Term 3 Defense: Securing The Core

[peter grimes]

It's a new term, a many of the challenges of the last hundreds of years will continue to busy this office.

Some of the main issues:

How soon can we get a barracks up?

Which huts to pop, and when?

Will we ever win this War on Barbarism?

As a rule, I think we should continue the plans set in motion under the last Minister. We should continue our exploration with the warriors in the north, seeking out the boundaries of KISS.

The curraghs should sail yet further, uncovering the shores of distant lands - and hopefully recognizing some civilizations on those shores.

As for the next few turns (to borrow a phrase):

1. I want Assyrian Bane to pop that hut to his east. If it be barbs, we're pretty strong. If it's something else, then I just might win one of these oija contests

2. Settle the Classical_Hero city next turn... The escort is there to in case a barb comes down from the mountain.

3. Continue due north with Ligurian Reapers. If we are lucky we'll be able to see KISS's western flank at some point.

4. The next warrior from Heron is a tough one. I'd really like to explore the area east of Athens. At the same time, I'd really like to have another warrior based in our core... Just in case.

Please let me know what you think about these plans. I will not post any instructions for the President until there's been some time for discussion.

 

[fe3333au]

I like them ... I think that the huts on the Ivory Coast are safe from KISS popping in the short term, as they have already explored this area ... so unblackening the eastern lands is good

 

[peter grimes]

But unblackening the eastern highlands means there will only be one warrior to police the entire homeland... and that one warrior is currently tied down defending the the settler / Classical_Hero town.

That's the trade-off.

Until the unit gets a history, I propose to name the warrior about to graduate from Heron Ares Warrior Heron.

 

[classical_hero]

For those who are writing off the use of swords, then have a look at this. http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2998 In this PBEM a player was able to ue just swords to win, so it is possible for us to use swords, but we must use them wisely though.

 

[fe3333au]

What about taking the hut popper on an easterly then southern walk? ... because the western coastal warrior will be hitting the other end of KISS territory soon anyway ... and let's give it a chance to get a scouting medal ... which is what I propose for the guy that is mapping the current KISS boarders

 

[Chamnix]

Which huts to pop, and when?

As far as when, I think I am the one always agitating about the timing… if we pop this turn and get a tech, it will be Masonry. If we wait 1 turn until Mysticism is complete and set research to Masonry, then we would pop Horseback Riding if we got a tech. I think in this case, we would prefer Masonry even though Horseback Riding is more expensive – once we get Horseback Riding, we will have to deal with barbarians on horses, and I don’t think we are ready for that. So, if the Foreign Ministry approves popping, I think now is as good a time as ever.

2. Settle the Classical_Hero city next turn... The escort is there to in case a barb comes down from the mountain.

Yep – the barb can’t attack without it being across a river plus we have time to fortify, so defending there is a high percentage chance for us. If the barb doesn’t approach, we should consider moving the warrior NE-NE to get him to attack us on a hill across the river, but it will really depend on which way the barb moves (if he does).

4. The next warrior from Heron is a tough one. I'd really like to explore the area east of Athens. At the same time, I'd really like to have another warrior based in our core... Just in case.

This is definitely a tough question. Fortunately, our military will be increasing soon in numbers if not in strength. A warrior is due from Athens in 3 turns then every 4 turns thereafter. Ideally, we want 2 MP in Athens, sufficient warriors to get to any vulnerable boundary spot, and, in at most 18 or so turns, we want at least 3-4 warriors in the homeland to be able to pop the hut south of The Black Hole.

Since we don’t have enough to do everything right now, we have to prioritize. To me, generally the least important thing to protect is our outlying towns. It sounds harsh, but when barbs pillage a town, the barb is destroyed, and they usually only get a handful of gold. If we have a warrior as MP in Athens, he saves us 1 gpt. If a barb pillages a town, he will probably get 5-6 gold (depending on our Treasury and the number of towns we have at the time). Unless we are getting pillaged every 5-6 turns, we are better off keeping an MP in Athens and not worrying about the outskirts. The danger is that sometimes barbs kill citizens or destroy production, and I don’t know how it is determined which they do. Of course, we must always have warriors close enough to protect our workers, settlers, and terrain improvements at all costs.

We really do need some information on the immediate northern territory for city placement, so I think I would send the warrior from Heron out for 6-7 turns then circle back on a slightly different route to uncover most of the nearby fog, but not have him stray too far from home. I agree with Feaurius that Assyrian Bane will at some point turn eastward (not sure when exactly) and will head back south to clear the more distant fog.

 

[peter grimes]

Here are my current thoughts, and I will edit this post as more comes in.. then post as instructions to Pres:

Assyrian Bane should pop hut east of him, hopefully getting a tech, then move 1 square North, to continue along KISS border. If KISS get upset, we'll gift them some treats later as an apology.

Snarling Narwhal should move 2 north, unless Foreign really wants to go into that bay.

Ares Warrior Heron should make his way to Athens along the road. If he's going to go exploring, he'll have to go through Athens anyway. While in Athens, we can see if he'll make much of a difference as an MP, and decide next turn (42) whether to leave him there or not.

Ares Warrior Butes stay in the soon-to-be-founded Classical Hero town

Ligurian Reapers continue North from the mountain.

Trusty Guppy continue exploring the western wastes.

 

[peter grimes]

@classical hero (and Regent man):
That swordsman story was fascinating! I am currently trying out an early war strategy playing Rome, and I'm learning much.

However, I don't see how this has any bearing on our current military plans. The only people we could possibly make war against is KISS. I don't think that's in our best interest at this point.

The other continent can't send over units for a while still, so I don't think they are a threat. I am not against building a couple of swordsmen at some point, but I see Veteran Hoplites as more of a priority.

 

[peter grimes]

I'd like to get input and ideas about the two warriors currently on MP duty in Virtuoso and Athens.

There have been suggestions that Heron (in athens currently) should explore to the east and north of Athens. I agree that we should do that a few turns before the settler is produced, but at the moment, is his presence in Athens worth the gold?

Butes (currently in Virtuoso) is a tougher question. Right now, he can stay where he is to defend Virtuoso against the barb in the mountain 2 squares away. We could try and take Butes 2 tiles NE to the hills. If the barb moves towards Butes, he is attacking across a river onto hills. If the barb moves to Virtuoso, we can intercept.

I'm just afraid that by leaving Butes where he is we are wasting turns. It is obvious that we will not wait until Hoplites are in Virtuoso before clearing that barb.

 

[Chamnix]

I'm still torn on the warrior in Athens. My initial reaction was he should definitely explore since we are planning on settling in that area next for a military factory, and we need information to make sure we pick the right spot. Also, Athens will produce a new warrior in 2 turns so we will have 1 MP soon anyway.

However, as I was considering worker moves, I think it may be best to move Jarom east to road as soon as he is done with his current road. By doing that he will uncover 2 tiles near the proposed city site himself, and he should complete the road in time for our settler to use it enabling us to settle that town one turn earlier. Jarom should be safe because Military Pop Head is not warning us of barbs nearby. Of course, Jarom will uncover only those 2 tiles, and an exploring warrior could uncover so much more, so it is still a tough call. Even if we want Butes to explore, should we send him now? The settler is 5 turns away - waiting for a couple turns before sending him may mean we have to make a relatively quick decision on final city location, but it does increase our science spending in the meantime. I'm not really sure.

Butes I think should move to try to draw the barb attack. By moving Butes NE-NE, the barbarian will probably move east to another mountain. Another NE move by Butes and the barb should attack him on a hill across a river. I agree he is wasting turns where he is, plus once we start moving units north and east of Athens, we will cross directly to the barb's SE, and he will start to move toward The Black Hole or toward our new military factory, and we may have to deal with him under worse circumstances. I think now is as good a time as we will get to draw his attack on terrain favorable to us, and we should take advantage of it so we can use Butes elsewhere.

 

[peter grimes]

Then I will post instructions to move Butes NE and NE again (if barb doesn't move); and let's leave Heron in Athens for the next turn or two. I agree that we should have the area well-scouted before settling.

 

[fe3333au]

Reasoning to hug the coast with Snarling Narwal is on off chance of glimpsing a TNTer and thus opening the diplomatic options ... also if we see Barbs we can be fairly sure that someone popped a hut nearby ... KISS are heading to TNT territory from other direction , I think they will probably meet soon ... so our priority is not to race around the coast but to open up as much territory as possible with landscapes ...

Athens warrior move him east ... lets see what is out there before KISS ... popping huts as we go (or at least noting their locations) ... reason ... research is not as important atm since we have to wait for KISS Writing in 8 ish turns (I have requested a more exact figure than the current guestimate) ... and it is only 1 turn without an MP ... we can afford it ... so go east young man

 

[peter grimes]

Good points about both the MP in Athens and Snarling Narwhal.

I just coutned tiles, and if Heron sets out when the granary is complete, he'll get to Yellowdot the same turn the settler is produced. That'll mean we have a 4 turn headstart uncovering tiles.

Snarling Narwhal appears to be uncovering just as many tiles by forging due north as he would by going into the bays. I'm looking the State of the Empire screenie. Going due north uncovers the same number of tiles, and 'gains' us one square movement. I'd like someone to doublecheck that - If I'm wrong we should certainly enter the bays.

 

[Chamnix]

Going due north uncovers the same number of tiles, and 'gains' us one square movement. I'd like someone to doublecheck that - If I'm wrong we should certainly enter the bays.

I think you are right, but unfortunately I am at work so I can't set up a test. I think the only way we could uncover an additional tile by moving inland is if the tile to the east of the fish is "lowland" (plains or grass) and there is a hill or mountain adjacent to that tile, then we could see the hill or mountain. In general, we can only see 1 land tile from the coast, and we should see that even by going 2N.

 

[fe3333au]

Wow never thought that at sea view would be different to land views ... I think you may be right ... but not 100% convinced ... and would the high ground terrain be visible from out at sea?

 

[Chamnix]

I did a quick thoroughly unscientific study on popping barbs from goody huts, but it had some interesting results…

I didn’t have time to set up a custom situation. All I did was start a new random map game on emperor with preserve random seed turned off and searched for goody huts. Once I found some, I planted a city nearby so a second city would not be directly next to the huts but would pop them upon founding. I moved several units to the area and experimented by popping the huts with the city with varying numbers of units nearby and kept reloading and repopping to get a variety of results. Here is what I found:

1. Barbarians will only appear on the 8 tiles surrounding the goody huts. They will never appear on the hut tile or any further away.

2. Barbarians will only appear on empty tiles. It does not matter what unit is on a tile (a worker is just as effective as a warrior), putting a unit somewhere guarantees there will be no barbarian appearing there.

3. If several of the 8 tiles are occupied, you sometimes get fewer barbarians. For example, when I had 5 units on 5 of the 8 tiles, sometimes I got 3 barbarians, but more often I got only 1 or 2. If I had 6 units, I only got 1 or 2, and if I had 7 units, I would only get 1 barbarian if I popped barbarians.

4. Although the number of barbarians changes, the overall chances of getting barbarians does not seem to change depending on how many tiles are occupied. Even with 7 tiles occupied, I still popped barbarians (actually one barbarian) 12 out of 20 times.

5. If all 8 tiles are occupied, you cannot pop barbarians, and your chances of popping everything else increases. I popped the huts 30 times with all 8 tiles occupied – I got 5 maps, 14 techs, 7 “skilled warriors”, 4 x25 gold, and no barbarians.

We certainly have enough units in the area to cover all 8 tiles if we want to guarantee no barbs. We can arrange to have workers working some of the tiles (I have attached a picture so we can figure out who goes where if we want to use this approach) and use our warriors on the tiles that we do not need to work yet.

Potential downsides – the workers may not be doing the most efficient things. Also, popping a tech would be a mixed blessing – we would pop Horseback Riding which means we would have to deal with mounted barbarians in the near future. If we don’t want to increase our chances for techs, we could leave 1 spot of our choosing open and deal with the 1 barbarian.

Anyway, food for thought…

 

[fe3333au]

Very interesting ...

I'm in two minds ... while I like the safety element ... I have a problem with it ... probably just me but I think it is tampering with the game engine ... just doesn't 'feel' right ...

Anyway I'd prefer to have Rik roll the dice and see who is Psychic

I am interested to hear what others think ...

 

[peter grimes]

It's not tampering at all. There is no more tampering there than plotting the timing of granaries and barracks.

From a Defensive Ministry POV, there are no reasons to not implement this plan. The main concerns seem to be on the Domestic front: Worker efficiency, tech research, etc.

Basically, I think the rest of this discussion should move back into the Domestic Arena. Defense requires 4 warriors in the homeland, 5 preferred, and then the Hut can be Popped.

But re Horsebakc Riding - if we get HBR, will that open up mounted barbs on the other continent as well?.. or just in huts that we pop? Has a bearing on the DNUT discussions.

 

[Chamnix]

I seem to have a habit of posting things in the wrong threads.:shakehead

But re Horsebakc Riding - if we get HBR, will that open up mounted barbs on the other continent as well?.. or just in huts that we pop? Has a bearing on the DNUT discussions.

I'm pretty sure it will open up mounted barbs on the other continent as well although from the sounds of things, the other continent seems to be more on a warlike stance. They may have a greater proportion of military to settlers/workers than we do and may be able to handle barbarians more easily.

I don't think mounted barbs ever pop from huts - I don't remember ever seeing that happen anyway. I think we will only see mounted barbs coming from the barb camps that spring up periodically in unclaimed territory.

 

[peter grimes]

@Chamnix - I wasn't complaining about you posting this discussion here, and I apologize if I came across with a tinge of negativity. Sometimes it's difficult to keep comments to a minimum number of words as well as conveying the appropriate emotion.

What I was trying to say was that as far as Defense is concerned, there is no benefit or disadvantage to this plan... the real debate seems to be on the Domestic benefits.