” scenario is required for the fastest wins, not to mention the tech tree.

 

[KKirrin]

I tend to agree with atex here—it’s hard to overstate the power of getting two free monuments worth of culture early. You could def just build the second but that’s opportunity cost and free stuff in the early game is basically a force multiplier. You’re still losing the ~6 turns worth of culture while it’s building, and even if you pop a free builder you have to assume this game pops something good too with rng scumming

Arguably more impactful though is the 3 science states for 6 science, plus the rationalism nerf...so much harder to chop to 15. My guess is that in the current patch this is a mid 120s game which is doable with peter without ss in the current patch (my fastest is 129 though).

With ss i agree that peter is probably faster though with all else being equal. Agree on the diplo thing too- in the right game I think it’s still incredibly powerful, though losing Kristina giving like 20 in ancient v 9 she currently offers does hurt your early explosiveness

 

[Salamis]

I'm really enjoying following this thread, thank you to all! I wonder if Vietnam might be a decent candidate for a fast Science Victory. I doubt it can better Peter but does have some useful ingredients:

- Extra Culture generation: Through UI and buildings on woods. Buildings on woods won't contribute all that much but the UI can.
- Campus Adjacency: The requirement of 4+ adjacency for Rationalism's 50% bonus makes campus placement far trickier than before. Vietnam has two boosts to this: 1) The UI as adjacency fodder because it's half-price and doesn't require population. 2) Rainforest not being removed when a speciality district is placed on them. Think of a diamond with a geothermal fissure at the top and three rainforests in the triangle below. Putting a triangle of campuses on those rainforests will give two of those campuses the adjacency of 4. Every other civ (except Japan) would only get 3. This example is certainly a best case scenario but the ability will be helpful.
- Faith economy: Sacred Path (districts on rainforests adjacent to Holy Sites) or Earth Goddess (planting woods early as well as woods being retained) pantheons could give greater benefits to Vietnam than to most other civs.

I get the feeling that Vietnam is a civ that will require more planning than most to fully leverage the abilities. Compact city building, lots of builders for chopping and replanting, getting to Medieval Faires quickly will probably all be necessary. I'm looking forward to playing this out!

 

[Enfant_Sauvage]

They really want us to play tall. The change of rationalism, the adjacency bonus of Entertainment Complexes, the new non-specialty district, Vietnam. I like this kind of gameplay : focus on maybe less cities but biggest cities than usual. I doubt that it will be faster than Peter or the other monsters for fast SV. Bull Moose Teddy with the new non-specialty district is even better than before. He may be the one to look for in the new patch.

 

[walkerjks]

Played around with alternatives to Russia (Mali and desert, Pedro and jungle, Menelik and whatever he starts with) and Russia is still so much better mostly due to the reduced cost holy sites and partially due to availability of tundra and lack of competition for the same tundra on certain map types. Pedro comes close, but he's going to run out of jungle before Peter runs out of tundra (at least on highlands or inner sea maps).

Menelik is great if you want to follow this basic strategy without religion. Menelik can generate a ton of faith pretty early with no religion at all. And that gets an extra 15% boost to culture and tourism from turn 1 beyond what voidsingers provides at turn 85ish... but Peter is still better. Menelik can get 15 cities at turn 100 (rather than 30) without any religion with 35% of the faith being converted to science and culture (rather than 20%), but it's still not really good enough. Peter is a beast under current rules.