Technology in cities

[HorseshoeHermit]

What if technology was not an attribute of players (civs) but of cities? Then, a city is a thing that has the different tech bubbles achieved or not achieved.

I got the idea while reflecting on the shortcoming discussed in this reddit thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/civ/comments/1dha0lp/i_hate_it_when_the_civilization_i_restored_does

When you restore a dead player, the player's technology reverts to its last known level, which is incongruous with the idea that the liberated city was living with access to its occupier's technology level just before. If the city itself had a technology vector, then the change of rule would straightforwardly not affect its technological level; it could even leapfrog into technological progress becoming shared now with the differently-aligned cities nearby.

There are some previously published thoughts that this idea is connected to. One is the idea of technology being an outgrowth of player actions (Civ actions), so that technological development immediately reflects the "problems" that a civ faces and the activities associated with its simulated population. I just want to say that while that idea is cool, the implementation of my idea is not necessarily tied to endorsing that other idea wholesale.

Another place to visit for thoughts on technology is this thread (which is older than 12 months so posting there may be a necro): https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/shared-technology-system.678425/

The idea of individual cities having a technology point has an interplay with concepts discussed previously about both "tech diffusion" as a desired mechanic, and the more broad dynamic of cities influencing each other through 'connectedness'. ("Connectedness" is something that could reflect the combined impact of sharing a river route, sharing a paved road, sharing a rail connection, or any other discrete advance available in the game, in addition to tile-distance as a base.) It occurred to me that, there was surely some way that a player could select their technological pursuits in the familiar way, but this would arise as the communication of technological know-how within cities each turn. Cities would have their research output, would build on their own technology level, but could receive tech progress (beakers) from intercourse with connected cities. The contributing cities would organically compose cities of the same culture but also the nearby cities of other civilizations who would be 'diffusing' their current tech level and even their current research item. Modifiers could exist for connectedness in the familiar aspects: shared religion, cultural pressure, ideology, "has a radio tower", "has the internet", etc.

I think it's an idea with a lot of upside and despite its irregularity it does not have to (if we don't want it to) change the overall trajectory and rhythm of tech progress as a factor in gameplay and progression. You would still click the tech you want, develop it, and then proceed to enhance your cities with the unlocks of those techs; I just envision technology taking some time to spread from city to city, and a change to how beakers are aggregated by multiple distinct cities generating research for your civ. This change enfolds automatically an enhanced simulation of technological diffusion between civs, and allows for interaction with the conquest action where technology is brought to a city by occupiers, in even the normal case as well as the exceptional one from my inspiration.

This is a request for comments.

 

[GeneralZift]

Sounds like it could be inconvenient to be honest. But other than that, it could be a good idea.


Edit: You're taking away a bit of agency from the player. "What do you mean I can't use the Wheel in this city? I just discovered it?? Now I have to wait for it to spread to my other cities?"

The player has no direct agency in which cities get the technology, I presume... It sounds like a slightly convoluted solution to your simple problem - which could be fixed by having the Reborn city take an average of nearby cities.

 

[Naokaukodem]

("Connectedness" is something that could reflect the combined impact of sharing a river route, sharing a paved road, sharing a rail connection, or any other discrete advance available in the game, in addition to tile-distance as a base.)

Not to forget about in-between lands permeability : grassland without roads being the highest one before invention of sailing (then water bodies are the best), and mountains and all impassable terrain being the lowest before a mean to pass them is discovered (tunels, astronomy/cartography, with maybe a minus on both as the Alpes never prevented Rome to conquer the world - impassable mountains with 1UPT, very good indeed ) and oceans never prevented Homo Sapiens to colonize the whole globe : what I'm saying is that at worst, there would be low permeability but not eternal/impossible)

It sounds like a slightly convoluted solution to your simple problem

IMHO, good ideas always come from a simple problem by convoluted routes. To begin with, it's not even Horseshoehermit's problem, it's the one of this guy on reddit. It's simply a starting thread to go further.

As to player agency, I could see several solutions : manual spread through governors or envoys, which could be annoying with a lot of cities, trade routes between cities, which would increase dramatically the speed of diffusion, or simply : research the same tech in multiple cities, as a torned choice that the devs seem to love since Civ5. Any other ?

 

[GeneralZift]

So the same systems that players have been hating for years? Having to move around governors, change trade routes, mess around with different city research trees, it sounds like a micro management nightmare...

IMHO, good ideas always come from a simple problem by convoluted routes

Rant; this must be some kind of fallacy (no offense I just seen this elsewhere too). Sometimes things work the way they do in a lot of different things, and they don't need duct tape attachments everywhere, ya know?

 

[Naokaukodem]

So the same systems that players have been hating for years? Having to move around governors

Having to move around governors is indeed a chore to me because they have likely disconnected abilities that needs too much micro-thinking for just this. (and a number of times impossible, like ubiquity) It would be much more convenient if all governors had the same abilities, even if you have to choose them in some tree.

change trade routes

That one doesn't annoy me that much... but i have to admit that sometimes i have troubles to find the "repeat trade route" button. (because it vanished most probably, until I find manually the right one)

mess around with different city research trees

I have to confess that it would be yet another nightmare with all the stuff Civ6 has. But if it could make research faster I would take it I suppose.

Sometimes things work the way they do in a lot of different things, and they don't need duct tape attachments everywhere, ya know?

The good american way of thinking ! No need to wiggle your a** to s*** straight ! It has its form of wisdom. But only for biologically acquired capacities, like sleeping, eating, talking even. Thinking... is quite put in the middle of the None. So it needs some kind of attach, beginning by the world that surrounds us. Even Bouddha, that wanted to go back to None to not suffer anymore, had to witness misery with its eyes.

 

[Evie]

A system that delays when cities gets technology based on complex spread mechanisms is unlikely to be well received, for good reasons. From a player perspective, such a system is essentially all-negatives:
1. It delays when they can use a newly discovered tech in a key city.
2. Moreover, it creates significant additional information to remember when deciding strategy ("Wait, does this city have the right technology or not?")

The caveat about spreading technologies through conquest is somewhat interesting, but does not actually require the rest of this system (as tech-through-conquest has been a standard feature of multiple past iterations of civ).

Simulation that's all downside and present no interesting choices is simulation that has no in-game value.

So the question then become: how do we create upside and interesting choices *for the player* to this mechanism, so that it's worth the inconvenience of added delays and bookkeeping? And subsidiarily, how do we reduce that inconvenience?

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Most importantly, there's no reason for an 'extra' spread mechanic within Civs, because there is no evidence that such delays occured IRL except those caused by sheer Travel Time - and none of those much exceeded the Turn Time in the game. For two examples:

The Quadrireme was invented in Carthage around 350 BCE, and by 332 BCE was used by Alexander at the Siege of Tyre and Athens was making plans to build 200 of them. In other words, it spread clear across the Mediterranean in a little over 1 turn in the Classical Era.

Gutenberg perfected the combination of metal individual type, specially-formulated oil-based ink, and modifies a wine-press into a type/print press and perfects Printing in 1450 CE in Germany. The dates when other cities besides Mainz, Germany got presses:
Cologne - 1466
Rome - 1467
Venice - 1469
Paris - 1470
Buda - 1473
Krakov - 1473
London 1477
Within 30 years (6 Renaissance turns in Civ VI) after the publication of Gutenberg's Bible, the Netherlands had printing shops in 21 cities and towns, Germany and Italy each had them in 40 cities and towns.
By 1500 over 2800 titles had been published in Venice alone, and there were printing presses in every country in Europe west of Russia. In game turns, that's 10 turns in the Renaissance, so the technology spread at the rate of better than 1 country per turn.

And needless to say, the fact that London had a printing press and the technology did NOT mean that Oxford didn't have Printed Books!

Rather than an artificial mechanism to limit the spread of technology within a Civ, the game needs a mechanic to model the spread of technology between Civs (and City States and potentially other on-map Non-Playable Entities), and possibly, if a limiting factor is needed, the difference between having knowledge of a Technology and being able to put it to satisfactory use - the classic example being the Wheel, which is a rather simple geometry that does you no good if you have no way to saw smooth circles in wood or draft animals big enough to move wheeled vehicles.