Tech Tree Discussion

[Yudishtira]

The Caravel at Compass is now in the same place as the Sloop of War, which also starts off oceangoing. It makes the Caravel obsolete from birth, except for sneaking around without Open Borders. The Sloop of War is also way ahead of the Sloop (which is really at Metallurgy in Renaissance - never mind what the tech tree or pedia say), which it presumably developed from, and which it also almost totally obsoletes.

So the Sloop of War needs to move later than the sloop. Maybe move the Sloop forward to Gunpowder or Astrolabe, and put the Sloop of War at Metallurgy.

And I have not looked at how the Fluyt fits into all this... I suggest it should maybe be the Fluyt at Compass (but not oceangoing till Astronomy?).

Probably completely anhistorical, but makes sense in game terms (finally...)

 

[raxo2222]

The Caravel at Compass is now in the same place as the Sloop of War, which also starts off oceangoing. It makes the Caravel obsolete from birth, except for sneaking around without Open Borders. The Sloop of War is also way ahead of the Sloop (which is really at Metallurgy in Renaissance - never mind what the tech tree or pedia say), which it presumably developed from, and which it also almost totally obsoletes.

So the Sloop of War needs to move later than the sloop. Maybe move the Sloop forward to Gunpowder or Astrolabe, and put the Sloop of War at Metallurgy.

And I have not looked at how the Fluyt fits into all this... I suggest it should maybe be the Fluyt at Compass (but not oceangoing till Astronomy?).

Probably completely anhistorical, but makes sense in game terms (finally...)

It is known, that unit upgrade lines are messed up.
There was one case of units being backward in time - Y upgraded to X instead of vicewersa - I fixed that in one of commits.

10343

Finished revising the pedia sections of prehistoric technologies.

Commit tech revisions in era packages - that is when you finish Ancient (and later eras) techs text revision then upload it.
In game those revised texts appeared bit randomly since you went in alphabetic order.

 

[raxo2222]

@Thunderbrd Don't forget to add your tech tree to signature.

 

[Thunderbrd]

@Thunderbrd Don't forget to add your tech tree to signature.

Done! Also, thank you for helping me to update that - I mean it sincerely. It's a HUGE help to me, and hopefully the rest of the team as well, when these are maintained.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Could we put the Caravel back to Optics? And can the Dromon get a raise in strength as well. The Galleass also needs to come a bit earlier. Or given some seaworthiness.

 

[KaTiON_PT]

Could we put the Caravel back to Optics?

You don't like them at Compass?

 

[JosEPh_II]

You don't like them at Compass?

Weellllll…...ummm……...it's taking me forever to get to Compass in the Long game...........and .....…...I reeeally need to get a seagoing vessel asap.

 

[KaTiON_PT]

Well, I can place the caravel back there again and review the sloop as well. You aren't the only one who dislikes having caravels unlocking that late, even though it makes sense chronologically it is less fun gameplay wise. Though there were some who liked the change like @Yudishtira.

 

[Thunderbrd]

it is less fun gameplay wise.

That's debatable. The intense eagerness to get them is an indication of why it's not necessarily bad to withhold them a bit longer into what is kinda a slow and somewhat boring era otherwise. Renaissance can drag so holding off a bit helps to make that era more fun while the previous medieval era may not need that boost in interest so much. That said, I do intend to make the seaworthiness mod soon but it will need units to be properly charted out first anyhow.

Just speaking theoretically here Joseph.

 

[JosEPh_II]

That's debatable. The intense eagerness to get them is an indication of why it's not necessarily bad to withhold them a bit longer into what is kinda a slow and somewhat boring era otherwise. Renaissance can drag so holding off a bit helps to make that era more fun while the previous medieval era may not need that boost in interest so much. That said, I do intend to make the seaworthiness mod soon but it will need units to be properly charted out first anyhow.

Just speaking theoretically here Joseph.

Understand.

I would like to see the Dromon get a strength perk (+1) and the Galleass a sea worthiness one too. If Galleass is not made sea worthy then at least a +1 str perk.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Understand.

I would like to see the Dromon get a strength perk (+1) and the Galleass a sea worthiness one too. If Galleass is not made sea worthy then at least a +1 str perk.

I'll look at all that when the units are finally put to a spreadsheet.

It's been a long time since I've looked at combat values in that era, but is it possible that a lot of the strength of those units is wrapped up in a strong combat modifier against wooden ships?

 

[Yudishtira]

I'll look at all that when the units are finally put to a spreadsheet.

It's been a long time since I've looked at combat values in that era, but is it possible that a lot of the strength of those units is wrapped up in a strong combat modifier against wooden ships?

Don't forget the Naval Unit Review spreadsheet. You might be able to get away with not duplicating that in this effort (although I realize it's perhaps years out-of-date).

 

[Thunderbrd]

Don't forget the Naval Unit Review spreadsheet. You might be able to get away with not duplicating that in this effort (although I realize it's perhaps years out-of-date).

Yeah a ton of that is still valid though needing recalibrated a bit. There's still a few added effects to create for that but it's closer to implementation than it was. The problem is it didn't go back before Industrial age so now there's a growing need to include those earlier vessels into the evaluation, much as Hydro didn't want them to have to be.

 

[Thunderbrd]

OK, so we have some serious problems with the timing of some techs now. Techs that should clearly be Industrial age techs have slipped back into the Renaissance and do not belong there in the slightest. I'm not going to say how it should be fixed so much as just open up the discussion. I'm not sure this is all but the following techs are the offenders:
TECH_CORPORATION
TECH_STOCK_EXCHANGING
TECH_PHYSICS

These are all dated in Real World to be just before 1800, which means they would be way too early to still be in the Renaissance. Furthermore, it makes little sense to have them predate Assembly Line.

Corporations were invented to accommodate for the centralization of large industrial efforts so that investments into those efforts would not be such a great risk to the individual. The risks for sole proprietors and partnerships were just becoming too high in this new age of factory production.

Stock trading was a direct extension onto the concept of the corporate structure. That it has Corporation as a prereq cannot be changed so it would also have to move and when you look at the dating of the opening of the first stock exchanges, the RL examples will match that observation.

Physics was invented by Newton - aka Newtonian physics is what this tech represents. This also happened just before 1800. There are techs surrounding this that may be just as suspect to be out of chronological order but this one is the most dateable and it's pretty out of whack where it sits on our tech tree... currently situated prior to constitution and rifling.

As a footnote, I think Assembly line is probably too far into the tree. Emancipation was a result of this technology, not a prerequisite of it. It was the improvements to rifle design that prompted the development of this technology - the finer measurements and tolerances needed for these improved weapons made them the first products to be applied to an assembly line process and from there the concept blossomed into factory production models being applied to everything else very quickly. Emancipation wasn't considered until long after the cotton gin was invented and the cotton gin was invented as a result of factory processes being envisioned as possible to manage the previously slave dominated task of de-seeding cotton.

We may have made this part of the tech tree LOOK better in game but if it's going to do that at the cost of anachronism, I'd prefer we pause to re-evaluate the actual appearances in time and rationales for their emergence as being much more important than the aesthetics of the tree. I don't know when these drifted out of synch with realism here but I'm hoping the team can look into how to fix it.

 

[raxo2222]

Prehistoric and Information eras are bit anachronistic internally too - @KaTiON_PT pm'd me as he wanted to share how he would redo those era, but since tech tree is frozen for now (you are doing traits) he is waiting for now.

As for physics Newton's discoveries were done before 1700 AD.

As for Assembly Line all factories require electricity.
I removed electricity requirements only if new resource was unlocked before electricity.

Corporations like Dutch East India Company was founded in 1600 AD.

In general total revision of tech tree would be needed to make it exactly historic.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Prehistoric and Information eras are bit anachronistic internally too - @KaTiON_PT pm'd me as he wanted to share how he would redo those era, but since tech tree is frozen for now (you are doing traits) he is waiting for now.

Let's not freeze it RIGHT now. The traits don't concern themselves much with the order of the techs - it's the unit review, which none of us are tackling quite yet, that will need a freezing of the tree but that should be done once the tree is not only frozen but right where we want to leave it - for good. Only the slightest adjustments should ever be made again once we start in on the unit upgrade reevaluations so that they never get thrown out of whack so easily again. Of course, in the process of an upgrade path audit, we might find the need to move some techs around further for that purpose but only if it's not in a way that isn't forgiving to real world observations.

My traits project won't be harmed by some shifting around on the tree anyhow.

As for Assembly Line all factories require electricity.

If that's the case, than such electric driven factories should be at a later tech and be an upgrade to factories that already exist, or factories should become far more effective when electricity is available to them rather than requiring them because historically the first factories did NOT require electricity. The invention of the assembly line was an invention of the process of each station addressing a single stage in the manufacturing process. This, on its surface, doesn't need electricity. It allowed each station to become a highly specialized function and the assembly process was incredibly sped up in doing so while ensuring a higher quality product with more reliable repeatable results. This is how companies could put their stamp on a product now and no matter who you bought that product from or where you got it, it was always going to be pretty much the same.

As for physics newton's discoveries were done before 1700 year.

I stand corrected that I'm 100 yrs off because of my poor listening skills as my wife was reading the history on this to me - BUT, that's still 100 years after the end of the Renaissance. However, looking at the dating of the Constitution, now that it's put that way it might be about right.

That said, looking at some history on corporations, I still think THAT is a bit early on our tree.

 

[Yudishtira]

The Civ Renaissance continues till the Industrial Revolution so at least 1760. Newtonian Physics is correctly a Renaissance tech.

 

[Thunderbrd]

The Civ Renaissance continues till the Industrial Revolution so at least 1760. Newtonian Physics is correctly a Renaissance tech.

Now that I'm evaluating further, I agree with its placement, particularly using Constitution as a dating reference point.

I'm also seeing that Replaceable Parts is the tech meant to indicate what I think of as the Assembly Line so maybe we're not so out of sync there either.

However, Corporation and those techs that depend on it ARE still way out of date.

In the late 18th century, Stewart Kyd, the author of the first treatise on corporate law in English, defined a corporation as:

a collection of many individuals united into one body, under a special denomination, having perpetual succession under an artificial form, and vested, by policy of the law, with the capacity of acting, in several respects, as an individual, particularly of taking and granting property, of contracting obligations, and of suing and being sued, of enjoying privileges and immunities in common, and of exercising a variety of political rights, more or less extensive, according to the design of its institution, or the powers conferred upon it, either at the time of its creation, or at any subsequent period of its existence.

— A Treatise on the Law of Corporations, Stewart Kyd (1793–1794)

Here's where it should really be placed and we have it far earlier. 1776 would be the Declaration of Independence and thus Representative Democracy, which is in the column preceding Industrial Lifestyle. Thus, Corporation really should be just after Industrial Lifestyle. I'm not sure quite what the difference between Constitution and Rep Dem could be seen as so maybe Constitution should be considered at 1774-1776. Either way, Corp predates that by a few columns as well and should clearly be after at least Constitution by a bit of a margin.

Otherwise, the Physics does sit well so I'll not make any further issue on that or Assembly Line since my thoughts on Assembly Line are clearly tied to Replaceable Parts instead. Where Industrial Lifestyle sits isn't really the factor I'm concerned about either since it can be seen as the point that people identify themselves as being within the industrial revolution and that can either be seen as a prerequisite of or a result of Replaceable Parts and is probably best as is, a result of the growing industrial revolution.

 

[raxo2222]

Let's not freeze it RIGHT now. The traits don't concern themselves much with the order of the techs - it's the unit review, which none of us are tackling quite yet, that will need a freezing of the tree but that should be done once the tree is not only frozen but right where we want to leave it - for good. Only the slightest adjustments should ever be made again once we start in on the unit upgrade reevaluations so that they never get thrown out of whack so easily again. Of course, in the process of an upgrade path audit, we might find the need to move some techs around further for that purpose but only if it's not in a way that isn't forgiving to real world observations.

My traits project won't be harmed by some shifting around on the tree anyhow.

I guess @KaTiON_PT can synchronize techs with our timeline.
This is what he proposed for Prehistoric and Information era in PM.

Spoiler :

Tech requirement buttons weren't adjusted here.
Notice how Information era neatly fits 5 year tech level increments.

If that's the case, than such electric driven factories should be at a later tech and be an upgrade to factories that already exist, or factories should become far more effective when electricity is available to them rather than requiring them because historically the first factories did NOT require electricity. The invention of the assembly line was an invention of the process of each station addressing a single stage in the manufacturing process. This, on its surface, doesn't need electricity. It allowed each station to become a highly specialized function and the assembly process was incredibly sped up in doing so while ensuring a higher quality product with more reliable repeatable results. This is how companies could put their stamp on a product now and no matter who you bought that product from or where you got it, it was always going to be pretty much the same.

Probably it was this way since forever.
I guess you never looked at how Assembly Line and its electricity needing factory resource producers are unlocked before Electricity and its power plants.
This is what happens when you move things without looking at requirement/upgrade chains.

I stand corrected that I'm 100 yrs off because of my poor listening skills as my wife was reading the history on this to me - BUT, that's still 100 years after the end of the Renaissance. However, looking at the dating of the Constitution, now that it's put that way it might be about right.

That said, looking at some history on corporations, I still think THAT is a bit early on our tree.

Here is exactly how you as team set era time table (I changed timetable for future eras a little though back when I made new calendar).


Prehistoric: 200 000 BC - 6000 BC
Ancient: 6000 BC - 2000 BC
Classical: 2000 BC - 600 AD
Medieval: 600 AD - 1300 AD
Renaissance: 1300 AD - 1700 AD
Industrial: 1700 AD - 1900 AD
Modern: 1900 AD - 1990 AD
Information: 1990 AD - 2050 AD
Nanotech: 2050 AD - 2150 AD
Transhuman: 2150 AD - 2300 AD
Galactic: 2300 AD - 3000 AD
Cosmic: 3000 AD - 4000 AD
Transcendent: 4000 AD - 6000 AD

This is part of my tech tree in pics post (link is in my signature).
I just removed fluff here like pictures and colorful descriptions.

By the way DH said, that some religions are in wrong place before.

That is synchronizing tech tree with our timeline would likely break many requirement and upgrade chains, and they would be checked after it is done.

 

[Thunderbrd]

This is what he proposed for Prehistoric and Information era in PM.

My only observation would be to suggest to add an AND prereq of Trapping to Hunting. There should usually be a prerequisite of something in the immediate previous x-grid for most techs if possible imo. Other thinking down this road of evaluation may apply here.

I'm also kind of thinking that Cooperation should require Deception but I can see arguments as to why it might not. The reason here is, the birth of crime would seem to naturally predate the birth of crime control as one would be a response to the other. It would be easy enough to shift Cooperation up to being between Deception and Theft for this purpose, making Language an AND prereq for Cooperation.

But all in all, although it represents some definite changes to the way the prehistoric is played, I don't see any direct problems with this proposal. I also see a lot of improvements in it. Curious what DH would see in it. I'm not going to look so closely at the Information age but it seemed alright. Clearly, Kation has a talent with the tech tree.

Probably it was this way since forever.
I guess you never looked at how Assembly Line and its electricity needing factory resource producers are unlocked before Electricity and its power plants.
This is what happens if you move things without looking at requirement/upgrade chains.

Make sure to read previous posts here - I recall now that I'm probably mixing up my concept of what Assembly Line is with Replaceable Parts. I'm pretty sure that's been talked out so isn't an issue now.

This is exactly how you as team set era time table (I changed timetable for future eras a little though back when I made new calendar).

Based on closer analysis, 1700 AD (I'm not sure what CE is exactly - my apologies for being educated in a different system - does it mean the same thing as AD?) would be incorrect for the way the tree is setup now for the end of ren/beginning of Industrial. Based on what dates I'm seeing correlating to the techs just before Industrial Lifestyle, perhaps Industrial Lifestyle would be placed directly at 1800 AD.

By the way DH said, that some religions are in wrong place before.

I think he's generally right. I'd roll with him on that. Certainly Polytheism, the tech, is currently WAY out of where it should be since it goes back a hell of a lot farther and should technically predate Mesopotamianism, the first truly official Polytheistic religion, rather than simply Hinduism, though that may mean changing a lot about what that tech unlocks since some of that might be more appropriate where it is.