Terrorist attack in France at a newspaper office: at least 11 dead.

[luiz]

Again, it's one thing to say that 'France has historically had a majority of Catholics, so many French people share Catholic customs' and quite another to say 'being Muslim (or anything but Catholic) makes you less French'. The effect of the current situation is the latter.

I disagree. Muslims can have that same degree of "cultural Catholicism" as regular French atheists and agnostics.

Edit: and it should be noted that a certain anti-Catholicism, or anti-clericalism, is also part of French identity. Just like both Islamism and anti-Islamism are part of Turkish identity.

 

[Rashiminos]

To be fair, how many of you people, when you were kids, if given the option to choose between vegetarian and non-vegetarian food at school, how many would choose the former option? I wanna see a forest of hands, people!

On some days vegan was the better option, but on most it wasn't.

 

[bhsup]

In this very real war, the United States, France and other great democracies stand for a set of values, including a commitment to free expression that covers blasphemy. This principle, unlike rules relating to obscenity or incitement to violence, is unqualified. Government cannot be granted the right to restrict blasphemy because it should not be granted the right to define orthodoxy. Permitting legal space for blasphemy is inherent to free expression and to freedom of religion, which also means freedom for the rudely irreligious.

There is no “but.” There is an “and.” While the protection of blasphemy is required by democratic values, it does not exhaust those values. Civility is also an important democratic virtue. Our ideal of democracy is not an endless cable television shouting match. It is a free society in which citizens have a decent regard for the rights and views of others. This requires a measure of self-restraint, something we teach to our children as tolerance and manners. And such self-restraint is not self-censorship; it is respect. A free country should unapologetically defend the right to jeer and taunt. This does not require everyone in a free country to find jeering and taunting admirable.

I just thought it was worth putting here.

Michael Gerson

 

[HannibalBarka]

But some degree of "cultural Catholicism" is part of French identity, just like a degree of "cultural Protestantism" is part of Dutch identity, even though most people there are not religious at all.

It's the same in Latin America. In Brazil I have Jewish and Muslim friends who have some "cultural Catholicism" in them. They say expressions like "Nossa senhora! [Our Lady!]" when shocked by something. They celebrate Christmas and Easter and so on.

Catholicism is part of what forged French identity. Being secular has nothing to do with denying this.

And I fully agree with that. that is why I consider Christmas a "cultural" holiday and not a religious one any more. Now that being said, there are other holidays in France that has zero cultural meaning and are purely Christian (like that famous august 15th). those are still holidays because when they were voted holidays, it were voted so because of religious reasons.
There are however other holidays for other religions like Kippur for Jews and Aid for Muslims that are no only religious but mostly cultural holidays because even non believers still celebrate them. I find it a little bit weird to have those not becoming holidays while august 15 is. It's not going againt Laicité to do so, because they are not just religious holidays anymore but cultural ones.
take for exemple my own family. My wife is a native of Brittany and am a native of Tunisia. We're both atheist. She grew up celebrating Christmas as I grew up celebrating Aid. now we're still celebrating both (though Christmas is by far the most important), not because we believe in JC or Allah , just because it's "culturaly muslims" celebrate Aid, and "culturally Christians" celebrate Christmas. We do not celebrate august 15th nor do we celebrate Hijra new year because it's purely religious.

 

[luiz]

And I fully agree with that. that is why I consider Christmas a "cultural" holiday and not a religious one any more. Now that being said, there are other holidays in France that has zero cultural meaning and are purely Christian (like that famous august 15th). those are still holidays because when they were voted holidays, it were voted so because of religious reasons.
There are however other holidays for other religions like Kippur for Jews and Aid for Muslims that are no only religious but mostly cultural holidays because even non believers still celebrate them. I find it a little bit weird to have those not becoming holidays while august 15 is. It's not going againt Laicité to do so, because they are not just religious holidays anymore but cultural ones.
take for exemple my own family. My wife is a native of Brittany and am a native of Tunisia. We're both atheist. She grew up celebrating Christmas as I grew up celebrating Aid. now we're still celebrating both (though Christmas is by far the most important), not because we believe in JC or Allah , just because it's "culturaly muslims" celebrate Aid, and "culturally Christians" celebrate Christmas. We do not celebrate august 15th nor do we celebrate Hijra new year because it's purely religious.

Agreed, and if Islam ever becomes a big enough part of French identity, either religiously or culturally, there's no reason stuff like the Aid shouldn't become a holiday.

But France has a legacy of Catholicism which it simply does not have of Islam. You will find far more Cathedrals than Mosques. You will find streets, neighborhoods and whole cities named after Catholic Saints. This is not a breach of secularism, nor even a cultural thing. It's the legacy of being a Catholic country for well over a millenia. You don't erase in that in a few decades or even a century.

It's the same with holidays very few people celebrate like August 15th. It's a legacy of over a millenia of Catholicism, not an imposition of faith.

 

[Mise]

Now of course, your argument about it being a regulatory requirement is something else more relevant to the situation :

Regulatory requirements would mean religious doctrine would dictate laws in areligious institution, so that's a no.
Recommendations would be ok, as long as it doesn't hamper the food quality (which, for the record, I see no reason why it would, so no obvious problem) and doesn't increase noticeably the cost.

You say it's "areligious", but clearly the current law allows schools to favour specific religions if it wants to. I.e. to become a defacto Christian-only school, by preventing Jews and Muslims from attending through its school meal policy. The regulation I am proposing is made to prevent schools from becoming defacto Christian schools. Current laws allow schools to in effect exclude pupils based on religion; it is easy to construct a law that would prevent this, and in doing so, preserve and reinforce secularity in schools.

In any case, it's pretty obvious that this law would benefit schoolchildren and only disadvantage racists. It seems like a no-brainer to me. I just don't see the downside.

 

[Steph]

You know that the 15th of August was the National Day during the 1st and 2nd Empire because it is the St Napoleon, and Napoleon was born the 15th of August?
It is also the date of the signature of the Concordat.

So it is far from obvious that this "holyday" is actually a religious holyday....

I don't know many people who celebrate it for religious reason anymore. Easter is much more important I think.

 

[Mise]

I haven't really been following how the conversation has gone, but isn't the point merely that it is easier to be a Catholic in France than to be a Jew or Muslim? I mean we all understand why that might be the case, and it all makes perfect sense (as you would expect when something is true), but the effect is that it's easier for a French person to be Catholic than to be Jewish or Muslim.

 

[luiz]

I haven't really been following how the conversation has gone, but isn't the point merely that it is easier to be a Catholic in France than to be a Jew or Muslim? I mean we all understand why that might be the case, and it all makes perfect sense (as you would expect when something is true), but the effect is that it's easier for a French person to be Catholic than to be Jewish or Muslim.

And there's nothing wrong with that. At any rate some religions are just harder than others. It's pretty tough to be a Jain, for instance.

 

[Flying Pig]

I haven't really been following how the conversation has gone, but isn't the point merely that it is easier to be a Catholic in France than to be a Jew or Muslim? I mean we all understand why that might be the case, and it all makes perfect sense (as you would expect when something is true), but the effect is that it's easier for a French person to be Catholic than to be Jewish or Muslim.

And that part of the reason it is easier to be Catholic than Muslim is because of the way the laws are set up. Which makes it difficult to see the logic in any cry of 'the state does not accommodate religion'. The reason why they've ended up with a double standard is to a degree irrelevant - the fact is that they have.

 

[HannibalBarka]

You know that the 15th of August was the National Day during the 1st and 2nd Empire because it is the St Napoleon, and Napoleon was born the 15th of August?
It is also the date of the signature of the Concordat.

So it is far from obvious that this "holyday" is actually a religious holyday....

I don't know many people who celebrate it for religious reason anymore. Easter is much more important I think.

well that's what I am saying. August 15th means nothing (a part from very few minority among Catholics) and is still a public holiday, when Youm Kippur and Aid are far more important to many French people and not necessarily just because of religious reasons, are not. All this because Holidays were set up in a period when France was "mono religious".
If we compare this to food, if French public school cantines would have their menu set up in in the 19th century than we'd be still having "pot au feu, galette bretonne, cassoulet, choucroute and beurre nantais" and that's it, no pizza, no paeilla no couscous (not even frites !!!) when those are today in the top list of best dishes in France. 19th century France is not 2015th and I really don't see why updating things like public holidays to take into account the new France is going against Laicité, especially when some of the proposed holidays are not just religious as I mentioned.

 

[Marla_Singer]

If you say you are not Christian, how would you defined yourself?
In my case, I'm not an active Christian (since I go to Church only a few times each year, to go with the familly in some occasion like Christmas or a wedding), but when I was little I had some Christian education/background. It's only later when I grew up that I became agnostic leaning toward atheism. So how di you avoid that?

I'm born from Atheist parents myself, so the fact I'm Atheist as a result isn't really phenomenal.

As a kid, I remember having asked once to my mother after school "Mum, who is God?". And I still remember her answer : "An imaginary friend invented by some to be less scared of death".

All my grand parents were Atheist (3 of them from Catholic background and 1 from a Lutheran background). I haven't been baptized, and I really have minimal knowledge about catholicism.

Of course, I entered more often in a church than in a synagogue or a mosquee considering there are much more of them in France and in Europe, but I always have the same feeling that I'm "alien to the stuff" no matter the type of religious building I get in.

 

[Akka]

I find it a little bit weird to have those not becoming holidays while august 15 is. It's not going againt Laicité to do so, because they are not just religious holidays anymore but cultural ones.

When was the last time a religious day was voted as holiday ?
I'll tell you when : 1886 (and they were more social holidays, as the strictly speaking religious one was the previous day).

"religious" holidays are a thing of the past. As you said yourself, most people don't even know why the holidays exists. It's just become habits by now.
Amusingly, the opposite is true for civil holidays : new year, 1st and 8th may, 11th november and 14th july and their reasons are known by basically everyone.

Actually, all this kind of further the point that catholicism has no legal advantage, but left a cultural and social print in the country - no problem for me here.

You say it's "areligious", but clearly the current law allows schools to favour specific religions if it wants to.

No.

In any case, it's pretty obvious that this law would benefit schoolchildren and only disadvantage racists. It seems like a no-brainer to me. I just don't see the downside.

Then maybe just read the answers made again.

I haven't really been following how the conversation has gone, but isn't the point merely that it is easier to be a Catholic in France than to be a Jew or Muslim?

Maybe a bit. If you are French first and fits in the cultural norm that religion is something to be kept private, and adapt your religious behaviour accordingly, then nobody is going to bother you with your religion (in fact, 99 % of people won't even know nor care about your religion).

If you act contrary to cultural norms and uphold your religion above the rules of the state, then yeah you're going to have troubles, and yeah in this case it'll probably be easier to be christian. But then going against cultural norms is always going to make your life harder regardless of the country, and honestly I have little sympathy for people who try to impose their culture over the culture of the country they migrate to.

And that part of the reason it is easier to be Catholic than Muslim is because of the way the laws are set up. Which makes it difficult to see the logic in any cry of 'the state does not accommodate religion'. The reason why they've ended up with a double standard is to a degree irrelevant - the fact is that they have.

You really seem to have a problem differenciating "laws favour no religion" and "some religions clash more with the laws and the cultural norms of the country".

We also have laws against polygamy. These laws were voted because our culture disapprove of polygamy, and this disapproval certainly have roots in the cultural (nearly all cultures in Western Europe were monogamous) and catholic past of the country.
Does that mean that these laws are discrimination toward Muslims and Mormonts ? Or just that these are the laws of the country, which are set regardless of the religion of everyone, and just happen to clash more with some religions than others ?

 

[Steph]

well that's what I am saying. August 15th means nothing (a part from very few minority among Catholics) and is still a public holiday, when Youm Kippur and Aid are far more important to many French people and not necessarily just because of religious reasons, are not. All this because Holidays were set up in a period when France was "mono religious".

First, as I demonstrated, the 15th of August is not necessarily a holyday for religious reason.
And the fact it was set up when France was "mono religious" is irrelevent.
Because then the 14th of July should be cancelled, it was before we had muslim. Same for November 11... Few muslims in 1918.
15th of August is just there for historical reason, and people don't want to change it.
Some for Sunday: we have one day a week to rest (actually two). It started the Sunday for religious reason.
And it is still this day for practical and historical reason: people would not be happy to work on Sunday, and be free in thursday if their kids are at school on Thursday and not on Sunday!
No School on Sunday... May be initially because of religion, but that's now dozens of years old. And changing it would be very difficult, because all the kids and most parents, have this schedule. We could change it to Monday, but then it should be changed for everyone at the same time.

All this comes from a long historical set up and tradition, it has very little to do with religion now.

So there is no double standard with Laicité there. It would be like saying we are against Muslim because the official language in France is French and not Arabic.

 

[Steph]

Amusingly, the opposite is true for civil holidays : new year, 1st and 8th may, 11th november and 14th july and their reasons are known by basically everyone.

Well, some people still believe 14th of July is Bastille Day...

 

[Marla_Singer]

well that's what I am saying. August 15th means nothing (a part from very few minority among Catholics) and is still a public holiday, when Youm Kippur and Aid are far more important to many French people and not necessarily just because of religious reasons, are not. All this because Holidays were set up in a period when France was "mono religious".

I agree with that. Personally I've always found weird that our national holidays were essentially religious considering we are a secular country, but apparently both the Catholics and the Communists were historically attached to that: the first ones for religion and the second ones because that made more off-work days.

Probably the better would be to have secular holidays like the Americans have for the most. But I think it would make sense to replace crappy things I have no idea what they mean like "jeudi de l'ascension" or "lundi de pentecôte" with Yom Kippour and Aid El Kebir.

Unfortunately, I do realize that there are people around who believe that the Muslims will take over France, they even write books about how. So I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to stimulate their fantasies about that.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Well, some people still believe 14th of July is Bastille Day...

14th of July is indeed Bastille Day.
That can't be put in question, The Bastille was actually taken on that day.

Now whether that holiday celebrates the Fête de la Fédération or the Bastille Day is a real question with no good answer. According to the French Presidency website, we celebrate both:
http://www.elysee.fr/la-presidence/la-fete-nationale-du-14-juillet/

And for the matter, the bicentenary was celebrated in 1989, not in 1990. So...

 

[Mise]

No.

Then maybe just read the answers made again.

I've read all of your posts, Akka, but none of them answer them to my satisfaction. The only "downside" appears to be that it violates the sacred, unassailable, unquestionable French tradition of Laicite, which appears to me no stronger an argument than when Americans refuse to regulate guns because of its constitution and culture of gun ownership.

 

[Flying Pig]

I've read all of your posts, Akka, but none of them answer them to my satisfaction. The only "downside" appears to be that it violates the sacred, unassailable, unquestionable French tradition of Laicite, which appears to me no stronger an argument than when Americans refuse to regulate guns because of its constitution and culture of gun ownership.

It's worse than that, because we've already established that laicité isn't even supposed to be absolute, or at least never has been. I can't really think of a fair comparison. And I never thought I'd be comparing the Tea Party in a positive light with... well, anything.

No School on Sunday... May be initially because of religion, but that's now dozens of years old. And changing it would be very difficult, because all the kids and most parents, have this schedule. We could change it to Monday, but then it should be changed for everyone at the same time.

I agree that changing it would be ridiculous, but it would be equally silly to pretend that it doesn't happen and react in shock when people ask for some sort of accommodation to celebrate an alternative holy day, shouting from the rooftops that French schools don't facilitate religious observance.

 

[Akka]

I agree with that. Personally I've always found weird that our national holidays were essentially religious considering we are a secular country, but apparently both the Catholics and the Communists were historically attached to that: the first ones for religion and the second ones because that made more off-work days.

Actually, speaking from personal experience, it took me decades to actually bother to look at the holidays and realize that several of them were from religion.
I just thought "it's a day off... because reasons".

Probably the better would be to have secular holidays like the Americans have for the most. But I think it would make sense to replace crappy things I have no idea what they mean like "jeudi de l'ascension" or "lundi de pentecôte" with Yom Kippour and Aid El Kebir.

Unfortunately, I do realize that there are people around who believe that the Muslims will take over France, they even write books about how. So I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to stimulate their fantasies about that.

No thanks. Adding holidays for religious reasons is a no-no. We have a few, which are now kept, as you said, for traditionnal reasons, so I don't mind, but adding one for religious reason would be a pretty ugly breach of the State-Church separation.

Feel free to add any kind and any number of non-religious holidays, though. I don't mind the days off.