Tech Tree

[xmen510]

I would do Mithril Smithing, as weapons and armor are a commodity instead. However I don't think we should limit Mithril to the dwarves. Or are you suggesting that Mithril (whatever) allows bonuses on top of the Mithril bonus

Mithril Working would perhaps only allow the Mining ability (bigger production bonus then Iron), but not give the bonuses / or maybe give smaller bonuses to units.

Then Mithril Smithing (Which sounds better by the way ), would add extra Bonuses for the Dwarves. They were the Mithril experts after all.

 

[Sengir]

I think I would have Mithril Smithing allow a Mithril Weaponsmith (or similar) building, which would give a free promo. That way we can have the 'regular' Mithril promo for everybody and an advanced mithril promo for the Dwarves (but only if they have built the building. I saw in the list with variables that it is also possible to have a building give a promo if a unit moves into a city with that building, making it not necessary to have that building in all your cities.)

 

[xmen510]

Oh! That sounds like a great idea. It could allow 2 Expensive (National Wonders, this way you can only have 1 of each) Buildings to be built. 1 For a Defence Bonus and 1 For an Attack Bonus:

Mithril Weaponsmith (Building / National Wonder)
Mithril Armorer (Building / National Wonder)

 

[xmen510]

Just a few more ideas!

Elves:

Forest Preservation (don't like the name): Allows only elves to build the Forest Preserve Improvemnt.

Elven Jewel Crafting: Jeweler Building; +25% Commerce, +1 Production (something like that)

Isengard:

Industry: Saruman's Industry (National Wonder); +25% Production in the City it is built, +1 Unhealthyness.

Uruk Breeding: Uruk Units: +10% attack vs. Rohirrim units

Mordor/Angband/Angmar: Elven Corruption: Required to build Orc Units. All Orc Units have +10% attack vs. Elves (Quenya).

 

[Berenthor]

I like a lot of these ideas, especially the unique techs for civs or groups of civs. I will see if I can find out if this is already possible in the FFH2 framework or if we have to do it another way. I know techs can be restricted to allignment but per civ I'lll try to find out.
The extra bonus with mithril with a national wonder is great . The other ideas from xmen510: I like them although for the elves we have to see if we want this because if we also go for the FFH2 version of the elves (they can build improvements in forests without chopping them e.a. mine in a forest or cottage etc) than maybe this is already a big enough bonus.

 

[xmen510]

Oh yeah, I forgot about that ability of the Elves. Thanks for the reminder Berenthor!

 

[T_F]

The jewelcrafting building should be a Noldor (maybe just Fëanorian) UB I think, not for all Elves. And we can test it, but being able to build and leave forests may be quite an advantage.

And you can restrict techs by alignment I think, but I know you can restrict them by at least state religion - FFH does.

 

[xmen510]

That would be good to. Perhaps 1 or 2 for each Religion.

 

[Berenthor]

You can restrict techs by religion and allignment in FFH2 for sure. I have to see if by civ or group of civs is also possible. I think it is possible since the Lanun have an extra tech to start with that the rest can not research, but I'm not sure how this is implemented. I have a feeling this only works because it is given at startup and that the tech is just non-researchable. This is not what we want. I'll look into this as soon as I can.

 

[Sengir]

You can restrict techs by religion and allignment in FFH2 for sure. I have to see if by civ or group of civs is also possible. I think it is possible since the Lanun have an extra tech to start with that the rest can not research, but I'm not sure how this is implemented. I have a feeling this only works because it is given at startup and that the tech is just non-researchable. This is not what we want. I'll look into this as soon as I can.

If nothing else, it can be made to work as we want, just have a civ-specific tech given to each civ at the start of the game which is required for researching the other civ-specific techs. Not the best solution, but it will work.

 

[Berenthor]

Yeah that is true. Maybe not the most elegant solution but definetely a good one. On the other hand this may actually be the best and fastest solution to try. Some techs can than also be given to more civs.

 

[xmen510]

Indeed. We can always make a better system for a later release.

 

[Sengir]

I also found this little gem in the xml files. It's not in use atm as far as I can tell, but we can use it to disable techs for some civs and leave them open for others (at least that's what I think it does, it isn't from FFH however, but from BtS, so I could find it in the modders guide. I'm reasonably sure about it though).

<DisableTechs>
</DisableTechs>

 

[Berenthor]

Cool, I didn't know that was there. That should make life sooooo much easier. Great find .

 

[xmen510]

Alright. Lets try to organize this a bit. Everyone go back over your recent posts regarding the inclusion of Racial/Civ based and Alignment based Techs. After you have done this, then organize your suggestions like so:

Core Tech Tree:

-
-
-

Race/Civ Techs:

- Dwarven: Longbeards: Shaft Mining, Mithril Smithing
- Dwarven: Broadbeams & Firebeards: Expert Mining
- Quendi: Noldor: House of Feanor: Gem Cutting
- Quendi: Noldor: House of Fingolfin: Leadership
- Quendi: Vanyar: Ancient Lore (the only universities available?)
- Quendi: Teleri: Great Travels
- Quendi: Sindarin: Nature Empathy
- Angband: Elven Corruption
- Mordor: Desert Survival
- Angmar: Coruption of the Dead (Barrow-Wights)
- Isengard: Industry, Uruk Breeding
- Rohirrim: Culture of Horses/Horseback Culture
- Dunlendings: Survival
- Haradrim: Mumakil Training, Pirating?
- Easterling: Charioteering
- Numenor: Mariner Traditions
- Gondor: Advanced Construction
- Arnor: Watchtower Fortification
- Northmen:

Alignment Techs:

- Evil: Slavery
- Neutral: Cultural Tolerance
- Good:

Religious Techs: - requires correct Alignment/Race/Civ

- Good: Light of Aman
- Dwarves: Teachings of Aulë
- Neutral: Guidance of the Valar
- Shadow: Corruption of Melkor

This way we can start going over suggestions and start figuring out where in the Tech Tree we will have to implement this stuff. We have the Core Tech Tree fairly done now, however, if you have further suggestions then apply as above.

We will then make a finalized version of the Tech Tree and start applying the Bonuses, Units, Buildings, etc. to them.

Thanks.

I have included the Dwarven: Mithril Smithing Tech discussed earlier and my own suggestions as examples.

EDIT: forgot the word techs for religious.

 

[T_F]

My suggestions:

Core Tech Tree: fine as it stands

Race/Civ Techs:

- Khuzdul: Longbeards: something with mining, agreed on needing mithril-working
- Khuzdul: Broadbeams & Firebeards: some mining thing, but enough to be equal to the Longbeards
- Quendi: Noldor: House of Feanor: something jewel-making, or maybe metalworking
- Quendi: Noldor: House of Fingolfin: something involving metalworking
- Quendi: Vanyar: some sort of tech either scientific or magic-y
- Quendi: Teleri: something involving improved ships
- Quendi: Sindarin: something involving forests - improved yields from forest tiles?
- Angband: corrupting the Elves sounds OK, though something else might present itself as equally relevant (possibly something with orc-spawning)
- Mordor: something to improve the usefulness of Hell-equivalent tiles (or whatever), though Angband could use that too
- Angmar: ?
- Isengard: something with industry definitely, uruks could also easily be a separate late-game tech
- Rohirrim: improved horsemen
- Dunlendings: ?
- Haradrim: either improved (or enabled) Mûmakil or improved desert yields
- Easterling: ?
- Numenor: something involving seafaring also, quite possibly identical or very similar to the Telerin one
- Gondor: construction sounds good
- Arnor: something with archery/rangers? something totally different?
- Northmen: ?

Alignment Techs:

- Evil: Slavery, maybe some other stuff involving improved relations/coordination with Angband/Mordor
- Neutral: --------------- (don't have anything, we want polarization)
- Good: Alliance against Morgoth? (i.e. something that lets good civs act like a team when it comes to fighting evil civs, or something to that effect)

Religious: - requires correct Alignment/Race/Civ

- Good: Light of Aman or something
- Dwarves: Teachings of Aulë or something, Light of Aman should also be possible
- Neutral: --------- (once again, shouldn't have anything)
- Evil Men: Worship of Morgoth
- Shadow: ? (seems like it should be different from the Men one somehow)

 

[xmen510]

I edited the post of mine by adding teh word Techs to the religious category. Good ideas you have T F.

 

[Sengir]

I would go either Shift/Slope/Shaft mining for Longbeards (depending on which type of mining we deem more appropriate for Mithril minig); keep Mithril Smithing. Expert mining for other dwarves is fine.

For Fëanor, maybe Gemcutting is more appropriate (I some how dislike the 'elven' part in a tech name, and Jewelry Crafting might be to close to Jewelry)
I like Leadership for Fingolfin, other Quendi are good as well.

Maybe change Industry for Isengard to Industrialisation? That might sound a bit to modern though

We might want a naval tech for Haradrim as well, them having corsairs and all that.
The rest looks good, can't think of anything else atm.

 

[xmen510]

Darn. It didn't take.

Again. I agree with your "Elven" comment. I updated Feanor with Gemcutting. Not sure what we could rename Industry (agree wthat Industralization sounds too modern).

I put down Pirating for Haradrim. Maybe it gives them a "Corasir Unit" that is slightly faster than other ships, but has the First stike promotion.

I am not all that familiar with mining techniques. The Rise of Mankind Mod has implemented a Shaft Mine. I think a regular mine automatically uprades after a while like a town. Perhaps we could use this for Dwarves/Longbeards.

 

[Berenthor]

Looks good right now I think. I liked the ranger suggestion for arnor but the watchtower thing is also pretty cool.