Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
having said all that, technologies have been lost and rediscovered later. Waterproof cement was used throughout the Classical Era in Europe, Middle East and North Africa but it was forgotten in Europe until the colonial period.
Tech Tree Discussion
- Thread starter Vokarya
- Start date
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
It was not the people on this forum. I just got more and more interested in modding the game Project Zomboid.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I brainstormed on this a while back and came up with a concept of 'knowledge storage'. To be sure that a technology was never lost, a civilization would need sufficient knowledge storage space to maintain it, otherwise it would be considered maintained by verbal tradition alone. Techs could be lost at random if total knowledge volume (known techs would contribute to this amount) exceeded the volume storage. Thus if you lost a bunch of cities that had built libraries etc... or suffered a nuclear catastrophe that laid waste to the buildings providing knowledge storage, techs could start becoming forgotten ever round.
I was figuring education levels would be a major factor in how likely it would be to lose a tech.
Not sure how we should handle a priority of which techs would be lost first. The more we become dependent on technology, the more the common person doesn't personally understand the technologies upon which our modern technologies are based. Who among us would be able to setup a crude smelting process or build a radio from scratch or tan a hide? Some of us could. Some of us can't do division without a calculator. Maybe not enough in some cases.
It's one of those project ideas where the coding would be fairly basic but the XML work would be vast. Without having our buildings charted out on spreadsheets by category and tech progression, it would really become difficult to get right. But if we could pull it off it would represent a lot of situations we've discussed here over the years, just now with the techs lost at the fall of Rome, the noted fact that prehistoric progress took so long because we often had to relearn technologies we had just learned (insufficient knowledge storage prior to writing) and how a massive devastation could throw us back to a much earlier time.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
Just looked at it and it looks like Civ I or II .. .
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
We desperately need the Medieval to be re-sorted out. Techs that should be medieval are positioned in late classical. The Medieval era is dramatically underdeveloped. There's that huge gap in space to work with. It's kinda a mess and it looks like one.
And I think it should go without saying that the team always has room for one of the founding fathers of the mod to get back onboard with us! You might have a little catching up to do on what we've done in the meantime but hopefully it's all good stuff.
I looked at the first link there and didn't see much we don't currently represent unfortunately. I also felt that our tree is much better researched in terms of chronological accuracy. I'm not tooting our horn yet though because I still think it could use a lot of improvement. What few things they did seem to present would be entirely new chains of building concepts and I'm thinking we need to perfect the ones we have before looking at new ones. I suppose if it gets the juices flowing to look elsewhere, its worth looking at, but I've always felt that we, the modders of C2C, have better internal guidance as to what to develop and how to go about it then we get from looking at the works of others. AKA, WE drive innovation, not the other way around!
Well i have been doing more research into tech trees and eras and if its ok I would like to split up existing eras into smaller eras. This is similar to the stuff discissed with MrAzure back in the day. Somethign more like ...
- Paleolithic (Previously Prehistoric)
- Mesolithic (Previously Prehistoric)
- Neolithic (Previously Prehistoric / Ancient)
- Chalcolithic / Copper Age (Previously Ancient)
- Bronze Age (Previously Ancient)
- Iron Age (Previously Classical)
- Dark Age (Previously Classical / Medieval)
- Middle Age (Medieval)
- Renaissance
- Imperial / Colonial (Previously Renaissance)
- Industrial
- Modern / WWI (Previously Industrial / Modern)
- Postmodern / Atomic / WWII (Previously Modern)
- Contemporary [Maybe] (Previously Modern)
- Digital (Previously Modern / Transhuman)
- Genetic / Biotech (Previously Transhuman)
- Cyber (Previously Transhuman)
- Nano (Previously Transhuman / Galactic)
- Interstellar (Previously Galactic)
- Intergalactic (Previously Galactic)
- Future
Note some i have not figured out the official name but this gives you a general outline. It also means the eras are more evened out in how many techs are in them compared to other eras.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Smelting is trivial, tanning not so much. Did you know that until the late 20th C we could not make cloth as good as they had in the middle ages and before. We are still hard pressed to make the good quality stuff from the ancient eras. Advances in tech reduced the quality while increasing the quantity.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
U do remember how hard it is to do so, right, it will take ALONG time to do so . and take along hard work , , ,. .
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
If it was anyone but you I'd say hell no but you know what you're doing so I'd be with you on that. I do think it would help a lot to break the game eras up a bit. If nothing else then with pacing. Joe just restructured the time chart so he might get a little flustered if he wants to try to make it match up but I think ultimately this is not all that bad an idea. There are other charts this would suggest we should adjust as well... but I think we can do this and that it'd be beneficial.
The Information Age would be a good term. I've always liked the term the Atomic Age as well.
However, I'd like to ask that you plan now and implement later. We're in the final stages of the v37 design cycle and are basically in freeze mode now trying to get things smoothed out for a pre Xmas release.
Also, if you're going to do a lot to adjust the tech tree, having the plan laid out so I can review units against the future plan would be good as that's my immediate goal after release is to get the core land unit chains fully reviewed. If the tech tree is to quake and shake too much then it could be something I'd need to wait on. At which point I do have other things I can tackle.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
This is just a rough outline. I have been mainly working with the Prehistoric and Ancient Eras. So if i started anywhere it would be splitting up the Prehistoric Era into 3 eras.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
I hear that, i remember u and i working on the PreH era, it took almost a year . . lol
pepper2000
King
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2013
- Messages
- 899
Are we talking about restructuring the tech tree, or simply adding new eras and changing the boundaries? Since there are many game elements tied to eras, I think the main challenge will be building a consensus on how to do the restructuring. But I've advocated in the past for splitting the two future eras into three or four and I would go for a revisiting of this issue.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
As long as it's done in segments should not be a problem. Time "line" for each era is based on # of Tech/Era. At the time I did the work Preh Era had 100 Tech which was a great boon for trying to hit Date Ranges for each era. I think there have been some techs added since then. I have not done a recent count.
Adding more Eras will require all C2C users/players to reset their User settings file (and possibly cache as well) or we will have players coming in complaining their "dates" have run amok.
But getting v37 out before Christmas would be Great! Especially if SO can get the v37 up on ModDB and get v36 removed.
JosEPh
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Well I could see it done in 3 phases.
Phase 1
Select a staring and stopping column. Such as X15 to X18 is whatever Era.Then all techs within those get changed to the new era type.
Phase 2
Moving techs to more appropriate eras if they happen to fall on the wrong side of the cut off. However for the most part all techs should already be in order thanks to MrAzure and Vokarya.
Phase 3
Add in new techs. This can be for balance or just because we want new cool techs. Note this is the hardest part.
EDIT: Also Thunderbd's promotion lines that are linked to eras might get messed up. Since there would be new eras.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
As far as healers and law enforcement goes, I've come to agree with Joe's assessment that the Healers and Enforcers are coming too early. They would be better positioned in the later section of the prehistoric anyhow. But this also means that Naturopathy and Conduct need to be moved further down the tree a bit. There are a number of other threads this tugs on, which is fine so long as we can determine a new rational flow that keeps the two of those techs in the same or at least within one or two X columns of each other. The stats of the units shouldn't have to be adjusted much. It should probably also mean the Theft tech should move to around the same region.
If y'all can figure out how to restructure the tech tree to accomplish that, cool. Then I can work on adjusting the units as needed.
Generally speaking, it is not completely necessary for the unit upgrades and promotion upgrades to be spaced by era as much as spaced for the benefit of game timing. The eras we have were used as guidelines. I also think going about it this way certainly confirms that the transhuman is 2 or 3 eras packed into one and that the Prehistoric represents a LOT of time passage for one era.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
There is a problem with moving Naturopathy, it affects the religions.
The early religions are wrong anyway as Yoruba and Kemet are both far latter than they should be.
Currently The Pyramids, which are at about the correct time, come way before Mummification which is required for Kemet (which is the modern name).
The early religions are wrong anyway as Yoruba and Kemet are both far latter than they should be.
Currently The Pyramids, which are at about the correct time, come way before Mummification which is required for Kemet (which is the modern name).
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Maybe the religion can be made off a different prereq. The last time I looked at Naturopathy, nearly everything on it should be coming a bit later in the tree to space out properly from the benefits at Herbalism. But that religion issue WAS one of the major reasons to keep it where it was. Thus Theft and Conduct were needing to come up before they probably should have been set to do so as well, given that they need to parallel Naturopathy and the emergence of the Healer.
IIRC, there are yet more factors that make moving Naturopathy difficult as well.
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Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
I am considering replacing the current Shamanism and Druidism with something a bit more base Culture related and making the whole religious stage of "Animism" so that everyone gets one and develops it or not before they get one of the more organised religions which would include Shamanism and Druidism. I.E. adding a whole new level of informal religions before the formal ones. The problem with that is that the tech Animism will then be wrong, it would probably need to be changed to "Shamans" and a new earlier tech "Spirituality" added.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Sounds like a good plan imo. I know I've asked you to uncomfortably keep choose religions in the game but it would make sense to have a pre-religion stage like this.
You might find the prehistoric tech tree in my modmod interesting; I added serveral new ones, redesigned/renamed some old ones and rearranged everything.
Sir_UristmcAmon
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2016
- Messages
- 18
I think dark ages should be renamed to Early Medieval era and Middle Ages to High and Late Medieval era. For the Transhuman part, i think the eras should represent the different levels of difficulty to improving life on earth; basically what Im saying is that eras, should relate to their names; Digital, should contain all the Digital techs, then Cyber should contain all the Cyber techs, Genetic should contain all the Biotech techs and Nano should contain all the Nano techs.
Also the Imperial era, should at lest start with the Imperialism tech and Colonial can start with the Colonialism tech.
