Terraforming Planets

Xen said:
ahh, thnak you perfection; though I belive i said somthign to the point in the above post, that to get the atmospher eneeded, you nee dmore gravity then mars has- but evn ewith the gravity mars dose have, it shoudl be posisbel to get an earht like enviroment- not saying thie rwill be tropical rianfoests, but a climate like searth temperate regions isnt that unlikelly IMO
I'm talking about having breatheable atmopheric pressure, plants won't need that, but animals will!

Xen said:
as for where I heard that it could be terraforme dso quicklly? a google search will yeaild many upon many quality results :)
My google search has reveled longer results, where are you getting yours?
 
what sites are you reading?
 
If and when Mars is terraformed, I think that in the end, the atmosphere would still be pretty thin. At best, the surface pressure at sea level would be similar to being 2/3rds of the way up Mt. Everest.
 
Xen said:
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~mfogg/zubrin.htm

donsent give the time table i saw(cant find it), but it is the best outline for terraforming mars i have ever seen
Umm, his step for oxygenation takes over 900 years ;) and he relies on asteroids impacts for certain things, which is not the best way of going about terraforming. Oh and he still hasn't shown how to get pressure up to human acceptable levels.
 
Perfection said:
Oh and he still hasn't shown how to get pressure up to human acceptable levels.

In figure 1 we see the results of our model when applied to the situation at Mars' south polar cap, where it is believed that enough CO2 may be held frozen as dry ice to give Mars an atmosphere on the order of 50 to 100 mbar. We have plotted the polar temperature as a function of the pressure, in accord with equations (1) and (2), and the vapor pressure as a function of the polar temperature, in accord with equation (5). There are two equilibrium points, labeled A and B where the values of P and T are mutually consistent. However A is a stable equilibrium, while B is unstable. This can be seen by examining the dynamics of the system wherever the two curves do not coincide. Whenever the temperature curve lies above the vapor pressure curve, the system will move to the right, i.e. towards increased temperature and pressure; this would represent a runaway greenhouse effect. Whenever the pressure curve lies above the temperature curve, the system will move to the left, i.e. a temperatures and pressure will both drop in a runaway icebox icebox effect. Mars today is at point A, with 6 mbar of pressure and a temperature of about 147 K at the pole.

Now consider what would happen if someone artificially increased the temperature of the Martian pole by several degrees K. As the temperature is increased, points A and B would move towards each other until they met. If the temperature increase were


4 K, the temperature curve would be moved upwards on the graph sufficiently so that it would lie above the vapor pressure curve everywhere. The result would be a runaway greenhouse effect that would cause the entire pole to evaporate, perhaps in less than a decade. Once the pressure and temperature have moved past the current location point B, Mars will be in a runaway greenhouse condition even without artificial heating, so if later the heating activity were discontinued the atmosphere will remain in place.

As the polar cap evaporates, the dynamics of the greenhouse effect caused by the reserves of CO2 held in the Martian soil come into play. These reserves exist primarily in the high latitude regions, and by themselves are estimated to be enough to give Mars a 400 mbar atmosphere. We can't get them all out however, because as they are forced out of the ground by warming, the soil becomes an increasingly effective "dry sponge" acting to hold them back. The dynamics of this system are shown in fig. 2, in which we assume Td=20, current polar reserves of 100 mb, and regolith reserves of 394 mb, and graph the pressure on the planet as a function of Treg, where Treg is the weighted average of the temperature given by integrating the right hand side of equation (6) over the surface of the planet using the temperature distribution given by equation (4).

That is:

Treg= -Tdln{0S90Exp(-T(q)/Td)sinqdq} (Eq. 7)

Since Treg is a function of the temperature distribution and Tmean, it is a function of P, and thus Treg(P) can also be graphed. The result are a set of T(P) curves and P(T) curves, whose crossing points reflect stable or unstable equilibrium, just as in the case of the polar cap analysis.

It can be seen in fig. 2 that the atmosphere soil system under the chosen assumption of Td=20 K has only 1 equilibrium point, which is stable, and which will be overrun by the pressure generated by the vaporized polar cap. Thus, by the time the process is brought to a halt, an atmosphere with a total pressure of about 300 mbar, or 4.4 pounds per square inch, can be brought into being. Also shown in Fig. 2 is the day-night average temperature that will result in Mars' tropical regions (Tmax) during summertime. It can be seen that the 273 K freezing point of water will be approached. With the addition of modest ongoing artificial greenhouse efforts, it can be exceeded.

The assumption of Td=20 is optimistic, however, and the location of the equilibrium convergence point (point C in fig. 2) is very sensitive to the value chosen for Td. In fig.3 we show what happens if values of Td=25 and Td=30 are assumed. In these cases, the convergence point moves from 300 mb at Td=20 to 31 and 16 mb for Td=25 and Td=30 respectively. (The value of the Treg curve in fig. 3 was calculated under the assumption of Td=25; it varies from this value by a degree or two for Td=20 or 30.) Such extraordinary sensitivity of the final condition to the unknown value of Td may appear at first glance to put the entire viability of the terraforming concept at risk. However in fig 3 we also show (dotted line) the situation if artificial greenhouse methods are employed to maintain Treg at a temperature 10 K above those produced by the CO2 outgassing itself. It can be seen that drastic improvements in the final T and P values are effected for the Td=25 and 30 cases, with all three cases converging upon final states with Mars possessing atmospheres with several hundred millibars pressure.



Fig. 3 An induced 10 K rise in regolith temperature can counter effect of Td variations. Data shown assumes a planetary volatile inventory of 500 mb CO2.

In figs 4,5,6, and 7 we show the convergence condition pressure and maximum seasonal average temperature in the Martian tropics resulting on either a "poor" Mars, possessing a total supply of 500 mb of CO2 (50 mb of CO2 in the polar cap and 444 mb in the regolith), or a "rich" Mars possessing 1000 mb of CO2 (100 mb in the polar cap and 894 mb in the regolith). different curves are shown under the assumptions that either no sustained greenhouse effort is mounted after the initial polar cap release, or that continued efforts are employed to maintain the planet's mean temperature 5, 10 or 20 degrees above the value produced by the CO2 atmosphere alone. It can be seen that if a sustained effort is mounted to keep an artificial DT of 20 degrees in place, then a tangible atmosphere and acceptable pressures can be produced even if Td has a pessimistic value of 40 K.

*note all fo the graphs and chars are misisng so i guess you need to read over it all agian
 
perhaps they ar elow- but if anyone was goign to know what was going to work in this case, one woudl have to assume it would be Robert M. Zubrin. of Pioneer Astronautics, and more importantlly,Christopher P. McKay. of NASA Ames Research Center.

with those crednetials in mind, i have a grea tdeal of repsect fo r the work these two guys presente don that page.
 
Yeah, but I don't think any of them are talking about having a breathable atmosphere, at least in the near term.

And I'm still not getting where they got the ground CO2 data
 
I'd assume they got the data from some of those federallyu funded contraptions we americans seem to enjoy sending up thier every once in awhile :p
 
Xen said:
I'd assume they got the data from some of those federallyu funded contraptions we americans seem to enjoy sending up thier every once in awhile :p
IIRC, we've recieved very little information on levels of volitile sources of CO2. ;)

A lot of thier ideas depend on CO2 levels, if it's not as high as the expect it's not going to work well.
 
Can anyone have a planet for their suggestions??
Gravity is the main obstacle, anyone got a solution??
 
Perfection said:
Well, in the case of Venus the gravity is great! Remember though that space based colonization is not an easy feat either, and i think it would be easier to terraform Venus and Mars then it would be to house its population potential in space.
If there are believeable theories on the possibility of terraforming Mars, I'm not sure about Venus.

It still takes great energy to take off and land on a planet. A self-sustaining, expansive asteroid mining project and space colony building could potentially be cheaper than planet landing/ascension merry-go-round.

Also, there are not many terraforming candidates in the solar system (mars?).
 
Perfection said:
IIRC, we've recieved very little information on levels of volitile sources of CO2. ;)
I bet you thier in the same files that they keep the other secret so fthe universe in ;)

A lot of thier ideas depend on CO2 levels, if it's not as high as the expect it's not going to work well.

well, couldn we just hike up CO2 levals the old fashioned way- pollute-pollute-pollute?
 
Aphex_Twin said:
It still takes great energy to take off and land on a planet. A self-sustaining, expansive asteroid mining project and space colony building could potentially be cheaper than planet landing/ascension merry-go-round.
Well, if the planet becomes self sustainable we wouldn't need to take off and land as much.

Aphex_Twin said:
Also, there are not many terraforming candidates in the solar system (mars?).
Very true, only Mars and Venus have much hope in terms of terraforming, but if it's cheaper per person then space living, why shouldn't we take the oppurtunity, and then do space colonies if we need more room.

Xen said:
I bet you thier in the same files that they keep the other secret so fthe universe in ;)
Right... :rolleyes:

Xen said:
well, couldn we just hike up CO2 levals the old fashioned way- pollute-pollute-pollute?
Nope, there's no fossil fuels on Mars to pollute with.
 
And how exactly would Venus be terraformed?
 
Perfection said:
Nope, there's no fossil fuels on Mars to pollute with.
Is that an assumption or do you have a link for that? I'm surprised we would know this but not how many nitrates are in the surface. (An alleged Mars meteor might show signs of past microbial life casting this in doubt, along with theories that oil is not a fossil fuel at all but instead bubbles up from somewhere inside the earth.)
 
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