Techs & WH History & Religions etc.

Ok, ploe, remember you asked for some fluff on the Old Ones and the oldest Slann/ well here it is:D. i also think this would be the perfect time in which to start the game, in the "Rise of Sotek". please read it and see if we can use any of it.
(Its all quoted almost word for word from the old Lizardman rulebook.)

Spoiler :

The Rise of Sotek

One of the most significant events in the history of the Lizardmen, and indeed the world, is the rise of the cult of the serpent god Sotek. Traditionally, the gods of the Lizardmen were, and still are, the Old Ones: such shadowy entities as Tlaxcotl, Chotec, Quatl, Tzunki, Xapati, Huanchi and the inscutible Tepoc. Sotek, was a new god, an upstart god, the god of the skinks. Now Sotek reigns as the great god of the Lizardmen, eclipsing the Shadowy Old Ones.

The Old Ones

All lf the Slann who knew the Old Ones when they dwelt upon the earth are now dead. Although the younger Slann were spawned in the time of the Old Ones before the Great Catastrophe, they never actually saw the Old Ones. The Slann of the first spawning acted as intermediaries. They were the only Slann wise enough and mighty enough to be permited into the presence of the Old Ones. All lesser Slann faithfully and unquestioningly worshipped and obeyed the Old Ones as though they were living gods, but had no idea what they actually looked like. They represented them with various carved images, totems and idols, derived from the imagination of the Mage-Priests. As far as the lesser Mage-Priests and the mass of the lizardmen were concerned, the Old Ones were indeed gods.

The Prophecy of Sotek

When the Old Ones perished so did the Slann of the first spawning. The Slann who remained continued to venerate the Old Ones and gods. The last of the first spawned Slann had inscribed the Great World Plan of the Old Ones onto sacred plaques of gold before they themselves perished. These plaques were copied by the remaining Slann and recensions of the sacred plan were created in all temple cities. It is not certain whether all the copies were faithful in every detail to the master copy, half of which has now vanished through the depredations and plundering invaders. For this reason, every sacred plaque is precious to the Mage-Priests, because it may reveal unknown details of the divine plan of the Old Ones. The mage priests will go to any lengths to retrieve sacred plaques which were plundered from their temples.

For countless centuries the Prophesy of Sotek was an obscure detail known from only one plaque, which was kept in the great pyramid temple of Chaqua. Only the Mage- Priests of this city knew about it and never pondered it’s meaning for very long., in case other Mage-priests should readthier thoughts and demand that it be rendered up to them, or worse still, demand that it be purged as corrupt. The Mage-Priests of Chaqua believed that the Prophesy was the true words of the Old Ones, but since it was to be fulfilled in the distant future, like so many of te other intentions of the Old Ones, they did not concern themselves with it before the appointed time.

The Prophesy of Sotek not only predicted the collapse of the Warp Gates but also the cataclysmic invasion of Lustria by the Skaven. As the Skaven were not part f the Old Ones’ sacred plan they are treated as enemies of all those who follow the Old Ones.

The cataclysm had to be endured. It would come, it would rage for many centuries, and in due course it would pass. The prophesy predicted the ruin of many cities, including Chaqua, and the spreading of a great and terrible plague.

The time of the rodent spawn would eventually be brought to an end when the mighty serpent Sotek would appear. Sotek was destined to prevail over the rodent spawn and would be heralded by the appearance of the forked tongue of a serpent. The Mage-Priests Chaqua considered Sotek to be none other than one of the Old Ones who would return to save his faithful servants from the dire peril that beset them.

The Plagues

It was not until rumours of a virulent pestilence arrived in Chaqua that the Prophesy was scrutinised by the Mage-Priests. This took a long time, and in the mean time many of the skinks in the city began to sicken and die. Finally the Mage-Priests proclaimed the Prophesy to the population and despatched a warband of skinks to fight and attack the rodent stronghold and bring back captives for sacrifice. The Mage-Priests had made up their minds to invoke Sotek in an awesome ritual. They hoped to attract the god with the smoking stench of the rat servants of his arch enemy, the Rat God.

Few of the skinks returned, but those who did, did not return empty handed. Unfortunately their captives brought the plague into the city with them. The Skaven chiefs were duly sacrificed upon the new alter to Sotek and the god was invoked. Within weeks the city was devastated by pestilence. The Mage-Priests perished. Their Saurus body guards took their remains into the crypts and sealed up the passages from within, determined to defend their masters to the bitter end.

Whilst this was going on, a new sight appeared in the sky, a comet with two tails forked like the tongue of an enormous serpent. This sign was viewed with awe and consternation in all of the Lizardman cities, but try as they might, none of the Slann Mage-Priests could interpret the omen. It was not predicted in the glyphs of any of their sacred plaques. Only on the Plaque of Chaqua was this even predicted and its meaning made clear. The Slann of Chaqua were dead and none of the Slann Mage-Priests in the other cities were even aware of the existence of such a prophesy.

The Migration of the Red Crested Skinks

The surviving Skinks of Chaqua wer left leaderless. The Skinks of that generation were red crested and the greates among them was Tenehuini. He proclaimed himself to be the Prophet of Sotek, and rallied the other Skinks to him. Tenehuini had declared that the sign of Sotek had appeared in the sky as predicted by the sacred plaque of Chaqua. This plaque was place in a reliquary and taking this with them, the entire population of red crested skinks deserted Chaqua and migrated ahead of the plague.

Wherever the red crests went, they proclaimed the Prophesy of Sotek and urged the sacrifice of rat spawn to invoke the god. All skinks were swayed by the new cult, especially as it was the skinks which were the main victims of the Skaven plagues

As for the Mage-Priests of the other temple cities, they viewed the prophesy with disdain and ignored it, despite the heavenly portent. Perhaps wisely, they forbade the bringing of rat captives into their temple cities for fear of plague. This frustrated the skink followers of Sotek who were at great cost and suffering, succeeding in capturing Skaven chiefs in skirmishes and raids. It was not long, therefore, before skinks began conducting their own rituals to invoke Sotek among the ruins of their stricken cities.

The Emergence of Sotek

Sotek heard their invocations, although it took many years of sacrifices to build up his power. Although the coming of Sotek was foretold, and the moment of his coming was heralded by the comet, it was still necessary for his followers to make him as strong as possible for when he was due to appear.

The appearance of Sotek was hinted at in the prophesy and by the comet. He was a mighty serpent, the swallower of all rodent kind. A serpent of such awesome size and appetite that he could swallow the Rat God himself and spend a thousand years digesting him. The rodent god would be crushed within his coils. So said the prophesy.

The time of Sotek drew nigh. In the Skaven stronghold, the comet had been observed and it was seen as an omen of another kind. Soon afterward, a snake infestation drove the Skaven up from their tunnels into the ruins. The serpents proved virtually immune to any pestilence which the Plague Monks unleashed upon them. At length the decision was made to abandon the tunnels and migrate. Clan Pestilens gathered together and resolved to hack their way though the jungle to the coast and from their return to their place of origin.

This was indeed what they did. It was said laterthat following behind the rat spawn came a gigantic serpent, none other than Sotek himself, accompanied by his myriad slithering legions of snake spawn.

It is also said that the serpent plunged into the sea after the rafts of the retreating Skaven, and emerged even mightier in the South Lands. From there he slithered into the depths of the earth in his relentless pursuit of the Skaven and now lurks there feeding endlessly on ratspawn and protecting his people from the menace forever. Such is the myth of Sotek.

Sacrifices to Sotek

The Mage-Priests could no longer ignore the power of the god of the skinks. Tenehuini, the Prophet of Sotek, was summoned before the High Slann. He revealed the prophesy upon the sacred plaques. It was now clear that the prophesy was in truth the words of the Old Ones. The Mage-Priests decreed that new pyramid temples be raised up to honour Sotek in every city, and so the Cult of Sotek became pre-eminent among the Lizardmen.

Every temple of Sotek has a sacred snake pit of great depth. At the bottom of the pit dwells an ancient and enormous serpent. These serpents have been nurtured for centuries by the skinks because they are sacred to Sotek.

Sotek is honoured and invoked by trowing sacrificial victims down into the snake pit to be devoured by the sacred serpent. Enemies captured in ballet are acceptable as Sotek’s rightful tribute of sacrifices. Sotek is most gratified by Skaven sacrificial victims because he relishes greately the flesh of the rodent spawn. The Lizardmen are therefore always eagre to render such delicacies to their beloved god.


EDIT: for more fluff on the Old Ones, Lizardmen and Slann, go to this website:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lizardmen
 
I think this all might be a little too late. According to the armybook it's around the year 0 of the imperial calendar.
But another possibility might be the time after the war of the beard maybe. and we take the cult of Sotek instead of the old ones. Not sure yet though.
 
hmm, you're right that is too late :(

this is a very difficuld dilema isnt it.:sad: i mean, it makes sense that it should start at the begining, ie with the birth of the old ones, and civilisation. but then we would have trouble transforming it into a form that we can use in Civ.
but then if we start around the rise of man, we miss out the golden ages of the elves and dwarves. the Rise of Sotek is too late, the Destruction of the Wrp gates is too early, the creation of the Vortex in Ulthuan could be promising, probably still too soon though.
im truly confused. i might just shut up and stop changing my opinion. ;)
 
What bout the time of Woes round about 1500 before Sigmars birth. Slann Mage priest make shifts to the continents and bring the world into its final shape. Many Dwarven cities lie in ruins. Highelves just left the old world, Athel Loren founded.
Downside we loose ancient times of Khemri but then they could as well start of as undead immediately. Not to have the golden ages of Highelves and Dwarves might even be a plus since both have to recover from the battles of the last centuries which we could use as a good start to balance them with the other civs. Ok I know still strange but then we won't come around cheating WH-history anyway... Lets just say the Time of Woes had more devasting results to all civilizations than is recorded;)
 
To counter their slow (re)growth, we might give the Dwarves/Elves a early headstart by giving them more settlers to start out with than the other races.
Also reduced 'illness' (or free medicine tech) would encourage large cities early on.


The ancient races could also be given a headstart and lack of (further) technological development if we give them some free boni, but deny them the civics boni.
I'm not saying this is a good idea. ;)
 
Are we talking about trying to replacate the history in every game or just for the scenerios? Because in theory, maybe the Dwarf golden ends up later than the time of man simply because of a completly different world generated for that game of civ.

We have to remember this is still civ, with civ replayability, and which makes every game different. I would think getting it closer to the actual history would be better by triggering events in a scenerio rather than forcing it in every random game with this mod.
 
El Loco Mono said:
Are we talking about trying to replacate the history in every game or just for the scenerios? Because in theory, maybe the Dwarf golden ends up later than the time of man simply because of a completly different world generated for that game of civ.

We have to remember this is still civ, with civ replayability, and which makes every game different. I would think getting it closer to the actual history would be better by triggering events in a scenerio rather than forcing it in every random game with this mod.
No it's about the starting era. And what the techtree should look like. It's nothing about events. But I want the average game roughly found the religions in the right order i.e.- nothing hardcoded just a question of techcosts and placement in the techtree. It still should be possible to play different than WH-history told us. Also we need to be sure what our ancient era really represents to pimp up the design(what kind of buildings, techs etc. really fit to the era/civ in that era? What wonders?) this was totally unclear yet. I'm not going to forget that we do mod civ and no plans to just have an electronic historybook - no worries;)
 
that could work well ploe. i agree.

if we do what ploe said, we wont have to worry about the elves and dwarves being better at the start and weaker later on, because they are just as weak as humans at the start (does that make sense:crazyeye: )
 
about 1500 years before sigmar appeared in the Empire. quite a long time actually.

@ ploe, i was thinking, with the 'dawn of man' text, will you be putting it in place of the hints at the bottom of the 'dawn of man' movie? also, do you want a general history, or a brief history for each civ? (the latter would probably be easyer i think)
 
I like the idea of the time of woes....but as an apocalyptic event.
Which can be used maybe after each golden age ends...?


Dwarf/elf tech trees should not be disconnected from human tech trees.

Rather the longlived ones should have a predisposition to advance rather more quickly up the tree than the lower races.
Through civ tech boni as well as some race specific ancient buildings that grant some extra research. Maybe these races could have the ability to use an ancient-lore-specialist for free (disabled by choosing civic x).
 
Psychic_Llamas said:
about 1500 years before sigmar appeared in the Empire. quite a long time actually.

@ ploe, i was thinking, with the 'dawn of man' text, will you be putting it in place of the hints at the bottom of the 'dawn of man' movie? also, do you want a general history, or a brief history for each civ? (the latter would probably be easyer i think)
I think we need a general text for "Dawn of man" but can insert civspecific hints and fluff below. Same thing FFH has now.

@AH
Don't get where you're heading. Ancients aren't disconnected and I don't plan to except some civspecific techs later on like Whaag for Orcs, Gobbos now.
Ancient buildings can have slightly bigger techyields for ancient races no problem with that(but slightly only)
 
Ah, sorry about that diconnected bit.
That was more a response to an inner debate I was having with myself on the cons and pros of seperating some tech-trees entirely from the general tech-flow.

Ancient era buildings are not made redundant by Magicage technology?
 
Building design is probably something we should discuss in more detail after Chamaedrys linked the artfiles I sent him to xml and we get a playable version of WH back. Whatever values he types in we'll playtest and discuss the needs then.
Please back to my request I really want that decided. We agreed so far on the Times of Woe as start for the mod, right?
Now I need the pantheons. To get them in line with techs later.
 
Going back to Llama's spreadsheet of pre-civilized tech...which wouldn't work by the way because settled living is required for tech advance.

I have tried a similar thing for magical techs.
It is just a tryout and it is full of holes, but the major magicks are represented.

One of the main ideas is that the civ specific Oldfaiths determine some magic availabilities.
Religions have been half integrated but this needs a lot of optimization.


For reference purposes I'll try to attach the spreadsheet it below.
...okay a screengrab then. :blush:
 

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that is good. but where are the 8 colleges of magic? :p and the High magic, and Lore of Athel Loren, and Gut magic, and Rune Smithing, and and and :D

@ Ploe: im sorry, i havent even started typing up the dawn of man text :( sorry. i havent had the time, im having to study for my exams so i wont be able to do anything untill after the 17th of november. i appologise, but you might want to see if anyone else wants to do that.
(this is also why i havent done much about buildings for a while:))
 
haha.

I said there were 'holes'. The colours of magic are a tier above colour-magic, I only included Gold and Amber for lack of space, but all 8 should be represented there.

Dark Magic could share spells with necromancy. As could brightmagic with the elemental magic of fire etc.

Rune smithing is represented as a subbranch of artificing and enchanted smithing in general.
It is a combination of disspelling (anti-magic =Dwarf-specific) and enchanting and forging etc.

High Magic would be Elf-magic.

I havent thought of including Athel Loren magic, but they would be a WE civ specific branch of spirit magic.

Skaven magics and artificerism will be elaborated on later too.
 
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