Teach me to whip

[WCH]

When I was new to the game, I glanced at slavery, was unimpressed, and never adopted it. On the forums, though, people talk about whipping out all sorts of things as an important part of their strategy. It sounds nice in principle, but I'm enough of a city perfectionist that the anger it produces scares me into avoiding it. Still, I know that sometimes it's justified... what I can't figure out is when, and my hesitance just leads me to revert back to not doing it at all.

So, please, teach me how to whip properly. Do you do it when your production is already mostly complete? If so, how complete? What is a good time to whip? What is a bad time to whip?

 

[oranje willem]

When I was new to the game, I glanced at slavery, was unimpressed, and never adopted it. On the forums, though, people talk about whipping out all sorts of things as an important part of their strategy. It sounds nice in principle, but I'm enough of a city perfectionist that the anger it produces scares me into avoiding it. Still, I know that sometimes it's justified... what I can't figure out is when, and my hesitance just leads me to revert back to not doing it at all.

So, please, teach me how to whip properly. Do you do it when your production is already mostly complete? If so, how complete? What is a good time to whip? What is a bad time to whip?

A good time to whip is:
-When a city is working unimproved tile(s)
-When a city has a couple of unhappy citizens, it may seem like a paradox, but it's better to get some free hammers than paying maintenance for nothing (just prevent growth after sacrificing until you get some more happiness)
-When you have more than enough happiness to make up for the unhappiness it generates
-When you need to get a critical building, especially in a low production city. A good example are universities, I will sacrifice up to 5 citizens in a low hammer city to get Oxford out earlier, usually they grow back to normal size fairly quickly anyway
-Whipping 1 pop every 10 turns gives you a nice production bonus in any city if you have 1 more happiness than population, it's a lot of production and in general you regrow quick

A bad time to whip is:
-In a very low food city
-If it makes you stop working a great tile for a long time (generally in a very low food city)
-When you just whipped in that city and happiness is a problem (unless it's very critical, for example an extra defender or walls if that city is under attack)

 

[WCH]

How does the calculation of how much pop is sacrificed work? The price has always seemed steep when I've looked... and is it one angry face per sacrificed population point?

 

[NihilZero]

There is a nice guide on whipping here:

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/whip.php

 

[lilnev]

Always put in one turn of production before whipping (otherwise there's a major penalty).

Generally don't whip Wonders (again a penalty), although you can whip something else and let the overflow apply to the Wonder. If you think you're in a race for a key Wonder, though, you may have to break this rule.

Usually don't whip more often than once per 10 turns (normal speed). The exception is producing an army, where overwhelming force is the doctrine, and you can worry about recovering after you've won decisively. Other exceptions: you're about to switch out of Slavery; recently conquered cities with way too many unhappy people.

Almost never whip before you have a Granary, though sometimes a monument or workboat will be an exception.

Generally don't whip when you're far below your happy-cap -- grow onto more tiles instead. The exceptions are whipping a culture source (e.g. monument) and granary, workboats, and sometimes a lighthouse if you're working seafood (I usually prefer to chop out these early essentials if possible, but whipping is acceptable if trees are scarce). If a city has a very large food surplus, such that it can whip every 10 turns and still grow quickly, then I may start whipping well below the happy-cap to get the most out of unhappiness wearing off.

Generally whip for two or three pop at a time. This allows you to convert more food into hammers for the same happiness hit as a single pop. Whipping for four works in a city with a strong food surplus, but in a more "typical" city (e.g. +3 or +4F) it will take you too far below your happy cap, meaning you aren't working as many tiles as you could be for a sustained period. Whipping for more than four is very rare, generally just Wonders that I'm afraid I'll be beaten to.

Generally don't whip if a city is food-limited rather than happiness-limited. Instead, grow onto your best set of tiles and let it be.

 

[Meteora]

I'm not sure why, but whenever I whip cities with unhappy people, my GPT goes up. Could be a bug or something, but I've been merrily whipping away because of that.

Whipping is great if your cities can regrow quickly. But its a disastrous idea for cities with poor food tiles.

 

[oranje willem]

I'm not sure why, but whenever I whip cities with unhappy people, my GPT goes up. Could be a bug or something, but I've been merrily whipping away because of that.

I believe the more population you have the more you pay for civics, another reason it's better to whip than to work unimproved tiles or having unhappy citizens.

 

[lymond]

I believe the more population you have the more you pay for civics, another reason it's better to whip than to work unimproved tiles or having unhappy citizens.

^^^^this

As to your question, whether whip 1 citizen or 10 citizens it only 1 unhappy.

 

[AbsoluteZero]

I always go to war early ( around 1500 bc ) and I whip like a slave driver

The is nothing to worry about if your in monarchy and you have a few happiness resources.

Just don't whip in your developed cities too often. There are some cities where you may be working important tiles, and whipping would be counter-productive.

If I just conquered some cities from an enemy then I whip like hell in the new cities to get up some culture buildings and maybe even some troops ( like catapults ). Hell, I might not even keep them, so might as well get something from them.

Also if you are in monarchy you can whip troops and garrison them in the same town, then you suffer no penalty, until of course, you march them into battle


Whipping is one key tool to keeping up or even exceeding the computer in troops on the higher levels. Get together an army, conquer some towns, then once those towns come online you can whip more troops from them ( usually I whip catapults ), then go on to conquer more towns. I've bested the computer many times on Immortal with early rushes this way, later going on to win the game because of my land advantage.

 

[The Rook]

How does the calculation of how much pop is sacrificed work? The price has always seemed steep when I've looked... and is it one angry face per sacrificed population point?

30 base hammers per pop at normal speed (+ multipliers). 1 unhappiness per whip (not per pop!). Whipping is far more efficient with a granary. If you have a city that has an abundance of food/happiness, and is capable of growing one pop per turn, then you are potentially producing 30 base hammers EVERY turn. The whip can be very useful for surges of production, pre-Industrial warfare for example. Just think how many cuirassiers half-a-dozen size 10 cities could produce with the whip, and how quickly they would be able to do it. Add forges, HE, etc and the returns get even better. Who cares about the temporary unhappiness if you can double your empire in a few turns?

Spiritual has nice synergy with a food intensive economy in the sense that you can easily switch to Caste/Pacifism at times that you don't require boosts of growth or production, then OR/Theo when you want a production surge.

 

[goodolarchie]

The main things to learn are when not to whip. In all other circumstances you should whip.

-After freshly switching production. There is a stiff penalty (usually an extra population) that should only get exacted in an emergency (like a defensive unit).

-In a low food, high hammer city. In the case of "green hill mines" type cities, it's sometimes better to just work another mine/wmill/workshop when your food surplus is low (+1/2). These cities typically hit their good-production-tile limit of 14-17 and max out.

-Whipping an important early/mid cottage city. This is tough, but one of the crucial aspects of a CE is working the tiles relentlessly. There are exceptions of course, if hammers aren't available (i.e.granary). These cities will usually be your highest early-pop cities since you're trying to reach maximum cottage capacity, so whipping out of range is still good.

-When you need Caste System. This is kind of a sideliner but people seem to forget how good it can be to switch to caste and crank out a quick great merchant/scientist, esp. during golden age.

-There are others of course, I'm just naming a few that were in my head at this hour.

 

[Wreck]

It may help to think about whipping as a complicated form of mining. You like mines, right? Well, a mine allows direct production of hammers. Whipping allows indirect production of hammers, from food via population. The downsides of whipping are the necessary micromanagement, and that it is not incredibly efficient for wonders. The upsides, though:

• you can get food in many cities where you cannot get hammers, especially before workshops become efficient
• given a granary and happiness, the effective hammer production rate is better for farms than mines
• whipping is fast, requiring just 2 turns, allowing flexibility of production, i.e. defensive military unit whips, or building/unit whips immediately upon discovery of a tech
• given happiness, whipping allows the stockpiling of production in the form of pop

There is a page on whipping at the civ4 wiki: http://civ4.wikia.com/wiki/Whipping

 

[iggymnrr]

Good tips from all. Lately I've been chop/whipping granaries in pop 2 cities. It does work well for me but helps to have something to do after the granary.

 

[jabberwalkee_]

Also Hereditary Rule effectively nulls the unhappiness.

You should play a game where you stay in slavery forever and whip stuff often. I did that after feeling pretty much the same as you. It made me raelise just how often slavery can be useful.

Also. granaries. Really. They double the effectiveness of repeated whipping.

 

[mrdoe]

Generally don't whip Wonders (again a penalty), although you can whip something else and let the overflow apply to the Wonder. If you think you're in a race for a key Wonder, though, you may have to break this rule.

Can anyone explain this penalty to me? If you are industrious, is it more advisable to whip wonders?

 

[Wreck]

The penalty is you get only 20/pop, vs 30/pop for most stuff. These are "base hammers", that is, hammers before multiplication by any multipliers you've got. So yes, being industrious means that you'll get an extra 10/pop, which should indeed make you more interested in whipping wonders.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

The penalty is you get only 20/pop, vs 30/pop for most stuff. These are "base hammers"

Are you sure about that? I don't remember either way - it's been a long time since I looked at the mechanics here.

So yes, being industrious means that you'll get an extra 10/pop, which should indeed make you more interested in whipping wonders.

I'm pretty sure that conclusion is wrong.

Whipping is really about food converted to base hammers; where Industrious is about a bonus applied to base hammers. The same bonus is applied to base hammers earned the old fashioned way. So the first order concern is the same - do I get a better price for my base hammers by whipping or by working production tiles?

Where I think Industrious may make a difference is in timing - because of the discount, you have the opportunity to whip a few turns earlier than you would otherwise, which may be valuable.

(Alternatively, you can whip at "the same time" but losing fewer population to do it. Since the hammer/food price gets better as you whip more people, I'm not sure this is a win, but there are other considerations beyond the price.)

So you might do it to win a race, or because you are worried that in the intervening turns you'll lose control of a doubler resource. I don't think that it would ever math out to take the penalty just to have the wonder benefits a few turns earlier.


Of course, industrious or not, you might decide to whip some wonders anyway - National Epic in Farmville leaps to mind.

 

[kossin]

The whipping penalty on Wonders is 50% (30 is converted to 15).

Industrious gets the 50% added after the penalty so...

(Base pop hammers/2)*1.5

i.e. 22 hammers on Normal

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

The whipping penalty on Wonders is 50% (30 is converted to 15).

Um, 30 to 15 is 100%. Really. Hooray for denominator math.

I nitpick this because (as is pointed out in the war academy), for some of the wonders the penalty is (30 converted to 20) 50%.

 

[kossin]

Yes of course... it only depends if you're using it as denominator or multiplying by 0.5