Tech Tree Discussion

[Vokarya]

Grand War and Military Tradition could probably be pushed back to the early 1700s (War of Spanish Succession), or at the latest to 1745 and the War of Austrian Succession. Other than that I like this, including the ones getting added to the Industrial Era.

The problems with pushing those two back are:

• The original BTS Civilopedia entry for Military Tradition says that its high point was during the Napoleonic era.
• The C2C Civilopedia entry for Grand War also says that it covers the French Revolution and Napoleonic Wars. I also have the Congress of Vienna wonder at Grand War, so I don't want to push it back too far.
• Pushing both of them back will leave the last column nearly empty. The only other tech there is Representative Democracy.

I'll post the map so I can show what I'm talking about.

 

[Vokarya]

Here is how I laid out the Renaissance in my new scheme. I haven't gone through and coded it yet (still working out the Silk Road), but I have a plan. With the reduced number of technologies in the Renaissance, I would like to give column x53 back to the Industrial Era and move some of the early Industrial techs backward.

|x42|x43|x44|x45|x46|x47|x48|x49|x50|x51|x52
y1||Leadership|Battlefield Medicine|Cavalry Tactics
y3|||Dueling|Team Sports|Naval Tactics|||||Emancipation
y5|Gunpowder|Matchlock||Flintlock|Explosives|Mine Warfare||Botany|||Representative Democracy
y7||Metallurgy|Naval Cannon||||Biology|Zoology|Economics|Replaceable Parts
y9|Humanism|Political Philosophy|Divine Right|Critical Thought|Social Contract|Enlightenment|Liberalism||Constitution|Nationalism
y11||Sikhism|Jurisprudence||Scientific Method|Chemistry|Geology|Archeology|||Military Tradition
y13|Astrolabe|Astronomy|Colonialism|Corporation|Patent Rights|Calculus|Physics||Rifling
y15|Printing Press||Navigation|Mercantilism|Stock Brokering|Microbiology|||Sextant||Grand War
y17|Oil Painting|Free Artistry
y19|||Weather Forecasting||||||Hot Air Balloon

If I pull Grand War and Military Tradition backwards, that will leave a nearly empty X52. I don't want to do that.

There are some concessions to prerequisites in this chart; Cavalry Tactics' prerequisites needed it to be pushed a little higher, as did Physics. I can't find appropriate prerequisites for Free Artistry, Weather Forecasting, Team Sports, Explosives, Geology, and Stock Brokering to push them to where they would be if I was following the scheme exactly.

 

[ls612]

<snip>

If I pull Grand War and Military Tradition backwards, that will leave a nearly empty X52. I don't want to do that.

There are some concessions to prerequisites in this chart; Cavalry Tactics' prerequisites needed it to be pushed a little higher, as did Physics. I can't find appropriate prerequisites for Free Artistry, Weather Forecasting, Team Sports, Explosives, Geology, and Stock Brokering to push them to where they would be if I was following the scheme exactly.

Do you have all of the XML done for this yet?

 

[Vokarya]

Do you have all of the XML done for this yet?

Not yet; it shouldn't take too long. I'm doing a spreadsheet that I can use as a checklist. I'm working right now on the Python code to create the Silk Road; it wasn't quite working in my first pass, so I'm building it up a piece at a time to figure out the difference between what I thought I programmed and what it's really doing.

Edit: We may also have to look at the consequences of moving things around. I think mostly it will be a matter of rebalancing unit strengths. Buildings can stay where they are.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Vokarya

Looks fine to me. How are things with the tech requirements though?

Also once in place we will have to adjust building and wonder prices based on their new locations. If you could help point out what building/wonders were changed I can help fix their prices.

 

[ls612]

@Vokarya

Looks fine to me. How are things with the tech requirements though?

Also once in place we will have to adjust building and wonder prices based on their new locations. If you could help point out what building/wonders were changed I can help fix their prices.

I don't think anything has moved far enough to where it would make a big difference. If it has (more than 3 X columns would be my lower limit) then changes are OK, otherwise if you don't want to don't bother, it won't make much of a difference.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I don't think anything has moved far enough to where it would make a big difference. If it has (more than 3 X columns would be my lower limit) then changes are OK, otherwise if you don't want to don't bother, it won't make much of a difference.

Not even the techs that moved to the Industrial Era?

 

[Vokarya]

@Vokarya

Looks fine to me. How are things with the tech requirements though?

Also once in place we will have to adjust building and wonder prices based on their new locations. If you could help point out what building/wonders were changed I can help fix their prices.

All the tech requirements are mapped out, and I made sure not to leave any techs behind. I will go through the XML tonight; I'm stuck on Silk Road because I don't know the right Python flag for the path to go through unexplored territory.

I'll also be paying attention to where I modify the column locations. I can create a list of what needs adjusting based on that.

 

[Vokarya]

Not even the techs that moved to the Industrial Era?

Probably. Actually, I forgot about the Industrial techs. I'll work on that too.

 

[ls612]

Not even the techs that moved to the Industrial Era?

Yes, those would be the exceptions. But most weren't moved too far, so you don't need to mess with those.

 

[Vokarya]

Here it is: the redone Renaissance Era. I'll be copying this to the SVN very shortly.

View attachment 337626

Here is the list of what it looks like with all my changes. I marked prerequisites that I removed with a *. Parenthetical prerequisites are OR prerequisites, but I made sure to include at least one mandatory "leads to" for each tech except Sikhism.

Spoiler :

Tech X-Location Y-Location Cost Prerequisites Deleted Prerequisites Leads To
Astrolabe X42 Y13 1600 Compass + Optics Astronomy Astronomy
Printing Press X42 Y15 1600 Education + Invention Scientific Method
Oil Painting X42 Y17 1600 Education + Perspective Free Artistry
Gunpowder X42 Y5 1600 Education + Invention Leadership, Matchlock, Metallurgy
Humanism X42 Y9 1600 Education Political Philosophy, Printing Press Free Artistry, Political Philosophy, Sikhism, Team Sports
Leadership X43 Y1 1800 Chivalry + Gunpowder Divine Right Battlefield Medicine, Cavalry Tactics, Colonialism, Dueling
Matchlock X43 Y5 1800 Clockworks + Gunpowder Battlefield Medicine, Cavalry Tactics, Flintlock, Naval Cannon
Metallurgy X43 Y7 1800 Armor Crafting + Gunpowder Chemistry, Flintlock, Naval Cannon
Political Philosophy X43 Y9 1800 Banking + Humanism + Parliaments Education* Divine Right, Jurisprudence
Sikhism X43 Y11 1800 Hinduism + Humanism + Islam Critical Thought
Astronomy X43 Y13 1800 Algebra + Astrolabe + Astrology Education*, Optics* Colonialism, Critical Thought, Navigation, Weather Forecasting
Free Artistry X43 Y17 1800 Acoustics + Humanism + Oil Painting Divine Right Romanticism
Battlefield Medicine X44 Y1 2000 Anatomy + Leadership + Matchlock Chemistry, Nationalism Microbiology
Dueling X44 Y3 2000 Leadership + Martial Arts + Tournaments Flintlock, Team Sports
Cavalry Tactics X44 Y5 2000 Leadership + Matchlock + Mounted Archery Chivalry* Military Tradition
Naval Cannon X44 Y7 2000 Metallurgy Naval Tactics
Divine Right X44 Y9 2000 Fundamentalism + Papacy + Political Philosophy Gunpowder Mercantilism
Jurisprudence X44 Y11 2000 Political Philosophy Divine Right Corporation, Social Contract
Colonialism X44 Y13 2000 Astronomy + Leadership Mercantilism, Sextant Corporation, Mercantilism
Navigation X44 Y15 2000 Astronomy + Cartography Astrolabe Mercantilism, Naval Tactics
Weather Forecasting X44 Y19 2000 Astronomy + Cartography + Weather Lore Hot Air Balloon, Sextant
Team Sports X45 Y3 2200 Dueling + Humanism Military Science
Flintlock X45 Y5 2200 Dueling + Matchlock + Metallurgy Chemistry, Leadership* Explosives, Naval Tactics
Critical Thought X45 Y9 2200 Astronomy + Clockworks + Divine Right Scientific Method, Social Contract
Corporation X45 Y13 2200 Colonialism + Jurisprudence Constitution, Economics Patent Rights, Stock Brokering
Mercantilism X45 Y15 2200 Colonialism + Divine Right + Navigation Economics, Stock Brokering
Naval Tactics X46 Y3 2400 Flintlock + Naval Cannon + Navigation Sextant
Social Contract X46 Y9 2400 Critical Thought + Jurisprudence Humanism*, Liberalism Enlightenment, Nationalism
Scientific Method X46 Y11 2400 Critical Thought + Printing Press Chemistry, Physics Calculus, Chemistry, Enlightenment, Explosives, Microbiology
Patent Rights X46 Y13 2400 Corporation Economics
Stock Brokering X46 Y15 2400 Corporation + Mercantilism Economics
Explosives X47 Y5 2700 Flintlock + Scientific Method Mine Warfare, Rifling
Enlightenment X47 Y9 3000 Scientific Method + Social Contract Biology, Liberalism
Chemistry X47 Y11 2700 Metallurgy + Scientific Method Biology, Geology
Calculus X47 Y13 2700 Scientific Method Algebra* Physics
Microbiology X47 Y15 2700 Battlefield Medicine + Scientific Method Botany, Zoology Biology
Mine Warfare X48 Y5 2700 Explosives Military Tradition Trench Warfare
Biology X48 Y7 3000 Chemistry + Enlightenment + Microbiology Scientific Method* Botany, Zoology
Liberalism X48 Y9 3000 Enlightenment Critical Thought*, Printing Press* Constitution, Economics
Geology X48 Y11 3000 Chemistry + Mountaineering Scientific Method* Archeology
Physics X48 Y13 3000 Acoustics + Calculus Astronomy* Rifling, Sextant
Botany X49 Y5 3300 Agricultural Tools + Biology + Crop Rotation Marine Biology, Paleontology
Zoology X49 Y7 3300 Anatomy + Biology Marine Biology, Paleontology
Archeology X49 Y11 3300 Biology + Geology Psychology
Economics X50 Y7 3600 Liberalism + Mercantilism + Patent Rights + Stock Brokering Algebra* Replaceable Parts, (Emancipation, Nationalism)
Constitution X50 Y9 3600 Liberalism Nationalism, Social Contract* Representative Democracy, (Nationalism)
Rifling X50 Y13 3600 Explosives + Physics Metallurgy*, Replaceable Parts Semi-Automatic Weapons, (Nationalism)
Sextant X50 Y15 3600 Naval Tactics + Physics + Weather Forecasting Navigation* Grand War
Hot Air Balloon X50 Y19 3600 Physics + Weather Forecasting Balloon Warfare
Emancipation X51 Y3 3900 (Economics OR Representative Democracy) Colonialism* Women's Suffrage
Replaceable Parts X51 Y7 3900 Economics Nationalism, Printing Press* Steam Power
Nationalism X51 Y9 3900 Social Contract + (Constitution OR Economics OR Rifling) Flintlock, Leadership* Grand War, Military Tradition, Representative Democracy
Military Tradition X52 Y11 4200 Cavalry Tactics + Nationalism Military Science
Grand War X52 Y15 4200 Nationalism + Sextant Military Science
Representative Democracy X52 Y5 4200 Constitution + Nationalism Journalism, (Emancipation)

To get the remaining 7 techs out of the Renaissance, this is what I did:

Spoiler :

Mormon

• Location: X54 Y1 (Military Science moves to X54 Y3)
• Cost: 4200

Gas Lighting

• Prerequisites: Add Steam Power
• Location: X54 Y9
• Cost: 4200

Marine Biology

• Prerequisites: Add Steam Power
• Location: X54 Y11
• Cost: 4200

Paleontology

• Location: X54 Y13
• Cost: 4200

Wildlife Conservation

• Prerequisites: Add Romanticism
• Location: X56 Y3
• Cost: 4500

Bicycles

• Prerequisites: Change to Assembly Line
• Location: X56 Y5
• Cost: 4500

Meteorology

• Prerequisites: Add Telegraph
• Location: X58 Y11
• Cost: 5000

For the benefit of HydromancerX and ls612, here are the column changes. I bolded the techs that changed by 3 or more columns.

Spoiler :

Renaissance

Tech|Change
Archeology|+0
Astrolabe|-1
Astronomy|+1
Battlefield Medicine|-5
Biology|+0
Botany|-1
Calculus|+5 Cavalry Tactics|-3
Chemistry|+2
Colonialism|-4
Constitution|+0
Corporation|-7
Critical Thought|+1
Divine Right|+1
Dueling|-2
Economics|+3
Emancipation|-2
Enlightenment|-2
Explosives|+0
Flintlock|-1
Free Artistry|-1
Geology|+1
Grand War|+3
Gunpowder|+0
Hot Air Balloon|+6
Humanism|-1
Jurisprudence|+0
Leadership|-2
Liberalism|+2
Matchlock|+0
Mercantilism|-1
Metallurgy|+0
Microbiology|-5
Military Tradition|+2
Mine Warfare|-4 Nationalism|+3
Naval Cannon|-1
Naval Tactics|-2
Navigation|+1
Oil Painting|+0
Patent Rights|-7 Physics|+5
Political Philosophy|+1
Printing Press|+0
Replaceable Parts|+1
Representative Democracy|+0
Rifling|-1
Scientific Method|+0
Sextant|+4
Sikhism|-2
Social Contract|-1
Stock Brokering|-7
Team Sports|+1
Weather Forecasting|+1
Zoology|-1

Industrial

Tech|Change
Bicycles|+5 Gas Lighting|+8 Marine Biology|+3 Meteorology|+10
Mormon|+1
Paleontology|+2
Wildlife Conservation|+7

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Vokarya

In your screen shot you have Microbiology at X5 instead of X15 like your char says. So its on top of Explosives.

 

[Vokarya]

@Vokarya

In your screen shot you have Microbiology at X5 instead of X15 like your char says. So its on top of Explosives.

Thanks for pointing that out. I accidentally had Explosives, Mine Warfare, and Microbiology all stacked on top of each other. I forgot to push Mine Warfare to X48 when I pushed Explosives to X47 and I missed the 1 in Microbiology.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Vokarya

Ah so that's where Mine Warfare goes. Anywho my online tech tree should be up to date with your changes too.

 

[Vokarya]

I've been looking at the Industrial Era Tech Tree, and I noticed that, for some inexplicable reason, Impressionism is granting +1 move to naval units. I don't think this is deliberate, and it feels like this belongs on some other tech. Any ideas which one it should be?

Currently, the other +1 sea move techs are:

• Weather Lore (Classical Era)
• Compass (Medieval Era)
• Astrolabe (Renaissance Era)
• Naval Tactics (Renaissance Era)
• Navigation (Renaissance Era)
• Sextant (Renaissance Era)
• Refrigeration (Industrial Era)
• Sonar (Industrial Era)

Also, there seems to be a cluster of +1 sea move techs in the Renaissance. I'd suggest removing the +1 sea movement at Naval Tactics, because you're also getting an effective +1 sea movement from the Naval Academy building that becomes available.

 

[ls612]

I've been looking at the Industrial Era Tech Tree, and I noticed that, for some inexplicable reason, Impressionism is granting +1 move to naval units. I don't think this is deliberate, and it feels like this belongs on some other tech. Any ideas which one it should be?

Currently, the other +1 sea move techs are:

• Weather Lore (Classical Era)
• Compass (Medieval Era)
• Astrolabe (Renaissance Era)
• Naval Tactics (Renaissance Era)
• Navigation (Renaissance Era)
• Sextant (Renaissance Era)
• Refrigeration (Industrial Era)
• Sonar (Industrial Era)

Also, there seems to be a cluster of +1 sea move techs in the Renaissance. I'd suggest removing the +1 sea movement at Naval Tactics, because you're also getting an effective +1 sea movement from the Naval Academy building that becomes available.

Agree with you about removing the movement from Naval Tactics. However, the Renaissance is when you are first allowed to cross the ocean, and before that the navy is really for shore defense or patrolling inland seas, so a large amount of extra moves at that point makes sense and simulates the competition for exploration.

 

[Vokarya]

I'm planning a revamp of the Industrial Era Tech Tree (I think v28 will be delayed over the holidays, so I will probably have enough time to finish this). Like I did with the Renaissance Era, I came up with a system for tying technologies to individual dates/events to sort them out. I ran into a few questions that I'd like to ask of the people who have been around for a while and maybe know the mod's history better than I do.

• Compulsory Education: The first establishment of compulsory education was in 1763 Prussia, but it didn't spread to England until 1870. So it is possible that Compulsory Education is a very late-Renaissance tech instead of an Industrial tech. Is there a particular date that this tech is tied to?
• Advanced Metallurgy: I can see two really good events to tie this to: one is the Hall–Héroult process for producing aluminum by electricity. This is in 1888. The other is Koll producing titanium metal in 1932. I think the second event is correct, but that means breaking the chokepoint that is Advanced Metallurgy, as at the very least Motorized Transportation needs to come before this. Would this be a problem?
• Electricity: This one is a monster, because it is such a broad tech. I'm looking to make the main event the 1873 publication of Maxwell's Laws. This leaves Telegraph behind, since the Morse telegraph is 1837, but I really feel that it's too easy right now to beeline certain techs (like Radio and Refrigeration) that shouldn't be showing up so early in the Industrial Era.
• Submarine Warfare: Do the U-boats of World War I count for this? If so, then the tech requirements need some radical changing.
• Logistics: I can't even peg this one to a date. I suspect it's supposed to be related to US advances in World War II, but that's the best I can do.

 

[Vokarya]

Agree with you about removing the movement from Naval Tactics. However, the Renaissance is when you are first allowed to cross the ocean, and before that the navy is really for shore defense or patrolling inland seas, so a large amount of extra moves at that point makes sense and simulates the competition for exploration.

But if Naval Tactics gives you Naval Academy, which gives you a free Navigation I promotion for all ships built from that point on, that gives you effectively +2 movement from one tech. I think +4 movement per ship (1 each from Astrolabe, Navigation, Sextant, and the free Navigation I at Naval Tactics) is enough, and the real benefit is lifting the Cannot enter ocean requirement on most ships. I know extra moves make sense, but I just think there are too many of them and that paring them down just a bit is ok.

Also, I'm thinking that the +1 sea move that's currently on Impressionism actually belongs on Screw Propeller. Do you think that's right?

 

[ls612]

But if Naval Tactics gives you Naval Academy, which gives you a free Navigation I promotion for all ships built from that point on, that gives you effectively +2 movement from one tech. I think +4 movement per ship (1 each from Astrolabe, Navigation, Sextant, and the free Navigation I at Naval Tactics) is enough, and the real benefit is lifting the Cannot enter ocean requirement on most ships. I know extra moves make sense, but I just think there are too many of them and that paring them down just a bit is ok.

Also, I'm thinking that the +1 sea move that's currently on Impressionism actually belongs on Screw Propeller. Do you think that's right?

1. I agreed with you, remove the Naval Tactics +1 move.

2. Yes, Screw Propeller sounds right to me for the right tech for that. Probably just a typo somewhere that caused that.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Vokarya & ls612

I tweaked the cost of the buildings and wonders that were in Bicycles, Marine Biology, Meteorology and Wildlife Conservation techs. I would have done Gas Lighting too but it has no buildings yet.

The rest still in the Renaissance I guess don't need to be changed. Right?