Technology tree in VP needs redesign

[Gazebo]

I think that fundamentally, the point of the tech tree is to create trade offs. Wouldn't it be really boring if there was a clear warmonger path with all of the tools a warmonger needed?


I don't think they are a problem. I would move colonists though.

>The only part of the tech tree I would look at changing at all is the very late techs.

>I don't think they are a problem.

?



G

 

[CrazyG]

>The only part of the tech tree I would look at changing at all is the very late techs.

>I don't think they are a problem.

I meant that if someone wanted to change a very, very late tech, its a worthwhile conversation and we should be open to it. Such as the colonist discussion from another thread. I'm not aware of any glaring issues in the late game though.

But when someone suggests redesigning the entire thing, or changing early or mid techs like civil service, I barely even look at the suggesiton. Ancient/Classical/Medieval/Renaissance and Industrial techs are all very, very balanced.

 

[CppMaster]

My only concern about very late techs is very limited usage of very late game units like Stealth Bombers, X-Coms, Jet-Fighters and Giant Death Robots, but others didn't care about it, so it stayed.

 

[Leondegrance]

Wouldn't it be really boring if there was a clear warmonger path with all of the tools a warmonger needed?

Domination victory is currently the most difficult victory. When did you last had Domination Victory ? In fact when did anyone here had Domination Victory ?

 

[CrazyG]

Domination victory is currently the most difficult victory. When did you last had Domination Victory ? In fact when did anyone here had Domination Victory ?

Warmonger does not mean domination victory. I have a feeling that you assume everyone else is also playing on the 43 civs version, where a formal domination victory is very difficult.

 

[Leondegrance]

Warmonger does not mean domination victory. I have a feeling that you assume everyone else is also playing on the 43 civs version, where a formal domination victory is very difficult.

I find it theoretically impossible to have Domination Victory in 43. Due to severe war weariness penalties, unit cap, city defenses are high and take time to reduce them to zero. There is just not enough time and the other 3 victories will trigger before.

Maybe the requirement in 43 is too severe ans could be reduced to, for example, 1/2 of the starting capitals. Or alternatively, a new system which gives points for every city conquered and once the score reaches a certain value then Domination Victory should be declared.

 

[Gazebo]

My only concern about very late techs is very limited usage of very late game units like Stealth Bombers, X-Coms, Jet-Fighters and Giant Death Robots, but others didn't care about it, so it stayed.

There’s just very little we can do about it because of the logical unlock points of units versus the unlock points of end-game victory stuff. It’s just the nature of the beast. I guess we could pad it out with some filler future techs for the SS parts and move the Diplo/Culture triggers back further, but...well...

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[Gazebo]

I find it theoretically impossible to have Domination Victory in 43. Due to severe war weariness penalties, unit cap, city defenses are high and take time to reduce them to zero. There is just not enough time and the other 3 victories will trigger before.

Maybe the requirement in 43 is too severe ans could be reduced to, for example, 1/2 of the starting capitals. Or alternatively, a new system which gives points for every city conquered and once the score reaches a certain value then Domination Victory should be declared.

43civ is a scenario, like OCC, that I’m not going to balance or design around.

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[CrazyG]

I find it theoretically impossible to have Domination Victory in 43. Due to severe war weariness penalties, unit cap, city defenses are high and take time to reduce them to zero. There is just not enough time and the other 3 victories will trigger before.

Maybe the requirement in 43 is too severe ans could be reduced to, for example, 1/2 of the starting capitals. Or alternatively, a new system which gives points for every city conquered and once the score reaches a certain value then Domination Victory should be declared.

So we destroy the balance on a map with 8 civs in order to balance the 43 civ version, even though far more people play with 8 civs.

What if you conquer neighbors to increase your own power, then win via culture/science/diplomacy. Which is what the players who actually win their games often do.

 

[Leondegrance]

So we destroy the balance on a map with 8 civs in order to balance the 43 civ version, even though far more people play with 8 civs.

What if you conquer neighbors to increase your own power, then win via culture/science/diplomacy. Which is what the players who actually win their games often do.

Don't play 10 games but suspect that Domination is very hard there too. Do you achieve Domination there ?

 

[CrazyG]

Don't play 10 games but suspect that Domination is very hard there too. Do you achieve Domination there ?

Yes

 

[CppMaster]

There’s just very little we can do about it because of the logical unlock points of units versus the unlock points of end-game victory stuff. It’s just the nature of the beast. I guess we could pad it out with some filler future techs for the SS parts and move the Diplo/Culture triggers back further, but...well...

Yep, I don't have a good solution for this either, because I don't think that messing too much with other victory conditions is worth it. It's just bothers me a little, but I could always play Domination only, or ignore victory screen and continue playing, so it's not nearly game-breaking.

Maybe the requirement in 43 is too severe ans could be reduced to, for example, 1/2 of the starting capitals. Or alternatively, a new system which gives points for every city conquered and once the score reaches a certain value then Domination Victory should be declared.

You can always just assume that you've won when you capture half of the capitals. You don't need victory screen for that.

Don't play 10 games but suspect that Domination is very hard there too. Do you achieve Domination there ?

Sure. It's usually the quickest victory condition that can happen era or two before others.

 

[Leondegrance]

Yes

Have you done it with 22 Civs as well ? Just curious.

Something dubious is starting to emerge on the surface recently with Vox Populi. It appears from different comments that the game is very poorly balanced for Civs over 10 in a game. For anything different than so-called standard conditions, like pangea, 8-10 Civ, standard speed.

I hope I am wrong, but if that is even remotely true, then VP went in the wrong direction.

 

[CrazyG]

Have you done it with 22 Civs as well ? Just curious.

Nope. I think you have some options here. You can go make a mod that balances 22 civ games.
You can play a 22 civ VP games, and accept balance isn't perfect.
You can play a game with fewer civs.

 

[Leondegrance]

Nope. I think you have some options here. You can go make a mod that balances 22 civ games.
You can play a 22 civ VP games, and accept balance isn't perfect.
You can play a game with fewer civs.

By the way I have won games on 43. They are not broken.

The domination victory though is broken imo

 

[Gazebo]

Have you done it with 22 Civs as well ? Just curious.

Something dubious is starting to emerge on the surface recently with Vox Populi. It appears from different comments that the game is very poorly balanced for Civs over 10 in a game. For anything different than so-called standard conditions, like pangea, 8-10 Civ, standard speed.

I hope I am wrong, but if that is even remotely true, then VP went in the wrong direction.

What, the game isn’t balanced around its extremes?! Brb deleting the mod.

G

 

[Leondegrance]

What, the game isn’t balanced around its extremes?! Brb deleting the mod.

G

No need for extreme actions. Very few important things are left to complete really (the rest is fine on all game types)

1. Do something with Domination Victory
2. "Break out" the Tech Tree

 

[CppMaster]

Something dubious is starting to emerge on the surface recently with Vox Populi. It appears from different comments that the game is very poorly balanced for Civs over 10 in a game. For anything different than so-called standard conditions, like pangea, 8-10 Civ, standard speed.

It's known that the game is balanced for 8 Civs on standard size and speed. The more you alter game setting, the more it may become unbalanced. That should be an obvious conclusion.

By the way I have won games on 43. They are not broken.
The domination victory though is broken imo

Yes, domination victory with 43 civs is harder, and with 2 civs is easier. Do you really find it strange?

No need for extreme actions. Very few important things are left to complete really (the rest is fine on all game types)

1. Do something with Domination Victory
2. "Break out" the Tech Tree

It's a pretty big change, though, and not many members here are interested in 43 civs games. A mod mod that is balanced around these settings would be a good solution.

 

[Gazebo]

No need for extreme actions. Very few important things are left to complete really (the rest is fine on all game types)

1. Do something with Domination Victory
2. "Break out" the Tech Tree

Lol. Do something! Break out! Those are buzzwords.

The tech tree is fine, and domination is perfectly reachable on all but extreme settings.

G

 

[tu_79]

Domination victory is currently the most difficult victory. When did you last had Domination Victory ? In fact when did anyone here had Domination Victory ?

I played Denmark, King, in October, I think (5 games ago). Domination victory pretty fast. Around turn 280, IIRC. It was exhausting (long turns moving units), but not especially difficult.

About original post, we're in the final stage, so it's no time for a redesign. Maybe once VP golden is released we could start working on VP2, the final headache. Or maybe someone will make a modmod with a redesigned tech tree. Even minor tweaks in late game, as CrazyG suggested, should be treated very carefully. It's true that info age technologies feel ... uncomfortable. There's no flow. But it hardly matters, since only civs going for SV even finish it, and scientific civs just rush trough the age. My gripe is that I can't remember the last time I saw a giant robot on the field. You may upgrade a tank if you happen to have uranium, but usually it's too late for making use of it. Nukes seem to be more common, though.