1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Term 6 Nomination: Warlord

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Democracy Game II' started by dutchfire, Jul 24, 2007.

  1. Joe Harker

    Joe Harker 1st in the Premiership!

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    2,812
    Location:
    Coventry!
    See, I think Cavalry would be a good unit to have to finish the remains of the German/Roman Empire. Plus if we were invaded by the other contient, they would provide a good reaction force to the landings. Overall I would like to get marines infantry and Tanks, but they are not very close in the tech tree, so we do need to have a force that can complete now, if you see what i mean.
    I would be happy with rifling (it's often a tech i beeline too) since it gives us the all important riflemen, but that requires two techs, both are quite expensive, instead of one quite inexpensive tech (assuming we either research nationalism while trying to get Democracy as our free tech, or getting nationalism as our free tech).
     
  2. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,102
    Location:
    London

    I think that we can hold of naval invasions with a good fleet, we are not to allow ships to even get close. I know the isolationist party has similar thoughts, and cavalry would probably be the choice for a space race victory counter-force, but far to feeble for the game development I forecast.
    After Cavalry, there is no further promotions as they are obsolete, and not upgradeable.

    I am only thinking of Marines and Tanks for the overseas invasion, until then, a naval screen would do the job.

    We really do not need cavalry to conclude this continents wars, we will do that with macemen, catapults and the occasional knight, keshik and axeman. Cavalry, or military tradition for that matter, is somewhat useless in this demogame, as I see it.

    I rather see us get Chemistry (Grenadiers and Frigates) and other naval techs, as well as cannon and so on. I can see that infantry will make this game for us, infantry and navy.
     
  3. Joe Harker

    Joe Harker 1st in the Premiership!

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    2,812
    Location:
    Coventry!
    Yes i agree with you on the navy, a ship in every city, so that a invading force can be at least be counter.
    I do see your arguement, but I think cavalry at least should have a part in our armed forces, and they can be upgraded to gunships later, which i think is an underated unit, plus if we upgrade our cavalry to them, with have a force that we wouldn't normally build. I would like rifling, because the riflemen are good, and are certainly a better option overall, but i think if we can get cavalry, at least then we have a quick reaction force to an invasion that might get though. Plus they could easily be used as raiders in any invasion of the other contient, cutting roads and causing chaos behind emeny lines. (Plus tied up units that could be countering our main invasion force).
    Grenadiers i find are not very good units, because they are just weak enough for older units, such as knights and macmen, to kill them with two or so units. Cavalry and particulary riflemen can withstand quite a bit of punishment.
     
  4. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,102
    Location:
    London
    I am not saying abandoning cavalry altogether, just prioritizing it less. Gunships is a good bonus force to have, but the main overseas invasions should be carried out with marines, infantry and other troops that can take cities and hold ground. even keshiks and knights could pillage tiles, as mounted units would be killed anyhow if segregated from the main force.

    The reaction force could also be railroaded. It is very unlikely we see a naval invasion from the Aztecs would happen before cavalry obsoletes.

    I also disagree with a ship in every port, which reminds me of how the french spread their tanks thin in WW2 as infantry support. We need a screen of early warning patrol destroyers focussing on their departure ports, and a strong naval reaction force to follow up on one of the two leads.This will give us the flexibility to respond by altering production lines in our ports.

    Grenadiers would be nothing but a mere transitory unit, I guess they will not be built in large numbers. However, the frigates are key for a long while, and key in protecting overseas bases.
     
  5. Joe Harker

    Joe Harker 1st in the Premiership!

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    2,812
    Location:
    Coventry!
    Naval wise, it's a tactics i often use in my own games and it seems to work really well on civ 4, i also try to put a ship outside each civ's main naval base (isn't normally that hard to find). Then when i see a fleet come out, i get ships from all the cities that i need and send them off to sink them before they reach my island. The reason i would keep them in (or around) each city would be just in case a fleet takes us by susprise and our main fleet is three turns away or something to that effect.


    I don't like your assessment of the aztecs (or any other civ for that matter) are unlikey to invade us before railroad. The amount of times i have been invaded only having met the civ just a while ago, i would be rich if i put a pound on it!

    Therefore we need a plan before we get railroad because it is a way off, so it's not really a good idea to plan something that we can't use. (and it will take a number of turns to build up the rail network)
    Basically, better safe than sorry! :)
     
  6. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,102
    Location:
    London
    I am certain we will have cavalry in abundance, as we already got 10 cavalry units or so. I think we need to gear for scaleable infantry even more.

    Since we both agree that cavalry is to be a part of it, but disagree on the emphasis, I can say that cavalry should be at 10-20 % of our total force, but never above 20 %.
     
  7. Joe Harker

    Joe Harker 1st in the Premiership!

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    2,812
    Location:
    Coventry!
    I would agree that something around 20% of our armed forces should be cavalry, that would be fine (maybe just a little bit higher, but not by much more).
     
  8. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,102
    Location:
    London
    We could say you advocate 25 % cavalry, whereas I advocate 15 % cavalry.

    I just want infantry to be the main priority on land, where cavalry has more a subsidiary role. Also, infantry has many more purposes than cavalry.
     
  9. Joe Harker

    Joe Harker 1st in the Premiership!

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    2,812
    Location:
    Coventry!
    Yeah i would agree with that statment. :)
     
  10. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,102
    Location:
    London
    For the spare 10 % units, I would use half on infantry (5 % more than you) and the other half on our navy (5 % more navy than you).

    Remember, upkeep restrictions kick in. I would draft several of the infantry as well, making this the cheapest and most effective solution.

    A stronger infantry and navy than Joes alternative will win us the game.
     
  11. fed1943

    fed1943 Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2005
    Messages:
    1,185
    Location:
    Lisbon
    I really like this way! That's how I see demo games.

    Just one question: West Point?

    Best regards,
     
  12. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,102
    Location:
    London
    Good you liked the debate, so you get real alternatives to choose from.

    Good point about West Point.

    West Point could be placed in Coppertown, which is the main military city with Heroic Epic. That is my view on that.
     
  13. Joe Harker

    Joe Harker 1st in the Premiership!

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    2,812
    Location:
    Coventry!
    I should point out I thought you meant 20% of land forces! :p.
    So you would have more infantry than me (but not necessarily stronger than my proposed army!), but our proposed navies are likey to be about the same size.
     
  14. Joe Harker

    Joe Harker 1st in the Premiership!

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    2,812
    Location:
    Coventry!
    Fed, I am glad you are enjoying the debate.
    There is a sense of irony that the most civilised debate for elections might be for the warlords position!

    On your question, it would depend on which city had the most production (or the most potential production), plus other factors should has access to the sea (not essential but a factor to consider).
     
  15. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,102
    Location:
    London
    I guess my army will be more infantry and cannon based, with less cavalry, but a greater diversity and specialization in infantry promotions.

    I am also certain that my navy will be stronger than yours for several reasons.

    a Provolution Army/Navy of 100 units for 25 cities (we got 18 now, and I expect 7 more in next term) would look like this:

    Army (75)

    Home Army
    25 Riflemen with Double City Garrison defense as defenders of our 25 cities.


    Home Reaction Force
    10 Mobile Riflemen (for the use of mobile home defense)
    10 keshiks and knights (veterans from German-Roman Wars, may be upgraded if needed)
    3 catapults/cannons

    Expeditionary corps
    20 Veteran Riflemen
    5 Cannons
    2 Knights/Cavalry

    Navy
    4 caravels to explore the world (These would be too far away to make a difference as galleons, no upgrades for a long while)
    12 frigates (These would keep our continent safe)
    9 galleons (later to be promoted to transports, but serve as expedition force or colonization fleet)

    Infantry cost less to build as well, so we can build more buildings. So my solution is most military for a lesser sum, since Vassalage allows for a more specialized military.

    As the posts here show, I do my research thoroughly.
     
  16. Joe Harker

    Joe Harker 1st in the Premiership!

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    2,812
    Location:
    Coventry!
    Ok a proposed force ratio by me.

    Defence of the Cities (25% of all forces.)

    Assuming we get 25 cities within the next turnchat as Provolution said

    25% Riflemen with city garrison promotions

    Reaction and Responce Force (RRF) (17% of all forces)
    8% Cavalry units
    7% Riflemen
    2% Siege Weapons
    These will be spread throughout the empire, to provide defence as soon as the invasion lands and hold them off until renforcements arrive.

    The main army (30% of all forces)
    13% Rfilemen
    9% Cavalry
    8% Siege Weapons

    Navy 28% of all forces
    10% Galleons
    3% Caravels
    15% Frigates (Home fleet: 12% Patrols: 3%)

    So overall compared to Provolutions figures there is a 12% increase in the navy, a 11% increase in the main/expeditionary force, a 30% increase in the invasion responce force, but a dip of 28% in the home defence, although some of disappears when you take in to consideration that the invasion responce is spreaded throughout some of the cities.

    As you can see there is a big difference between Provolution and me. :)
     
  17. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,102
    Location:
    London
    Good you are inspired by my structural set-up for your own argumentation, you are learning fast :)

    Basically, I want to delay foreign land invasions until we got WW1/WW2 style technology, whereas the other option presented by Joe, is more for the use of galleon based invasions. Since the galleons would be upgraded to transports, I would say that 45 units is a lot for a landing force. Then again, his extra galleon and my extra caravel merely means a quicker world map and 3 less units to go overseas for my case. My three less frigates than Joe is merely economics, allowing us to have a stronger home defense and more infantry to ship over later.

    Joes Expedition force will be largely useless when we get Infantry and WW1 technology, which I think will be close, given our many banks, universities and super strong research rate. Then half of his expedition force would be free meals to hungry soldiers. The infantry can be counted on in many roles, and my infantry will last us throughout the entire game. When transports are made out of Galleons, I would be capable of handling 45 passengers, whereas his will be 50 passengers. However, my passengers would be more capable of winning a WW1 and WW2 fight, as horsemen would not make it against rifles and MGs. Most likely, I would add more cannons on a second thought.

    Most likely, we will see few invasions going far inland.
     
  18. Joe Harker

    Joe Harker 1st in the Premiership!

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    2,812
    Location:
    Coventry!
    I got to learn fast, you are coming up with some good arguements! :)

    But it may be more economical to build new units rather than upgrade them (it does cost alot of money, so much i don't think the citizens will support a full upgrade for the armed forces, maybe just a few well promoted units), so eventually some of my cavalry will be struck off and new Tank units shall take their place, so therefore my army would have to be rebuilt over time, but that doesn't cost money (Cities like Riversight never have much to do, so they would fit well into my plan), unlike Provolutions mass upgrade system which requires a fair amount of cash!
     
  19. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,102
    Location:
    London
    The beauty of vassalage, which I fought hard and long for, is that we can build the military from scratch in ship shape.

    I intend to disband all green troops, and I will only ask for upgrading the knights/keshiks if we are invaded. This is another economic variable. You want to build/upgrade all the cavalry units it seems, where I want to do it last minute with our keshiks/knights if invaded.

    I would say 3 promotions warrants an upgrade, since these troops are real good.
    I will cost us 1000-2000 gold (mostly the best macemen/axemen), but be worth it.

    So, my "mass upgrade" plan would not cost too much cash, as the Home Reaction Force is not upgraded unless there is an invasion going on.
    Our economy is strong, and we can easily raise enough cash to upgrade them all in 3-4 turns if needed. Early warnings assures this system.

    The problem with cavalry, is that they are practically useless when attacking cities, which will be the main job of the expeditionary corps. Besides, we will see that our infantrymen lives longer. I can see that Joes Army would have a much higher mortality rate, as the core promotion system does not exist in his model.

    I wonder if the Mongol Mothers vote for me, as I save their young sons?
     
  20. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,102
    Location:
    London
    I would rather let Riversight build wonders and buildings than troops, if possible.
     

Share This Page