Tech Tree Discussion

[Yudishtira]

The Dutch East India Company is a colonial administration, not a corporation. Even if it was, the existence of one example is not where the tech goes (otherwise you'd put Tourism at Marco Polo lol). The tech represents the mechanism significantly pervading society. Corporations should be in Industrial.

 

[raxo2222]

Based on closer analysis, 1700 AD (I'm not sure what CE is exactly - my apologies for being educated in a different system - does it mean the same thing as AD?) would be incorrect for the way the tree is setup now for the end of ren/beginning of Industrial. Based on what dates I'm seeing correlating to the techs just before Industrial Lifestyle, perhaps Industrial Lifestyle would be placed directly at 1800 AD.

BCE/CE is "nonreligious" version of BC/AD

 

[Thunderbrd]

The Dutch East India Company is a colonial administration, not a corporation. Even if it was, the existence of one example is not where the tech goes (otherwise you'd put Tourism at Marco Polo lol). The tech represents the mechanism significantly pervading society. Corporations should be in Industrial.

I was going off the earliest example of the term in use but I tend to fully agree that it should be as you suggest. The dating of that quote may well apply to 'Grand War' being related to the introduction of the East India Trading company.

Perhaps this:

The next, crucial development, then, was the Limited Liability Act 1855, passed at the behest of the then Vice President of the Board of Trade, Mr. Robert Lowe. This allowed investors to limit their liability in the event of business failure to the amount they invested in the company – shareholders were still liable directly to creditors, but just for the unpaid portion of their shares. (The principle that shareholders are liable to the corporation had been introduced in the Joint Stock Companies Act 1844).

is the point we should be establishing for Corporation.

 

[Thunderbrd]

BCE/CE is "nonreligious" version of BC/AD

For the sake of expanding knowledge here, what does CE stand for? And as I suspected, it is numerically the same, not 100 yrs off from AD then right?

 

[raxo2222]

For the sake of expanding knowledge here, what does CE stand for? And as I suspected, it is numerically the same, not 100 yrs off from AD then right?

BCE is Before Common Era and CE is Common Era.
They are numerically same.

 

[Thunderbrd]

BCE is Before Common Era and CE is Common Era.
They are numerically same.

Thanks for clarifying. Cool.

 

[Yudishtira]

Based on closer analysis, 1700 AD (I'm not sure what CE is exactly - my apologies for being educated in a different system - does it mean the same thing as AD?) would be incorrect for the way the tree is setup now for the end of ren/beginning of Industrial. Based on what dates I'm seeing correlating to the techs just before Industrial Lifestyle, perhaps Industrial Lifestyle would be placed directly at 1800 AD.

What do you think of the rest of those? My understanding was that Classical starts around 800BC with Homer. And the last column of Industrial are virtually all 20th century techs.

 

[KaTiON_PT]

Keep in mind those images are drafts made in paint for guidance and lack the necessary and reordered AND prerequisites, a few more considerations will need to be had before implementing it (for example your suggestion of Cooperation needing Deception @Thunderbrd).

For the prehistoric era many units and buildings will need to be changed between techs. I tried to resolve 3 issues:

• Fix the language branch from being "alone".
• Make chasers more important and useful for a longer period of time by placing them at Presistence Hunting and moving Trackers to Hunting.
• Make the techs fit a bit better chronologically as I've researched a bit when they supposedly "happen" while doing their quote revision according to Wikipedia and the scholarly sources that it references.

For the information era I found that it is a jumble of existing and near-futuristic technologies. Like for the prehistoric era I've rearranged them to be more chronologically sound according to what I've read.

 

[raxo2222]

Speaking of historical accuracy should be calendar remade to this?
Prehistoric: 200 000 BC - 10 000 BC
Ancient: 10 000 BC - 1000 BC
Classical: 1000 BC - 500 AD
Medieval: 500 AD - 1400 AD
Renaissance: 1400 AD - 1750 AD
Industrial: 1750 AD - 1900 AD
----
Modern: 1900 AD - 1990 AD
Information: 1990 AD - 2050 AD
Nanotech: 2050 AD - 2150 AD
Transhuman: 2150 AD - 2300 AD
Galactic: 2300 AD - 3000 AD
Cosmic: 3000 AD - 4000 AD
Transcendent: 4000 AD- 6000 AD

This is what @UncivilizedGuy proposed.

 

[Thunderbrd]

One issue I have with the proposal - the big cats trainer would require Feline Domestication and the stats on those first felines is a closer parallel with the first canine unit. We might be ok to have a little anachronism there for games sake, or move the Feline trainer to Megafauna Domestication, which might then mean that the prereq of Elephant Domestication might be a little misguided for that tech.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Make chasers more important and useful for a longer period of time by placing them at Presistence Hunting and moving Trackers to Hunting.

I noticed that and liked it.

Make the techs fit a bit better chronologically as I've researched a bit when they supposedly "happen" while doing their quote revision according to Wikipedia and the scholarly sources that it references.

Strongly appreciated.
You also were working on keeping things much cleaner and more rational in progression which is huge. I like a lot of what you've done. I point out what I see but it doesn't mean I'm not deeply impressed with this initial draft.

For the information era I found that it is a jumble of existing and near-futuristic technologies. Like for the prehistoric era I've rearranged them to be more chronologically sound according to what I've read.

I've noticed that myself and it drives me crazy. Changes there MIGHT mean some changes to some things in the traits I'm doing but that's not that hard to edit for after the fact.

Prehistoric: 200 000 BC - 10 000 BC
Ancient: 10 000 BC - 1000 BC
Classical: 1000 BC - 500 AD
Medieval: 500 AD - 1400 AD
Renaissance: 1400 AD - 1750 AD
Industrial: 1750 AD - 1900 AD
----
Modern: 1900 AD - 1990 AD
Information: 1990 AD - 2050 AD
Nanotech: 2050 AD - 2150 AD
Transhuman: 2150 AD - 2300 AD
Galactic: 2300 AD - 3000 AD
Cosmic: 3000 AD - 4000 AD
Transcendent: 4000 AD- 6000 AD

Pretty good proposal though I might try 12000 BC as the shift point from Prehistoric to Ancient, as has been loudly argued for previously by some and make Classical 2kBC to 500AD(EDIT: Noticing Yudi's post, perhaps to 800AD instead). How would that go?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I have two quibbles with that tech tree

1. with all the changes over the years Druidic Traditions has moved to far to early in the tree. It is a sub set of Animism and should be after that tech.
   
   As suggested elsewhere:- both Druid and Shaman religions are removed (to be reintroduced in a later version) and a new set of "Region" Animism religions are made. None of them have a Holy City and everyone gets their regions version when they get the tech. This will solve the problem that not having a religion causes. These would be special in that it always spreads to your cities but you can only have one of the set in a city at any one time.
   
   
2. Harpoons were used to hunt all large critters. The current Harpoon Making tech probably needs to be split into two, one for making and one for use against sea based critters, or just moved. The Harpoon is a bit of equipment used by hunters mostly and should give a boost to chances against large and bigger critters.
   
   edit Perhaps a tech Barbed Point after Spear Making
   
   If you don't want to change the tech tree for this then there should be a "Hunting Tradition - Harpoons" available at Spear Making.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

... (otherwise you'd put Tourism at Marco Polo lol). ...

But we should have a "Pilgrimages" tech way back in the Classic era which serves a similar function. Although you would not go as far in the Classic Era as you would in each of the following eras. There is even an event in vanilla about this.

• Make chasers more important and useful for a longer period of time by placing them at Presistence Hunting and moving Trackers to Hunting.

If you have moved them then perhaps their name needs to change to reflect the new tech they are at. You would also need to get a new name for the Hunters though.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Here is exactly how you as team set era time table (I changed timetable for future eras a little though back when I made new calendar).


Prehistoric: 200 000 BCE - 6000 BCE
Ancient: 6000 BCE - 2000 BCE
Classical: 2000 BCE - 600 CE
Medieval: 600 CE - 1300 CE
Renaissance: 1300 CE - 1700 CE
Industrial: 1700 CE - 1900 CE
Modern: 1900 CE - 1990 CE

This is correct and what T-brd and I agreed upon when it was made/set up this way. And after change from 50,000 BC start to 200,000BC start. Which I still don't like nor think is necessary.

I also do not like the BCE CE annotations.

 

[JosEPh_II]

BCE/CE is "nonreligious" version of BC/AD

Which is incongruous to the BtS Game in general that Uses Religions for Base game play and for Dating. And since when does the "non religious" version take precedence? Who on the Team voted for or against the original method of dating. And lastly when did this Vote occur? I think someone is being presumptuous.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Pretty good proposal though I might try 12000 BC as the shift point from Prehistoric to Ancient, as has been loudly argued for previously by some and make Classical 2kBC to 500AD(EDIT: Noticing Yudi's post, perhaps to 800AD instead). How would that go?

Disagree.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Which is incongruous to the BtS Game in general that Uses Religions for Base game play and for Dating. And since when does the "non religious" version take precedence? Who on the Team voted for or against the original method of dating. And lastly when did this Vote occur? I think someone is being presumptuous.

Everyone can express it however they wish - I just wanted to make sure it wasn't different numbering. Nowhere in the game is it expressed one way or the other and if it is then I think it's still BC/AD.

with all the changes over the years Druidic Traditions has moved to far to early in the tree. It is a sub set of Animism and should be after that tech.

As suggested elsewhere:- both Druid and Shaman religions are removed (to be reintroduced in a later version) and a new set of "Region" Animism religions are made. None of them have a Holy City and everyone gets their regions version when they get the tech. This will solve the problem that not having a religion causes. These would be special in that it always spreads to your cities but you can only have one of the set in a city at any one time.

I do think Druidism is too early and think it should likely even be after Shaminism but its true nobody has ever been able to date it's origin or even get a guess at it from what I can tell. I understand why you want to change those early religions to a more generic system. Kinda a shame though since I do like those religions.

Disagree.

Well... you disagree that modernity to man comes about at 200,000 BC so no matter what we do to try to align the mod to the current beliefs of archaeological science, you're going to disagree, from what I'm hearing. If I'm not mistaken, you're of the camp that believes Earth was created in 6000 BC right? I don't know that for sure but I'm honestly thinking back to previous conversations. I don't know if that's what I remember from before or not. I'm not meaning any disrespect. Since my understanding that the first cities were founded around 6k BC (Namely Ur in Sumeria) is now considered outdated information and it goes back much further now due to more current recent observations, I'm happy to allow for change to take place in the mod regarding this. I personally have the theory that around 6k BC was when the Biblical flood took place, which I do think occurred and not just localized to Mesopotamia as some suggest as well. Ur may be one of the first post-flood settlements.

 

[JosEPh_II]

For the Mod 50,000BC was fine when we had it. You all made the decision to go to 200,000 and yes I disagreed back then over that but rolled with it Because it Is a game after all. I do take umbrage when posters or Team members start saying their knowledge of history is Exact.

 

[Thunderbrd]

For the Mod 50,000BC was fine when we had it. You all made the decision to go to 200,000 and yes I disagreed back then over that but rolled with it Because it Is a game after all. I do take umbrage when posters or Team members start saying their knowledge of history is Exact.

It's dated to when behavioral modernity seems to have emerged for homo sapiens. Nobody is saying their knowledge of history is exact, just going off the best sources of knowledge available is all.

EDIT: At the time we established 200k BC, some resource material was giving that moment. Now they are saying this:

The term Middle Paleolithic is intended to cover the time between the first emergence of H. sapiens (roughly 300,000 years ago) and the emergence of full behavioral modernity (roughly 50,000 years ago).

Note that their guidelines on behavioral modernity here include language, tool usage and numerous things we have to be earned on the tech tree. So with a 200k BC start, we're assuming that the first 100k yrs of homo sapien existence was spent getting to the point that the tech tree begins at here. The start of the game could well be set that far back.

I was hoping that by setting it further back than 50k, we could show more of the truly prehistoric fauna and give some time for some Earth changes to take place - which we haven't worked on yet - during a Nomadic Start prior to city developments. At 50k yrs ago, we already had quite a few of the techs that are on the early prehistoric list as well, though that's also about the time they say homo sapiens showed up in Europe at all. I can see why a 50k BC start would be justified but it cuts out some possibilities we could play with. There were a lot more critters extinct by then.

 

[JosEPh_II]

just going off the best sources of knowledge available is all.

Final statement on this subject, and then I'm dropping it, who says they are the "best" sources? That is subjective from all points of view or basis.