Tech popups

[frekk]

One thing that I really, really miss from early editions of the game is the way the tech popup was done. When you got a new tech in civ1 or 2, the historical entry was alot more prominent. I find I never even read the entry anymore, tucked as it is into a little box on the lower left.

This is what you used to get:

Yes, there were a couple more clicks involved, and I wouldn't do it exactly the same (there is no need for the "English wise men have discovered ... " screen announcing a new tech, everything should fit on a single screen) but I just wish the spirit and intent behind the way it was done would make a reappearance.

The game statistics are now hugely prominent, although they don't really need even a quarter of the space they have, while the historic text (the 'immersive' part) is shoved into some little box at the bottom corner.

Perhaps I'm just being a little nitpicky, but I find it detracts quite a bit from the experience, and reflects poorly on the mindframe of the developers.

Not a really big deal, but in the faint hope that this is rectified, I thought I'd mention it.

 

[CTH]

I think that pop-ups in they way that they pop-up when a tech is done is gone in ciV, as far as I understand it, the more "streamlined" interface just gives you a little baloon on the side of the screen and let you klick in it when you feel like it. The details are a little bit fuzzy. Now that doesnt really contridict what you are suggesting but it felt like a good thing to mention here anyway

And I agree with you, more historical references is allways good! Perhaps even some special texts depending on what civ you are, for example more talk about chariots if you egypt and so on.

 

[frekk]

Yeah I guess "popup" is a bit inaccurate; I just mean the screen where your new tech is announced, whether it's a popup or otherwise. I just wish that the historic text was more in-your-face rather than crammed into the footlocker. It should be the most prominent and central element of the new tech screen ... there was more immersion in having it more prominent and more likely to be read.

 

[Ahriman]

I disagree. I know the history already, I don't need to keep having it thrust in my face taking up screen space and making it more difficult to hunt for the gameplay impacts that I actually need to know about. When I research a new tech, I want to see just its impacts on gameplay, and I'll go search through the civilopedia for history stuff if I get bored and want to explore more.

Just my preference.

 

[Shurdus]

I click it away and can savely say that I will not ever read any single piece of 'historic flavor items' no matter how much they stuff it in my face. If I want a history lesson I will talk to my friends who majored in history. When playing a game I want the game to keep going. I do not want to be distracted by any of this nonsense.

Cramming texts like these into the pedia is fine by me, but I do not understand the 'immersion breaking' emotions at all. That is, when I am presented with random nonsense on my screen I would feel annoyed rather than more immersed.

 

[grant2004]

I sometimes read historical information, but I only do it once for each topic, so I don't really need it as the central item of the tech popup. I really liked the little quotes associated with each tech in Civ IV I thought those were a consistently entertaining form of flavor, plus they picked an awesome narrator.

 

[frekk]

I know the history already

Me too. I just like a bit of literary descriptiveness ... not everything can be represented with graphics. Like in the above - well there's nothing I don't know there, but instead of just thinking "Ok, got the wheel, now I need to research Fishing and get that lighthouse", the passage makes me think about things that aren't in the game at all - like my citizens being freed from having to carry heavy loads on their backs, my warriors watching and thinking about a new device of war, and so on.

And things were different 20 years ago when I was a new player. Alot of that stuff was new, when I was playing Civ1, and it got me interested in learning more. I like to think that people new to the game can get the same things from it I did - more than just a game. As a vehicle of curiousity it can't really last, of course, but it's nice to think others will be enjoying it in the same manner even if it's no longer that to oneself.

I don't need to keep having it thrust in my face taking up screen space and making it more difficult to hunt for the gameplay impacts that I actually need to know about.

Well, the new tech box is mostly blank space - at least in civ4. Might as well use it for something. It's not like you'd really have to hunt for anything.

When I research a new tech, I want to see just its impacts on gameplay

Too gamist for me ... I don't like to be constantly reminded that I'm playing a game.

 

[frekk]

I click it away and can savely say that I will not ever read any single piece of 'historic flavor items' no matter how much they stuff it in my face.

Well, then it can't matter much to you, right? There's already a historic blurb on the new tech screen, and you'll always be able to just click it away.

Cramming texts like these into the pedia is fine by me, but I do not understand the 'immersion breaking' emotions at all.

It's not exactly that minimizing the historic text breaks immersion, though being confronted by game mechanics rather than descriptive writing certainly does. Static leaderheads don't break immersion either, but animated is nice. I've been playing hex and chits for decades (when I can find someone to play with, anyway) and letting my imagination do most of the work, so I don't need much in the way of immersion - but there is always room for improvement.

Plus, well, c'mon admit it - you click through the screens not just because the descriptive text doesn't interest you, but because you don't need to see the mechanics most of the time either - you've probably memorized most of them. I know I don't need to see them so prominently; if I did need to focus on exact mechanics, I already looked at them when I was choosing what to research.

 

[Ahriman]

Well, the new tech box is mostly blank space - at least in civ4. Might as well use it for something.

My feeling is that blank space can be used to draw attention to the areas that aren't blank.

Blank spank is not useless.

If you fill up a space with text, then it is more difficult to focus on the bits that actually matter.

 

[frekk]

My feeling is that blank space can be used to draw attention to the areas that aren't blank.

Blank spank is not useless.

If you fill up a space with text, then it is more difficult to focus on the bits that actually matter.

The way it's presently organized isn't in a way that the blank space draws attention to anything. Blank space can be used to draw attention, if you have things centered in the blank space for instance. But this isn't like that:

It's just a bunch of boxes piled together, with everything mostly left-aligned inside, except at the top.

And after being spoiled by earlier editions, "Can build a road" seems awfully mechanical and uninspired.

The Aesop bit is nice, but a bit short (and unoriginal, too).

 

[Ahriman]

Honestly, I think that screenshot demonstrates why the Civ4 system is great. A simple, uncluttered UI screen, where you can immediately and easily see everything you need to know about the tech, and with included hyperlinks if you need to know more about any of those.

The eye *is* immediately drawn to the relevant impacts, because of the empty space around them.

I forget if the tech icon itself (left of the quote) links to the Civilopedia of the tech or not. If it doesn't, I'd be fine with that added.

 

[frekk]

The eye *is* immediately drawn to the relevant impacts, because of the empty space around them.

Thing is, practically none of that stuff is relevant after the first few games. "Can build a road?" The wheel? Really? D'oh! Forgot again!

Even in the very first game, it's not really very useful; generally you've already looked at that stuff when you were choosing the tech. Really the only part that's useful is what techs it allows, and that's not even that useful, since you'll get a list of what you can research as soon as you close it. It's pretty much all redundant.

But alot of people seem to like that stuff, so maybe a nice compromise would be to have the ability to swap back and forth between a gamist screen that shows stats and mechanics, and something less utilitarian and more literary and descriptive.

 

[Ahriman]

I think you're being unreasonable by looking only at the Wheel tech, which is very simple.

Can you remember offhand the exact benefits offhand of Refining, Combustion, Liberalism, Constitution, Communism, Scientific Method and Philosophy?

Its not always easy to remember every tech benefit (which tech reveals oil, vs lets you actually build the well improvement?, which combination of techs to I need to get macemen, longbowmen or crossbowmen?). Casual players don't have an encyclopediac knowledge of all the game benefits.

The main purpose of the tech popup screen is to remind you of those benefits, not to give a history lesson.

Besides, doesn't your "after the first few games" issue apply even more so to fluff text like history?

so maybe a nice compromise would be to have the ability to swap back and forth between a gamist screen that shows stats and mechanics, and something more literary and descriptive.

As long as the default is just the gameplay impacts, I'd be fine with pushing a button on the screen that takes you to the flavor benefits.

 

[Chalks]

Thing is, practically none of that stuff is relevant after the first few games. "Can build a road?" The wheel? Really? D'oh! Forgot again!

I don't think removing information that may be useful for first time players to accommodate some sort of phobia of repetition that veteran players may feel makes very much sense.

 

[Shurdus]

Can you remember offhand the exact benefits offhand of Refining, Combustion, Liberalism, Constitution, Communism, Scientific Method and Philosophy?

All except refining. And I do not even use tech splashed, I edited them out in the .ini so that techs are now only announced. (Like 'You have discovered the wheel!')

I think that is the way it should be or I will mod it so that none of the tech announcements get in my face, at least after maybe one or two playthroughs.

Its not always easy to remember every tech benefit (which tech reveals oil, vs lets you actually build the well improvement?, which combination of techs to I need to get macemen, longbowmen or crossbowmen?). Casual players don't have an encyclopediac knowledge of all the game benefits.

Yet you name such easy examples. Macemen need iron, (iron working) and machinery + civil service. Longbowmen need archery and feudalism, crossbowmen need iron (unsure there, it is rare that one makes these units on normal speed) and machinery + archery.

Do you people veen conciously see these popups? If I let it on, all I ever spot is the button where I can close the window because that one I press asap. I do not even glance over anything ever.

 

[frekk]

I don't think removing information that may be useful for first time players to accommodate some sort of phobia of repetition that veteran players may feel makes very much sense.

I didn't suggest removing it. I only suggested that it didn't need an entire screen to show 4 or 5 icons and maybe 20 words of text. It could be more comprehensive (and therefore more at-a-glance if you did happen to need it), and something more useful done with the rest of the space. Although, it's not a bad idea to get rid of it. It's not really useful to find out what a tech does when you receive it. There's not alot of information involved; it could easily be contained in a mouseover of the techs during tech selection, which would be a far more useful spot to be able to easily see what the techs do.

I like to think that civ is getting people interested in history; perhaps not me or you today, but that was the experience I first had with civ, and it's one I think civ should aim to achieve with new players.

If I let it on, all I ever spot is the button where I can close the window because that one I press asap. I do not even glance over anything ever.

Yep, same here.

If I don't know what a tech does, the popup is not the time to find out. If I need to check, I do it in the Science Advisor screen in order to determine my next tech. Never the popup; don't see what good it does at that point. Whatever the tech does, you will find out next time you do a build (or move a worker or whatever), and it doesn't help you figure out what you're beelining for.

In fact, if it's not going to have any descriptive writing or some other sort of function, I'd just suggest removing it altogether. With the new way a tech discovery is now being announced (a flashing button) it's not really necessary anymore.

 

[Ahriman]

I didn't suggest removing it.

But you suggested adding other data, which would make this info (slightly) harder to find.

If I let it on, all I ever spot is the button where I can close the window because that one I press asap. I do not even glance over anything ever.

Yep, same here.

So why do you want to add historic information?

The argument "the information gets boring once I know it" is not an argument for adding historic info to the screen.

And the screen is designed to appeal to beginners and casual players, not people who sit around posting on CivFanatics.

This is all a very minor issue, but I don't really see any reason for change. This is one aspect of Civ4 UI that is pretty good.

I could see though having "event notifications" like those in the Total War games. You get a bunch of event notification icons on the side of the screen (new tech researched, city X finished building, Wonder completed, etc, which you can open or ignore as you will. If you don't want to see the tech screen, you just don't open the message.

 

[Chinese American]

What if the prose was more directly related to the game to explain the choices that the devs made. the first post with the wheel is a good example. it mentions chariot and engineering. in civ 4 you might replace engineering and mention pottery and road.

 

[frekk]

The argument "the information gets boring once I know it" is not an argument for adding historic info to the screen.

Sure it is. Not all information is equal fuel for the imagination. "Can build road" just doesn't do what "One of the five great simple machines, the wheel (etc etc)" does.

And the screen is designed to appeal to beginners and casual players, not people who sit around posting on CivFanatics.

Civfanatics was not around when civ1 was released and no one was a veteran of the series, yet it gained a huge following of neophyte players very rapidly, using the screens shown above.

 

[Ahriman]

Sure it is

I'm sorry, but this just makes no sense. You don't want to look at the gameplay info because you know it already, but you're happen to "learn" about what the Wheel does over and over and over again?

Civfanatics was not around when civ1 was released and no one was a veteran of the series, yet it gained a huge following of neophyte players very rapidly, using the screens shown above.

So? Civ 1 was a great game.

It would have been an even better game if it had had a cleaner UI, like that of Civ4.

You're verging on some pretty dodgy logical ground there in terms of causality.

It wasn't the tech screen that made Civ1 great, it was the whole concept of the game.

Don't get me wrong, I like having historic info available in the game, and I'd be sad if they removed them completely. I just don't think you need to clutter up the main popup windows with them.