Term 6 - Judiciary

The public opinion at the time a law was written could be relevant in terms of establishing intent when the interpretation is in doubt, but current public opinion per se is not something we want the judiciary to base rulings on. It is quite valid for a citizen to offer an interpretation of what the law says or was intended to say along with analysis or evidence which suggests a ruling for one side or the other.
 
And according to you, George, if he was appointed in term 1, he may be elected in term 2 and 3?
Right?
No. Section III says "After serving two terms". If you are appointed in Term X, you served that term. If elected in Term X+1, you served that term. That qualifies as serving two terms, in which Section III prevents you from running again in Term X+2.

I didn't wait for discussion on this because I am ruling on what the wording says, not how I or anyone else feels. Although I believe in some flexability in the Judiciary, this seems pretty black and white to me.
 
I know this will come as a surprise to many watchers of the Court, but the honorable Public Defender's remarks have caused me to rethink my approach to case 6-5.

Bailiff! Smelling salts for Chief Justice Emeritus Mr Donsig please!! :lol:

No, really it's true. I had been planning to say that the law in question clearly and obviously applied only to being elected and serving the terms one is elected to, but now it seems to also apply to some other non-obvious scenarios. I'm going to hold off a bit and consider that idea some more.
 
DaveShack said:
No, really it's true. I had been planning to say that the law in question clearly and obviously applied only to being elected and serving the terms one is elected to, but now it seems to also apply to some other non-obvious scenarios. I'm going to hold off a bit and consider that idea some more.

Thanks for the smelling salts. :D I am heartened to hear these words of yours. Some of us who have been around these demogames for a couple years now can clearly see the pitfalls of writing DG laws. No matter how much effort is put into foreseeing all, it is impossible to to plan for all those non-obvious scenarios. (That's a great term by the way.) The more scenarios planned for, the more complex the law must be. Since there are times when these non-obvious scenarios cannot wait for the next election cycle to resolve them we can only fall back on our laws as they are written. There are two ways, between elections, to handle unresolved non-obvious scenarios. One is through the judiciary and another is through citizen initiative. Unfortunately, in this DG, the judiciary was a bit marred when it refused to acknowledge and properly act on a conflict of interest. As for formal citizen's initiatives, that idea is a new addition to our constitution and, despite some attempts, was never really put to the test during this game. If that concept ever gets established we will have to work out what happens when a citizen initiative (with the force of law) is passed but conflicts with existing law.

Food for thought for future DGs.
 
Dear Judiciary,

As a concerned citizen, I would like to point out that our president Nobody has not been active in our forums. Though he's been busy reading and posting in the off-topic forums, he hasn't posted here since June 4th, two weeks ago.

On that note, I looked back and noticed that the Absence Investigations we used to remove some people from office were part of the judicial procedures, but have since disappeared. Should we put these back in, so we don't have to go through a full recall procedure when someone just disappears?
 
robboo said:
I request a JR on the following amendment and mock poll.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=169405&page=2

:hmm: Is this the very same exact amendment that was reviewed (and found to conflict with current law) last term? Re-reviewing proposed amendments should certainly be a :nono: since it sets a precedent that future courts can revisit whatever past rulings they want! I am quite dismayed to see this request especially when the discussion thread shows the new JR request was instigated by the current CJ! I can see we still have not learned anything about conflict of interest in this game. [sigh]
 
Sigma said:
Dear Judiciary,

As a concerned citizen, I would like to point out that our president Nobody has not been active in our forums. Though he's been busy reading and posting in the off-topic forums, he hasn't posted here since June 4th, two weeks ago.

On that note, I looked back and noticed that the Absence Investigations we used to remove some people from office were part of the judicial procedures, but have since disappeared. Should we put these back in, so we don't have to go through a full recall procedure when someone just disappears?
They were removed because they had no constitutional backing, so you would need to use the recall procedure
 
donsig said:
:hmm: Is this the very same exact amendment that was reviewed (and found to conflict with current law) last term? Re-reviewing proposed amendments should certainly be a :nono: since it sets a precedent that future courts can revisit whatever past rulings they want! I am quite dismayed to see this request especially when the discussion thread shows the new JR request was instigated by the current CJ! I can see we still have not learned anything about conflict of interest in this game. [sigh]
I agree, the amendment was denied 3-0 last term, and the authors haven't fixed the problems.
Mr. CJ please rule this JR to have no merit
 
Sigma..if you recall the president you have to recall the Tri( nobody, Rihiter and myself). I tried to get a JR for this BUT it seems its OK to protect a person who doesnt show up for his office with our constitution but its OK to impeach a member of the Tri( ME) who has done his job since the term started in order to remove a bad office holder. Seems there is no constitutional protection for good officials..only those who dont show up. This would also take roughly 8 to 10 days to get a new tri...

Pleae go forward with the recall...maybe finally our judges migth consider weather Rihiters and My rights were violated and decalre this law unconstituional. I think I even asked for help writing a replacement law...but none was forth coming.

So just let Nobody stay away and we can go without him...we havent really needed him yet anyway. Just everyone remember this next time a person shows up for an office that hasnt contributed the previous term.
 
Black_Hole said:
I agree, the amendment was denied 3-0 last term, and the authors haven't fixed the problems.
Mr. CJ please rule this JR to have no merit

Never mind I found it( i was looking at the orginal submitted to you and the one I refernced. I thougth there were changes.)
 
Black_Hole said:
I agree, the amendment was denied 3-0 last term, and the authors haven't fixed the problems.
Mr. CJ please rule this JR to have no merit

This court has ruled in case 6-1 that restrictions on the right to be eligible to hold an office are allowed. Since the previous ruling on this amendment was based solely on the idea that restrictions to be eligible to hold an office are not allowed, it logically follows that the amendment needs to be re-reviewed to see if there are any other conflicts with current law.

If a citizen wanted the amendment text to be changed before it was resubmitted, then the suggested change should have been raised in the amendment thread.

Robboo's request is accepted as case 6-6.

Donsig claims a potential conflict of interest because I initiated the original amendment. Having an opinion on a subject doesn't by itself reflect a conflict of interest. If I had something to gain, then there would be the possibility of a conflict, but there is no demonstratable gain from reviewing it. It is still possible that the citizens might not ratify the amendment, and if it is ratified it merely affects future events. It is not even clear that the court won't find some other conflict and rule it as ineligible on some other grounds.

As for courts overturning the results of prior courts, that happens all the time in real life and there is no reason not to expect it to happen in this game. The U.S. Supreme Court just overturned itself, on the issue of no-knock search warrants, saying that police who fail to knock and pause might be subject to civil or even criminal charges if the urgency of the case turns out not to justify speedy entry, but that evidence obtained in this way should not be automatically excluded. The previous ruling was for automatically excluding the evidence.

As I've said many times, very few Democracy Game decisions should ever be considered permanent. There are some things we won't do, like reloading a save, but when it comes to humans making decisions we pretty much always allow that decision to change.

The role of the Judiciary in reviewing laws is to help the people by ensuring new laws aren't so flawed that they can't be implemented without an immediate JR, not to prevent the people from changing laws. We should allow all but the amendments with the very worst legal conflicts to get a fair vote by the people, and not act as the committee to say no.
 
On the issue of Nobody's absense from the office of President, I suggest looking at the proposed amendment on vacancies and appointments. You will find that the procedure to declare an office vacant is addressed by that amendment, if only the people are allowed to vote on it.

I will, of course, be quite interested to hear arguments disclosing any newly discovered conflicts between the amendment and current law.
 
Judge Advocate's Ruling on JR#6-5
6.A.III of the CoL does not restrict citizens from holding office more than two terms but does not allow citizens to run for an office after holding it for two terms. So a citizen could theoretically be appointed to an office for an infinite number of terms and still not violate this law. However after holding an office (doesn't matter how citizen got into office) for two terms, a citizen may not run for office, but could be appointed.
 
The law in question places two restrictions on eligibility to be a candidate for an office. It does not place any restrictions on holding that office for more than two terms.
  1. No citizen may be a candidate for the same office in three consecutive elections.
  2. No citizen may be a candidate for an office after holding that office in any part of two or more consecutive terms, by any means.

The court has ruled 3-0 that Section 6.A of the Code of Laws places a restriction on eligibility to be elected for an office, but that it does not restrict eligibility to hold that same office.
 
DaveShack said:
Donsig claims a potential conflict of interest because I initiated the original amendment. Having an opinion on a subject doesn't by itself reflect a conflict of interest. If I had something to gain, then there would be the possibility of a conflict, but there is no demonstratable gain from reviewing it. It is still possible that the citizens might not ratify the amendment, and if it is ratified it merely affects future events. It is not even clear that the court won't find some other conflict and rule it as ineligible on some other grounds.

I agree that having an opinion on something does not constitute a conflict of interest. But you have more than an opinion about this one DaveShack. I would even hesitate to say that judiciary members cannot initiate JRs. But in this particular instance, when you have loudly proclaimed that the last court was WRONG and then you ask someone else to ask for a JR on the very same law so a court that you head can re-review it. Under these circumstances I have no qualms what-so-ever about raising the conflict of interest arguement. You're trying to railroad this amendment through and you're trying to use your position as CJ to do it. I'll call that a conflict of interest any day. The fact that you are trying to accept the case even after robboo withdrew it in post #71 of this very thread convinces me even more of this.

I urge you to drop this case now. Change the proposal (preferably by removing reference to the 72 hours waiting period) and then ask for a JR yourself - that would be appropriate.
 
donsig said:
I agree that having an opinion on something does not constitute a conflict of interest. But you have more than an opinion about this one DaveShack. I would even hesitate to say that judiciary members cannot initiate JRs. But in this particular instance, when you have loudly proclaimed that the last court was WRONG and then you ask someone else to ask for a JR on the very same law so a court that you head can re-review it. Under these circumstances I have no qualms what-so-ever about raising the conflict of interest arguement. You're trying to railroad this amendment through and you're trying to use your position as CJ to do it. I'll call that a conflict of interest any day. The fact that you are trying to accept the case even after robboo withdrew it in post #71 of this very thread convinces me even more of this.

I urge you to drop this case now. Change the proposal (preferably by removing reference to the 72 hours waiting period) and then ask for a JR yourself - that would be appropriate.

I didn't read post #71 as withdrawing the case. If that was indeed the intent, then we shouldn't proceed with it.

It would also be in order for a citizen to make a desired change to the amendment proposal and resubmit it for review. If that happened, such a review would likely be accepted in lieu of the currently pending one. As you said yourself, it wouldn't be as appropriate for a Justice to legislate so I would feel more comfortable if someone who actually wants to change the law goes ahead and does it. Care to take up that offer? ;)
 
DaveShack said:
As you said yourself, it wouldn't be as appropriate for a Justice to legislate so I would feel more comfortable if someone who actually wants to change the law goes ahead and does it. Care to take up that offer? ;)

I would do that if it would prevent the passage of the amendment we already found conflicts with. I would not do so as someone who wants to change the law. The law, as it stands and has been interpreted, is fine with me.
 
donsig said:
I would do that if it would prevent the passage of the amendment we already found conflicts with. I would not do so as someone who wants to change the law. The law, as it stands and has been interpreted, is fine with me.

Sorry, terminology problem... :lol:

I meant someone who wants the proposed amendment changed. ;)

BTW your proposed change of just not having a time specified at all would be fine with me. My objection is to unnecessary delays of any kind. What's bothered me the most about all of this is that we had a delay in declaring that delays are needed, followed by a delay in approving an amendment to clarify when delays are needed, followed by yet another delay in approving that same amendment. The whole past 3 terms has been one delay after another, all of which have been unnecessary.
 
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