Techs & WH History & Religions etc.

[Ploeperpengel]

I think we need another new approach to techs and how we want them to represent the scale of WH history in the mod.

The ancient era seriously lacks design and that's mainly because we didn't think enough about the timescale we chose for the mod imo. Where should this mod really start? in the stoneage or not better a little later?

Things I'm not happy with:
-Religions should enter the mod earlier
-ancient era is lacking cultural advances, maybe we should take some techs from the age of magic and transfer them here
-as said WH-history isnt reflected correctly-problem is we have many civs that have their golden ages in different eras - how to find an elegant solution for this?

First we should discuss the timescale. Where do you think the ancient era should start here?

* -15000 to -5590

* The Old Ones flourished in Lustria Spawning of Slann, Saurus, Skinks and Kroxigor. Founding of first pyramid cities. Creation of the World Pond and the separation of continents. (L) -5600

* Chaos (C) -5589 to -4420

* Collapse of the polar warp gates. The Old Ones perish. Many cities fall into ruins. Oldest of the Slann also perish. Lizardman armies prevail over daemonic hordes. (L) -4920

* Chaos (C) -4920

* Aenarion passes through the sacred flame and then defends the Shrine of Asuryan against the Chaos Horde of Morkar. (HE) -4909

* Aenarion arrives in Caledor and is recognized as the chosen of Asuryan by Caledor Dragontamer. The great dragon Indaugnir becomes Aenarion's steed. They fly to Vaul's Anvil where the Dragon Armour of Aenarion is forged along with many weapons that will eventually become heirlooms of the great Elf noble families. Technically, the rank of Prince in present day Ulthuan belongs to anyone who can show possession of one of the ancient weapons. (HE) -4904

* The war against Chaos begins in earnest as the Elf Dragonriders descend from Caledor and take the fight to the enemy. (HE) -4761

* The forces of Chaos are driven back for a time and a fragile peace descends on Ulthuan. Aenarion marries the Everqueen Astarielle and two children, Yvraine and Morelion are born to them. (HE) -4713 (Note 1)

* Aenarion rescues the witch Morathi from a Slaaneshi warband. They make court in Nagarythe. (HE) -4707

* Caledor Dragontamer concludes that the only way to stop Chaos is to drain the winds of magic from the world. He starts repairing and expanding the ancient network of standing stones which has stood upon Ulthuan since the dawn of time. (HE) -4458 (Note 1)

* Morathi bears Aenarion a child, Malekith, the future Witch King of Naggaroth. (HE) -4500 (Note 1)

* The Battle of the Isle of the Dead. At this epic battle Caledor Dragontamer creates the magical Vortex. Aenarion suffers a mortal wound and as his last act flies to the Blighted Isle and drives the Sword of Khaine back into the alter. Aenarion's body is never found. (HE) before -4500

* The Time of the Ancestor Gods. No written records of these times survive but legend relates that the Dwarfs began their slow consolidation of the Worlds Edge Mountains about Imperial year -5000. This age came to a close with the coming of Chaos, the disappearance of the Ancestor Gods Grimnir into the Chaos Wastes, and the disappearance of the other Ancestor Gods shortly afterwards. Dwarf tradition holds that Grimnir closed the mighty Chaos Gate after battling with the Chaos Gods thereby saving the world from certain doom. Shortly before Grimnir's disappearance the Dwarfs and High Elves meet for the first time, and friendly relations are established between the two races. (D) -4500

* The time of the Ancestor Gods. No written records of these times survive although legend tells of the gradual colonization of the Worlds Edge Mountains. (CD) -4461 (Note 1)

* Aenarion rescues the witch Morathi from a Slaaneshi warband. They make court in Nagarythe. (DE) -4458 (Note 1)

* Morathi bears Aenarion a child, Malekith, the future Witch King of Naggaroth. (DE) -4419

* First High Elf explorers penetrate Lustrian jungles. (L) -4419

* The coronation of Bel Shannaar marks the end of the war whit Chaos and the start of the great period of rebuilding that sees the rise of Tiranoc to pre-eminence among the Elf realms. (HE) -4419 (Note 1)

* Aenarion is slain at the Battle of the Isle of the Dead. Malekith is passed over as the new Phoenix King and Bel-Shannaar is crown in his place. (DE) -4300

* The most adventurous Dwarfs journey across the barren upland region north of the Worlds Edge Mountains which they name 'Zorn Uzkul' (or the Great Skull Land) in the plain of Zharr. (CD) -4164

* The foundations of the first colonies in the New World on the east coast. Malekith defeats the Orc warlord Gritok Redfang and saves the city of Athel Toralien. (HE), (DE) -4119

* In this year Malekith of the High Elves and Snorri Whitebeard the High King of the Dwarfs combined their mighty armies and finally drove out the last remnants of Chaos from the Old World. Afterwards trade between Dwarfs and Elves flourished and the Dwarfs founded many new strongholds. (D) -4119

* The elves land in the Old World. Malekith befriends the Dwarf King Snorri Whitebeard and together the armies of Dwarfs and ELves begging to drive the remnants of Chaos from the lands. As the colonies prosper wealth begins to flow back to Ulthuan. (HE) -3500

* Abandoned by their gods, Dwarfs of the Dark Lands turn to the worship of the evil god Hashut, the Father of Darkness. (CD) -3418

* The Cult of Pleasure begins its slow spread through Nagarythe and across all Ulthuan. (HE) -2839

* The High Elf Phoenix King Bel-Shannaar visits the newly founded Dwarf stronghold of Karaz-a-Karak where he is made welcome by the aged but venerable Snorri Whitebeard. The two great kings swear an oath of friendship, and Malekith remains in Karaz-a-Karak as his King's ambassador. For awhile Elves and Dwarfs prosper, until the Elves are draw back to Ulthuan where civil strife is tearing their land apart. (D) -2839

* Bel-Shannaar himself visits the newly founded Dwarf stronghold of Karaz-a-Karak and signs the pledge of eternal friendship between Dwarfs and Elves. Malekith stays on as ambassador and remains on friendly terms with the Dwarf Kings. (HE) -2798

* Malekith begins his great period of wandering around the world in search of magical artifacts of elder times. In the northern wastelands Malekith finds the Circlet of Iron in the ancient ruined city of Vorshgar. (DE) -2788

* Malekith begins his great period of wandering around the world in search of magical artifacts of elder times. (HE) -2774

* In the northern wastelands Malekith finds the Circlet of Iron in the ancient ruined city of Vorshgar. (HE) -2774

* Malekith returns to Ulthuan and denounces his own mother as a lackey of the Chaos gods and a traitor to the kindred Elves. (DE) -2774

* Malekith returns to Ulthuan and denounces his own mother as a Slaanesh worshiper. The Cult of Pleasure is revealed as being secretly given over to the worship of Slaanesh. (HE) -2750 to -2751

* The massacre at the shrine of Asuryan. Bel Shannaar assassinated. Malekth is burned by the sacred flame and horribly mutilated. Later that year his assassins try to kill the future Phoenix King Caledor I who is rescued by a band of Chracian hunters, the ancestors of the White Lions.(HE) Civil war erupts across all Uthuan.(DE) -2749

* Coronation of Caledor. Malekith flees to Nagaryth. Civil war erupts across all Uthuan. Brother turns against brother as the devotees of the Cult of Pleasure stir up trouble in every city and town. (HE) -2739

* The renegade wizard princes flees Saphery and join Malekith. Hotek, a heretic priest of Vaul, steals the sacred hammer from Vaul's Anvil and makes his way to Nagaryth. (DE) -2736

* Malekith is sealed within his black armour and is hailed as the Witch King. The intensity of the war increases. (DE,HE) -2724

* Caledor defeats the Witch King at the Battle of Maledor. The Witch King flees and decides to implement his master plan. (DE,HE) -2723

* The Sundering. As a result of the Witch King's interference with the vortex that contains the Real of Chaos much of the northern Ulthuan is sunk. The renagade wizards raise the feares Black Arks and depart to the cold north to found the Dark Elf kingdom of Naggaroth. There is little the High Elves can do to stop them at this point. Tiranoc is lost beneath the waves and the cataclysmic unleasing of energies devestates the land. The Elves begin to rebuild thier shattered land. Contact is lost with the Old world colonies. (DE,HE) -2700

* Legend tell how the mighty ziggurat, Mingol Zharr-Naggrund (lit. The Great City of Fire and Desolation) was raised from dark iron and black obsidian by the most powerful Chaos Dwarf Sorcerers. (CD) -2630

* A Dark Elf expedition returns to Ulthuan and hostilities resume. Caledor reorganises the High Elf army for defence and begins the building of the Gateway Fortress in the norther passes. (DE,HE) -2600

* Enslavement of Orc and Goblin tribes throughout the Dark Lands and Mountains of Mourn. (CD) -2599

* Griffon Gate, the Unconquered Fortress, is finally copleated. It is the first of a series of massive strongholds that will eventually gaurd the approaches to the Inner Lands. The war rages on unabated as the Dark Elves seek to gain access to the Inner Lands and conquer the Holy Shrines. The High Elves resist them. (DE,HE) -2500

The rise of Nehekhara, the first true human civilsation. Upon thier death, thePriest King rulers are mummified and entombed in great pyramids. Those clusters of tombs and pyramids are called necropolises. (Un)

 

[Arexack_heretic]

trouble with the warhammer history is that it is cylical and not linear as civ-history tends to be.
Technologies are gained and lost, civilizations crumble and new ones appear from nothing and rise to be their rivals.
It's very difficult to fit this into a whole.

-maybe limit civ choices to various eras?
Allow only ancient races to start in the Ancient Era.
Problem is then, that when starting in the Age of Magic, the ancient races will have the basic techs that humans/orcs still need to invent.
I don't think that this will work or be nice to play.

-I'd say start well after the collapse of the warpgates, maybe even after the fall of Nehekhara.

-Although it makes no [historical] sense to have darkelves before the chism, that didn't stop Sid from having frenchmen and americans in the stoneage.

-Whose stone age were you refering to? In warhammer every Era has it's stoneage for the next crop of races. difficult. Poor mod-boss.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

mmm, i think you have hit the nail on the head ploe this is exactly what needs a reform.

I like the idea of starting with the oldones entering the world, but, like you said, there isnt mush we can do with that.

i think, perhaps, we could start the mod at the rise of man. you know, it started out with nehekara, and then later on the brettonians became a nation, and the empire became, well, and empire , and kislev and estalia and tilia were developing better. that could have promise.

However, i still like the idea of starting with the slann. although, i really dont mind i will think about this some more.

 

[Ploeperpengel]

I would ratherhave it start at the death of the old ones. Maybe have something like.
Age 1 : Chaos and evil starts to flourish as the power of the old ones is removed. Only the very most primitive technologies.

Age 2 : The elves and dwarfs gain their full strength and then slowly weaken as they fight each other. Technologies similar to late ancient and very early classical.

Age 3 : Sigmar is born! The power of man starts to rise. Medium and late classical technologies.

Age 4: The world starts to become techonological. Gunpowder is discovered and so are the lands of Lustria (don't know if this really happened at the same time). The last classical technologies and most meidieval technologies.

The events I have given are meant to be the start of those ages. I would make the ages progressively longer. So in a 400 turn game it should be roughly distributed; 50, 80, 110, 160.

How do you think it could work to have Elves and Dwarves at their full strength and later diminished? Do you think about a dynamic rise and fall of civs?

 

[Ploeperpengel]

You could just give elves and dwarfs amazing UUs and UBs in the 2nd age, and then give them weaker UUs/UBs as time progress's.

Maybe we can give some civs an earlier acces to techs like Literature(i.e. Highelves) and make their ancient units more "civilized", strong and expensive then. But also we would have to take into account that dwarves i.e. have many units that perfectly fit into the mechanical age but don't have much magic. This will be really complicated so more concrete suggestions for this anyone?

About the timetable I still have the issue with Religion. If we start after the collapsing of the warpgates some Religions should have been founded already, right? So how to find a good compromise for that? Religions should get founded in the game not before the start.

 

[Arexack_heretic]

having later units less powerfull would work for AI's, but doesn't work for human players: they would just stop researching. Unless there is a major incentive, like increased vulnerability to magic or something.

I feel religion and magic are intertwined in WH.

 

[Ploeperpengel]

having later units less powerfull would work for AI's, but doesn't work for human players: they would just stop researching. Unless there is a major incentive, like increased vulnerability to magic or something.

Yes that's true but we can make ancient units a little more powerful compared to other ancient units and late units a little less powerful to compared to other late units. Anyway I'm still not sure of that either. It simply won't work well with the dwarves at least

 

[Arexack_heretic]

How about creating the dwarf/elven early superiority by making their tech development far faster than humans/orcs?
At the same time restraining their long-term success by depricating their growth.

Humans would eventually get even in technological terms when their numbers start to add up.

I agree, Religions need to be in competition more, this means they should be developped earlier.
Maybe each race should develop its specific religion, before it can develop it's civics (or magic/special units) more?
If we build in a bottleneck where all each race needs a religion, even the AI should resaearch it... eventually.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

well, i dont particularly like the idea of fiddling with units. thats not the problem. its the techs and religions.

If we structure it something like this:

We start at the birth of the old ones, the infancy of the elves and dwarves, and the rise of the lizardmen. Humans are but a race or neanderthalic barbarians, with little technology. at this stage we can found the Old Ones Religion. we can give each ancient race (ie Lizardmen, elves and dwarves) a special tech that they start with, we'll call it "Words of the Ancients" this tech will give them the ability to build a special building in each city, well call them "The Archives" these buildings partially increase the tech rate of these civs, but they become obsoeate after some future tech (i cant think of one at the moment) the young civs (humans, orcs, goblins, ogres, oriental civs, etc.) can start with a tech, we'll call it "barbaric" (which will make the civ at peace with barbarians until a tech called "Basic Knowledge" is researched)it is also a prerequesit for a samll chain of techs, such as the basics, "shelter", "fire", "settled living" and "basic cropping" which are all required for a tech called "Basic Knowledge" which is a prerequisite for all techs.

the next religion to be founded will be the "Elven religion", the tech needed for this can be called "Elven Panthon" which can require a tech called "Magic Sight", which gives access to the magic techs such as "Raw magic" etc.

the next religion that will be founded is the "Chaos Religion" which will occur at a similar time to the "Elven Religion", and this signifies the collapse of the warp gates, and the rise of chaos. it also signifies the fall of the Slann and of the Old ones. The elves and dwarves are coming to thier golden age, and the humans are finally settling down, and ceasing to be barbaric. this religion can be founded by the first civ to research "Raw Magic".

[/URL][/IMG] this is something like i was thinking for the start of the tech tree.

thats all for, now. gotta go. what does everyone think of that?

 

[Ploeperpengel]

I'd say no chance to ever get this balanced. Lets have the game started after the warpgates collapse. Many cities are in ruins and those ruins will be our goodyhuts. All civs will have to rebuild their empires or build them for the first time. Ancient races will get slightly better starting techs than others and maybe better ancient buildings but will have more expensive units so they can't use their advantage immediatly. Also we should think about less citygrowth for them.

 

[Ploeperpengel]

how about start a little ahead in the tech tree, but miles (a whole age?) ahead in the magic tree? As well as that increase their science output but greatly reduce their growth rate and increase city maintenance.

that sounds good to me. What mechanics would we need for reduced growth? Also about the magic tree. Is it possible to make it in a way that there still can be interdependancies between mgic and techtree? I'm thinking of close relations or prereqs between gold magic and alchemie and celestial and astronomy i.e...

btw lopez new ingame techeditor will soon be released. This will greatly reduce the effort for revamping our techs as long they stay compatible to warlordsschema It will be a great tool which I can use to revamp the techtree in a seperate small mod and later integrate it back into WH.

 

[Ploeperpengel]

Oh damn that's bad news.

About interdependancies I don't plan many but a few just make sense. I.e. certain higher magictechs simply could need universities. But don't worry I plan to keep these links a small number

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

Thats a good idea for with the magic tree. but that dosnt rix the tedious ancient era in the tech tree

Is it also possible to make some religions only get founded by the magic tree, and others only in the tech tree, but some in both? this way certain religions would be founded by magical civs (ie elves and elven religion) but some religions would be founded by technological civs (ie dwarves and dwarven religion) this could also makecertain civs favour certain religions.

 

[Arexack_heretic]

I like the idea of ruins instead of goodyhuts.
But do 'home-made' ruins then also provide a bonus or just the usual defensive+razing money?
How to differentiate between the two?

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

@ everyone: here is a site to a good timeline and info on religions. the religions are basically the same as what i have put in the religion thread, but just bringing ui up again.:
http://www.criticalhit.co.uk/content/view/85/48/

Before we go too far with the religions and techs thing, WHAT RELIGIONS ARE WE ACTUALLY USING? are we incorporating that wonderful religion mod which lets us have millions of religions, or are we only haveing 6 or 7 or What?

 

[Ploeperpengel]

That's still not decided. I'd love to use Eusebius' Mod but it still needs a lot of developement so for now we should still stick to a few and wait for Eusebius improving his code further

 

[Arexack_heretic]

We should choose a basic concept and stick with it.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

ok, good, i just wanted to check again, i wasnt sure if it had changed or what

to sum up what i think would be good to help this problem:

( i will refer to points in the tech tree where religions could be discovered, i will call them 'tiers' eg, the first techs you can discover are called tier 1. the second techs you can discover after researching 1 other tech is tier 2, the third tech you discover after discovering 2 previous techs is tier 3 etc etc.)
have the game start at the fall of the Old Ones.
Old ones = first religion, tier 3, tech tree.
Elven gods = second religion, tier 5, tech tree / magic tree
Chaos gods = third religion, also tier 5, magic tree
Dwarf gods = fourth religion, tier 6, tech tree
Greenskin gods = fifth religion, tier 7, tech tree
Human gods = sixth religion, also tier 9, tech tree/ Magic tree
Jinto = seventh religion also tier 9, tech tree / Magic tree

Add some of these new buildings to the ancient era:
-Watch tower--- +15% defence
-Fur trader--- +1 gold from furs, game.
-tanners--- +1 sickness +1 gold for furs, game, sheep, horse, cattle.
-elder council--- +1 science
-Town Square--- +1 culture, +1 science, +1 gold, +1 sickness.
-Healer / Herbalist--- +1 health
-Jetty (cities next to water only)--- +1 food from coastal squares directly touching city square.

to show civilizations golden ages:
have the lizardman and elven civs start well into the magic tree (a whole age?) and a couple of tiers into the tech tree. but make their cities require more food to grow, and make units more expensive.
make the dwarves start well into the tech tree( several techs) but unable to gain access past a certain point in the magic tree (un-magical race) and have more food needed for cities to grow.
all other civs will act as normal.

 

[Chamaedrys]

I don't like the idea of a "food penalty". The disadvantage for the Elves is just to big: smaller cities produce less and their units cost more. Both effects together make the Elves almost unplayable.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

yes, but were forgetting that in order for those +x% bonuses to work, you actually need some buildings to act as the base. what good is it building an elder council in a city with only 1 science? that only increases the science to 1.25. pretty pathetic gain if you ask me. at the moment, i dont think we have many, if any at all, buildings which give base bonuses (+1). look at the vanilla version. most of the ancient buildings give base bonuses in the ancient era. this acts as something to actually make the % bonuses DO something. this isnt a matter of want, its a matter of NEED.
that is why i propose having at least one of each commerce (culture, gold and science) building to act as a base.