Temples and Cathedrals

[miller4242]

to onomastikon,

I see that alot of pros have weighed with alot of EXCELLENT advice. If your style is peaceful builder, don't ever forget to have a sizeable defence force so that the AI will not start wars with you. It is possible to get non-military victories(cultural, diplomatic), on higher levels, but you have to be aggressive throughout the course of that game. Somewhere in the Stories forum(i forgot the name of the thread) some one pulled off a one-city cultural win on Emperor level (not 1CC).

Good luck with your gaming.

 

[Tone]

So you are saying that you basically spend your shields on military units?
OK, I can see that this makes the most sense, especially on higher levels.
I am a newb, and will probably remain that way. I think a lot of what I liked about this game compared to other strategy games I also like (example, DominionsII) is that you really can do a lot without fighting and MMing a military. I think that is "fun". So maybe that means I will have to play lower diff levels, since the "fun" things I like will no longer be valid when I hit Emperor or whatever.
What surprises me is that the pros here seem to have some sort of consensus that "fun" is not really an option, or maybe it is, but one which really can't be taken too seriously,...

I agree with many of your sentiments. In particular I too like the way that you can win with a variety of styles but I don't find building everything in every city fun. What I do like to do is to go all out for victory and focus all my attention on winning with the condition I have set my sights on asap. (A bit like Wacken only I'm nowhere near as good ) In many cases that can mean building stacks of units first but it doesn't have to be that way.

For example, (and have many to give if you want!) my HoF Diety Diplo victory was totally peaceful. I did not declare war on any civ during the game and they didn't declare on me. Excluding workers/scouts, my F3 stats for this game were:

1000BC 15 cities, 17 warriors. (first tier MA techs known)
10AD 27 cities, 22 warriors. (researching Physics)
550AD 29 cities, 20 warriors. (researching Atomic Theory)
820AD 29 cities, 2 guerillas, 11 infantry, 17 warriors-UN vote goes my way.

My point is that you can win at the higher levels without building a serious military but in this case I did have to use my skills in trading, knowing when and what to research and generally manipulating the AI civs that could easily have wiped me out in a couple of turns. That was fun!

What I didn't do though was build useless buildings. Research was the key so I build libraries in most towns and some universities. Markets kept most of my population happy. Banks were not required because by the time I could build them I was researching @100%. Temples and Caths were not cost effective: I only build a couple in my largest cities to help with happiness and then only after the markets and research buildings. Barracks were not required as I was playing a peaceful game- I just wanted some units to stop the AI from being tempted into walking into empty cities but maybe I was not being daring enough here. What I did want was to build a civilisation that was as research efficient as possible. If an improvement didn't contribute to that or help me in my trading I didn't build it until I could afford to.

You can win at the highest levels by building but you possibly need to focus on the victory and let the AI build everything in sight.

 

[vmxa]

Yes you can play a game that way at Deity, not too sure about Sid though. The thing is that you are on a very delicate balancing act. If the AI comes for you, it is all up in smoke.

Did you use normal aggressiveness AI's or turn them down? Did you hand pick civs to avoid any Xenos? I would not want Bismark in a game like that, it would make it very tricky.

Anyway a game like that calls for extreme knowledge of the AI and a fair amount of luck IMO. The house of cards can come down in nothing flat.

 

[onedreamer]

That all together makes military units very much more rewarding than cultural buildings. Culture buildings are lowest on list of valuable investments. Just below courthouses.

bah this is a very superficial statement. If you plan on wars, couthouses and religious buildings (read happyness) are a must, to overcome corruption and waste. We Love the Boss days + Courthouse are invaluable in border settlements at high levels if you like the military kind of game.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

bah this is a very superficial statement. If you plan on wars, couthouses and religious buildings (read happyness) are a must, to overcome corruption and waste. We Love the Boss days + Courthouse are invaluable in border settlements at high levels if you like the military kind of game.

You think i never fought a war ?
Sorry, i really do know what i talk about, and i am probably one of the most agressive warmongerers you will be able to find, and i think deity+Sid can be considered the "higher levels"

 

[Tone]

Yes you can play a game that way at Deity, not too sure about Sid though. The thing is that you are on a very delicate balancing act. If the AI comes for you, it is all up in smoke.

It is a risk but that's what I wanted to try. It paid off as my gold could go into research. I did try a Sid game as well but ulike the Diety game which was a pangea, I played 'pelago. I did share the island with one other civ and I think I ended up with one war before I launched my spaceship although it might have been two. You're right though, I don't think that I would risk it on Sid on a continents/pangea map.

Did you use normal aggressiveness AI's or turn them down? Did you hand pick civs to avoid any Xenos? I would not want Bismark in a game like that, it would make it very tricky.

Sorry but I can't remember about the AI agressiveness but I certainly didn't use the Persians or the Germans. I just cannot predict what Bismark is going to do in some games.

Anyway a game like that calls for extreme knowledge of the AI and a fair amount of luck IMO. The house of cards can come down in nothing flat.

I was just trying to point out that by working on other skills in the game, it is possible to win at the highest levels and that is what I find attractive. It is true that a degree of luck is required but I have played a large number of games where the AI has broadly done what I want him to do and this is skill worth learning.

Please don't get me wrong. This peaceful approach is certainly not representative of my usual Diety game and on no account would I recommend it as a starting point when moving onto this level. However I do like to try different approaches from time to time. Sometimes that means living on the edge to try and find out how far to push it in a normal game. If that means building a house of cards well so be it.

 

[onedreamer]

You think i never fought a war ?
Sorry, i really do know what i talk about, and i am probably one of the most agressive warmongerers you will be able to find, and i think deity+Sid can be considered the "higher levels"

no, I think you play with only half of your cities as productive ones, which is a waste as much as other things you described. It's a style of play, it's your style, it doesn't mean it's the only and viable one.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

no, I think you play with only half of your cities as productive ones, which is a waste as much as other things you described. It's a style of play, it's your style, it doesn't mean it's the only and viable one.

No, it is not the only viable one, it is the fastest winning one.
Maybe i should put it in my signature. All my advise is always focused on getting the fastest possible victory.
And i can tell you i am rather succesfull at getting fast victories (yes i am also arrogant)

using your car to travel 50 miles is certainly not the only viable way, you can also use a bike or go walk.

 

[Ansar]

No, it is not the only viable one, it is the fastest winning one.
Maybe i should put it in my signature. All my advise is always focused on getting the fastest possible victory.
And i can tell you i am rather succesfull at getting fast victories (yes i am also arrogant)

using your car to travel 50 miles is certainly not the only viable way, you can also use a bike or go walk.

I wouldnt exactly say dsont focuse on strategfy because without strategy you cant win but what is impportant for me is just to win, dont know how(NO CHEATING-Thats my rule) but that is what is important at the end of the day for me.

 

[commodified]

@Tone -- you are an inspiration!

@onomastikon -- as you can see, the casual player's idea of fun is a lot different from many Civ Fanatics. Personally, winning at the highest level possible is what's fun for me. I could beat just about any Monarch start you threw at me, but it wouldn't be as fun as striving to beat Deity (over. and over. and over again.). Culture's a lot of fun (although it would be more fun with Wonder movies ), but it's just not optimal on higher levels. Unfortunately militarism is optimal on deity and sid, so (for me) it can get a bit tedious.

To get a little philosophical, really what players like Moonsinger and SirPleb and Wacken do is analyze a particular iteration of a system and then apply optimized strategies to destroy this system. A great example is SirPleb's Sid HoF game, wherein he developed two incredible strategies for use with armies (the Funnel of Doom and the Funnel of Deception) which completely crippled Sid AIs with 20 times as many units as him. This is one of the things which is so sublimely weird about a single-player video game: it's not a confrontation between two human minds within an established system (like chess), but a confrontation between a human mind and code (which, in the hands of a master, can be played like a fiddle). What Wacken calls "ego," is the bizarre phenomenon of codified prestige in video games, most often represented by score. "Milking" is the clearest example of this on CFC--a game which was won hundreds of turns earlier is kept alive on the edge of a contingency (66% of world territory) in order to apply certain strategies to maximize this abstraction of "score."

400+ hours spent on a single game? This is the zeal with which our generation pursues its leisure...

This is also why I think the standard list of exploits is very problematic. The essence of the game is to exploit the frailties which inhere in the code itself. Show me a Sid victory which hasn't exploited the Great Library conquest, exploited C3C's invincible armies, etc.

Just some thoughts from a graduate student in new media studies. Don't think I'm being too critical--of course I'm hopelessly addicted to the system known as Civ III, too.

 

[Tone]

@Tone -- you are an inspiration!

Gee, thanks! I think you'll find that the top players have many examples of peaceful wins that are better than this. I have particularly enjoyed playing non-militaristic 5CC games at various levels. The culture is important so that you can claim as much land as possible and limited resources and research capabilities mean that you have to work on your trading skills to survive but the games can still have the military aspects if the AI starts to pick on their weak neighbour. Victories against such aggression to create a bit more space aound your small civ is particularly sweet. Of course I'm amazed with the skills of players that wins 5CC by conquest!

This is also why I think the standard list of exploits is very problematic. The essence of the game is to exploit the frailties which inhere in the code itself. Show me a Sid victory which hasn't exploited the Great Library conquest, exploited C3C's invincible armies, etc.

Well I could but I'm sure that many other could as well. I don't consider myself a Sid player by any stretch of the imagination. The step up from Diety is too great (50% extra production, pop growth, etc compared to Diety is an insane thing for me to deal with) for me to cope with unless I have some very favourable conditions. I wanted a Sid game in the HoF though so I looked for a gap in the tables and went for it. In doing so I guess I did exploit the game in a number of ways (all within the HoF rules I might add) but I didn't do anything to extreme or clever due to my peaceful gameplan. (although I had to hold myself back from taking on my neighbour several times when I started to get a little bit too confident for my own good!)

I think that it is sometimes difficult to draw the line between what is exploiting the AI and what is using your own skills. I'm sure that different people will draw the line in different places but that's what makes this game so good. We can all play at our own level, make our own judgements about what is fair and all get a great deal of fun out of it.

 

[Trev]

There are 2 ways to play the peaceful builder game, method one has been mentioned and that is to build banks, stack exchanges etc and maximise commerce. The 2nd whidh to me is more fun is to get a tech lead and sell tech for money, in this case build only marketplaces, no banks etc, but libraries, universities, and temples, cathredrals as needed for happiness, ideally it is 100% science you run, fund building, luxury purchases, rushbuilds from your tech trades. This to me is more fun and it works on levels to demigod, harder above that though.

 

[BobCW]

Eh, I could play by keeping all of my cities at size 12, building huge stacks of bombard units, and sweeping all throughout the AI, but I just don't find that very fun. The point of temple and cathedral culture really isn't to gain/prevent flips or keep people happy- it's to see that culture number grow and watch you borders expand one or two tiles into rival territory. Borders are my favorite part of Civ- it's probably worse than the Great Library addiction, but I say that if it makes the game fun...

 

[onomastikon]

Thanks for all these replies -- food for thought!
One question (not that I am going to try it now, though) -- how does one activate Sid level? Mine only goes up to Deity.
Oh, and this: Someone asked if I turned down the aggression level on the AIs. No. But how would one do that if one wanted to?

(EDIT): This too:
- Are there mods out there which would increase the price of a settler by X% shields and +1 population loss? I think I would like that, even if no one else would, because it would make, perhaps, purchasing settlers less of a no-brainer and make increasing borders via culture more important.
Since I am a computer idiot, I wouldnt know how to actually make this mod, so if it exists, I would be grateful if you could point me in the right direction. (Or tell me how to make it? But I really AM a computer idiot.) Thanks very much.

 

[brennan]

Sid level is highest level on the Conquests expansion. On conquests Emperor is followed by Demigod (equivalent to vanilla/PTW Deity IIRC), then Deity, then Sid. AI production ratio on Sid is 40%, compared with 60% on Vanilla/PTW Deity

You can definitely modify the resource cost of all units in the Editor, not sure about pop. costs. I think you need the PTW editor to modify advanced stuff like that and the Aggression levels. Vanilla editor was mostly a world builder.

To encourage more improvement building by top players in high level games, Culture should have been given for more buildings, and have a bigger impact. I dislike all this talk about never building temples, never having more than 12 tiles per city etc. The Cultural borders were one of the best additions to the game, but the top players ignore them; even when going for a cultural win, where their tactic is still to conquer everyone to make sure they grow as fast as possible and get the win asap.

Don't knock the Great Library.
How exactly is a 400 resource build that gains you a dozen techs for free bad?
Sir Pleb used it in his Sid game...

 

[vmxa]

Sid and Aggression settings come in C3C.

GL does not get you many techs in lower levels of the game, if any. This is because you will do all your own research and not wait for the AI to give you the techs.

Maybe at Monarch you could sit around a bit and horde cash, but at Warlord that is not worth the trouble.

The reason it is effect at Sid is because you cannot reseach fast enough in the first two ages. So you can get the GL and do 0% research until it expires.

How useful that is at levels like Emperor and Demi is debatable. I am not even sure it would be all that great at Sid, if it were not for the fact that most Sid games are set up to cripple the AI research rate early in the game.

If it was a contients game with min water and max civs, it is not all that great. I playes some of those and the contacts come quickly and Ed is learned too fast.

This does two things, the obvious is the GL expires sooner and the other is you no longer can be sure to even get it. In a typical island Sid game, you are a lock to get it, if you want it, because the AI is slow to Lit and does not get contacts soon enough.

Well I say a lock, but of course you can stumble.

 

[Tone]

Sid level is highest level on the Conquests expansion. On conquests Emperor is followed by Demigod (equivalent to vanilla/PTW Deity IIRC), then Deity, then Sid. AI production ratio on Sid is 40%, compared with 60% on Vanilla/PTW Deity

Demigod is only equivalent to vanilla/PtW Diety in the HoF due to the score bonus for finishing games before 2050AD is the same multiplier. They are therefore grouped together in the HoF because of the score similarities of the two levels.

The production/food ratio is 60% for Diety on all levels. Demigod though has a 70% ratio which is meant to be a kinder jump from Emperor (which is only an 80% bonus) so I'm not sure that it can be considered an equivalent to pre-C3C Diety when a player is considering how to master the next level up.

I echo the " " at the end though. Sid has a 50% production bonus when compared to Diety and as the AI only needs 8 food to move up a pop point for towns, any decent terrain can be settler factory material without a food bonus needed. The Sid level AI with the Pyramids grows at a ridiculous rate as virtualy every town will have population growth once every two turns!

 

[vmxa]

IMO logically you are correct, but pratically I would say Demi is about equal to Deity in C3. This is because of RCP and FP as well as some other factors.

 

[Tone]

IMO logically you are correct, but pratically I would say Demi is about equal to Deity in C3. This is because of RCP and FP as well as some other factors.

Possibly, but I'm not convinced. C3C is so different from the other versions in many respects that it is difficult to compare the two. IMO the type of game you play is a key factor in this though.

 

[vmxa]

Proably so, that why it is only my perspective and may not be correct.