Tech tree generator?

[Mouthwash]

The reason I came up with this is because I keep seeing reworked tech trees for mods. In my opinion, none of them are as carefully balanced or as familiar as the original. The problem with the original is that it tends to get a bit boring, and doesn't give you that feeling of discovery that came with the first game.
So my idea is a tech tree generator. All the classic techs would be included, but their positions would be randomized. Not sure if this is a stupid idea.

 

[Voyhkah]

Ummm... I can't believe what I think you said. I must be misinterpreting you. Can you say that again?

 

[code99]

to me it sounds a bad idea ... what happens if, lets say pottery tech gets randomly placed in medieval era ... you will play without cottages until then ?

or you meant something else and i missunderstood you ?

 

[Voyhkah]

to me it sounds a bad idea ... what happens if, lets say pottery tech gets randomly placed in medieval era ... you will play without cottages until then ?

or you meant something else and i missunderstood you ?

That's what I thought he meant, but that can't be right. No-one would propose such a thing. What would it be like if stealth was replaced with agriculture? He must, MUST mean something else.

 

[Highwayhoss]

How can anyone randomize something that is so clearly dependent on cause and effect? It is called a tech tree for a reason. A randomly generated tech tree is nothing but a pile of wood.

However I do have an idea to propose....how about this: when your civ enters a new era you cannot research any techs from previous eras? It would discourage tech beelining and create a case of "paths not taken".

 

[code99]

How can anyone randomize something that is so clearly dependent on cause and effect? It is called a tech tree for a reason. A randomly generated tech tree is nothing but a pile of wood.

However I do have an idea to propose....how about this: when your civ enters a new era you cannot research any techs from previous eras? It would discourage tech beelining and create a case of "paths not taken".

Well idk, to me still sounds a bad idea and besides you can easily work around it, just research all tech of the era u are in before proceeding. Unless im mistaken about how that works.

 

[Megatherion]

Randomizing the techtree sounds like a bad idea to me.
Not being able to research technologies of past eras also seems like a bad idea, unless you allow for alternatives. Example: Obviously you can't build cottages without pottery; fine, but you should then be able to build cottages or towns when you discover masonry or something else that would allow for a structure like a cottage/ town to be built.

An alternative to randomizing the tech tree would be to randomize gaining techs. So you can't choose which technology you discover, you can just choose how much you invest in research, and the outcome will be more or less random, depending on decisions.
I haven't planned that out, but I think an event driven research could look something like that:
You build a lot of warriors in the beginning → probabilty to gain a tech that is related to fighting rises
You place a worker on a resoures → probability of a tech that lets you use that resource rises.

I dunno if this would be fun, but it would be more realistic. I thought I just throw this in while we're at radically new approaches to the tech tree .

 

[Mouthwash]

Let me make this clear: the tech tree "randomizer" OBVIOUSLY would not be completely random. There would be era limitations, and there would have to be an algorithm to make the tech branches make sense.

I shouldn't have said "all the classic techs would be included, but their positions would be randomized." What I meant by that was that the branches of the tech tree would be altered- not really randomized, but reassembled in a way that would create balanced gameplay.

And Highwayhoss, beelining techs are not exploitations. Getting assembly line while ignoring other useful techs is the correct way to play the game. Your solution would mess up any kind of strategy.

 

[Voyhkah]

I think Megatherion makes some good points. His system makes sense, since people didn't really set out to discover many of these techs, such as bronze working and assembly line. They just happened. And what Megatherion is suggesting isn't total randomization, the techs you discover would be influenced by stuff you have. This has all sorts of room for intresting stuff! I'm going to consider this for iNoc.

 

[Mouthwash]

I think Megatherion makes some good points. His system makes sense, since people didn't really set out to discover many of these techs, such as bronze working and assembly line. They just happened. And what Megatherion is suggesting isn't total randomization, the techs you discover would be influenced by stuff you have. This has all sorts of room for intresting stuff! I'm going to consider this for iNoc.

Well, it would defeat the purpose of a "tech tree," although it might not be a bad idea. But I'm confused about the details. How would you get agriculture? Position a worker over a food resource? What if you wanted to get BW and do an early rush? How would these techs just "happen?"

Besides, having random things happen in any strategy game is bad. Just look at Civ 5.

 

[Padjur]

Planning and devising a strategy for your research is the most important part of civ gameplay, it might not be "realistic" but then, this is Civ and not a mirror image of reality.
Creating a new tech tree is, I think, the hardest thing to do.
Not because its in any way difficult in the XML but because of all the points raised so far and many more besides.
Creating a new, interesting, invigorating and balanced tech tree is a challenge,
it seems to me that the idea of randomising research paths is the easy way out of a difficult problem but one that does not in the end, achieve the desired outcome.

 

[Megatherion]

Well, it would defeat the purpose of a "tech tree," although it might not be a bad idea. But I'm confused about the details. How would you get agriculture? Position a worker over a food resource? What if you wanted to get BW and do an early rush? How would these techs just "happen?"

Besides, having random things happen in any strategy game is bad. Just look at Civ 5.

Now, I don't know about ciV, and of course, things just happening randomly is kinda stupid.
As I said, I really haven't fleshed that idea out. It's just something that came to mind when playing civ (any of them). I don't even know if this idea is practical in any way and much less do I know how to teach the AI using it. I thought about it for the reason voyhkah mentioned: You cannot set out to invent something, it more or less happens. Of course there are technologies that were invented on purpose, like coal liquefaction. Many, however, were found by chance.
How you would get the techs in game, I don't really know. You'd need a ton of events (but they don't seem to happen very often even when iWeight is very high). Triggers could be having a resource on a city plot, having a unit standing on a resource, buildings, amount of great people (engineers raising the chance of discovering more technical techs, great merchants for socio-economic techs, prophets for religious etc.)
Or you could make the events (triggered by one/some/ all of the above) unlock certain technologies that you can then research. Having researched one would raise the chance of unlocking another tech that is directly linked to the one you just discovered.

As for the "how would I rush BW" question. Well, you wouldn't. You would go to war/ prepare for a war by building a lot of units and trigger the discovery of militaristic technologies.

However, I did not really plan to implement that (I myself am too bad a programmer to do that anyway). I just mentioned it because the OP seemed to be dissatisfied with the tech tree and I've been having this chimaera for a long time.

 

[platyping]

In the ancient times, tech advances may be by chance, but as time progresses I doubt so.
Edison didn't do so many experiments on light bulbs without knowing what he is trying to achieve right?
I doubt he did so many tests and experiments thinking, something good will come out of these experiments, but I have no idea what is it...

Same for all those R&D departments in modern times now. All these R&D have specific goals what they want to achieve

 

[Megatherion]

In the ancient times, tech advances may be by chance, but as time progresses I doubt so.
Edison didn't do so many experiments on light bulbs without knowing what he is trying to achieve right?
I doubt he did so many tests and experiments thinking, something good will come out of these experiments, but I have no idea what is it...

Same for all those R&D departments in modern times now. All these R&D have specific goals what they want to achieve

You're right, I guess. So with time there could be more technologies that are just unlocked by inventing a required tech. Thus the tech tree would become more like we know it as time progresses. A key tech would be scientific method, probably, after the discovery of which research became more projectable.