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Testing out CxxC vs Metros for Space Race ability

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by Othniel, Jun 7, 2008.

  1. Othniel

    Othniel fighting for Achsah

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    First test game is underway. It's about time, I'd say! ;)

    First, I spent some time in the editor making sure I had the test scenario setup correctly. Using the map Optional provided (I posted the link a while back), I made just a couple of minor changes.

    List of Edits:
    • Added aluminum to start continent and deleted aluminum from nearby island
    • Removed Civ traits from Portugal
    • Made the Game tile near start to have a grass underlay rather than a plains underlay
    • Unchecked "Reveal Map"
    • Checked boxes for default rules and Victory Conditions

    That done, this game is ready to go. :bounce:

    Get the scenario loaded up, make some setup selections:



    I didn't put much thought in the preselected rivals besides making sure they weren't Science civs.

    Click the circle and the game is started.



    Notice that we are the ...Portuguese. No civ traits mentioned because we don't have any!

    Seeing no reason to move the settler, Lisbon is built in place.




    Worker will probably move to game and start chop-->irrigation sequence.

    Before I play any further, I'm posting my proposed dotmap for public comment. This screenshot was extracted from the editor. I'm going to be playing the game with the editor running so that I can always see what the terrain is. Already it's a weird feeling knowing the map ahead of time...

    Dotmap:

    Zoomed out...



    and then close up...


    I think I want to settle the black dot near the cow as the first priority.

    My opening strategy will roughly be this:
    Build order: Warrior --> Warrior (chop-aided) --> Settler (timed when we grow to size 3) --> Granary (chop-aided)
    Research: max on Writing, going for Republic sling

    Early goal is to get capital into a 6-turn settler factory, possibly making it a 6-turn axe-settler factory, depending on the shield potential. Get to Republic, make an army, and conquer the continent.

    I'm considering allowing suicide runs. On further thought, they don't seem like that much of a luck factor. The suicide passage involves just 1 risky turn to get to the other continent.

    Attached are the 4000BC save and the scenario final BIQ file.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Aabraxan

    Aabraxan Mid-level Micromanager

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    Thanks for doing this test, Othniel. I'm looking forward to watching this play out.
     
  3. darski

    darski Regent in Training

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    It's nice to see the map and get an initial idea of what is where. I'm not saying this will be the definitive study on city placement but it sure will make discussion interesting. (What??? no popcorn smilie :thumbsdown: ...:lol:)
     
  4. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    You'll end up wasting some of the shields from the chop since you'll use it for a warrior. I'd train a spearman instead or build the granary earlier or something else than a 10 shield warrior.
     
  5. Othniel

    Othniel fighting for Achsah

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    The chop will only waste 1 shield, an acceptable waste I think. What will happen is,
    (1) Move worker to game, warrior done in 4.
    (2) Start chop, warrior done in 3
    (3) Chopping...
    (4) Chopping...
    (5) Warrior done, start new warrior.
    (5a) On the interturn, worker finishes chop, 10 shields to the box, now I am working a 3f, 0s game tile for the next turn.
    (6) Second warrior completes

    Only shield that gets wasted is the city center tile. Benefits are I get my high food tile rolling towards irrigation faster. The granary is an interesting option, but I think I want to get out a settler before the granary.

    Question: On Emperor, is it the second or third citizen that starts out discontent? Can't recall...
     
  6. TheOverseer714

    TheOverseer714 Overseer

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    The only problem with black dot is that it violates the strict CxxC pattern, giving the capital a smidge more space. Now for me, strict CxxC is rather silly(as in I never go quite that far), but for those who insist on strictness to validate the "sanctity" of the test, it might be. I guess it doesn't really matter, just a devil's advocate type of thing, the devil being Pyrrhos:D
     
  7. Aabraxan

    Aabraxan Mid-level Micromanager

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    It's the second.
     
  8. Othniel

    Othniel fighting for Achsah

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    Thanks Aabra. Knowing that, I'll probably keep the second warrior back as MP. After all, I have insider info :crazyeye: on where to locate the other civs with my scout warrior. Unless he gets popped by barbs, the first warrior should be a sufficient contact gatherer.

    :yup:

    My thought was, "What pattern would I use if this were another of my solo games". Without a doubt, I would settle the black dot just where it is at. Moving it into a strict CxxC pattern would cause it to lose the cow and the river.

    And, this loose settling pattern is what the CxxC folks have been arguing for all along.
     
  9. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    no approach will be valid for ALL playing styles any of us use. i am very grateful though and expect a lot of insight into some mechanics of two very archetypal variations.

    for forest chops that do not fully fit with the production cycle of a build i recommend to aplly "wealth" for (here) one turn.

    regarding "non-rigid" CxxC what do you think about dark blue dot 1 SE as well? you gain access to the sea while the 2nd ring city there wouldn´t be adjacent to the river any more. still, but it could work those 2 BGs in the very SE much earlier... i would do that in a single game, i guess (if i had spies of the same quality and knew the map that well at least :) )

    and btw, this is my DOS (declaration of subscription) after i had already visited this thread before several times and will follow it for sure.
     
  10. Othniel

    Othniel fighting for Achsah

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    Found some time to play this evening. :bounce:

    Note again that my turnlogs will be detailed for this game. Reading them closely will probably get a little boring and confusing. ;) They are really more for my sake anyway, so I can easily duplicate my early game strategy for the Metro attempt. Of course, the turnlogs also help other players (and me) to see how my game decisions affect the results of this test. I will make attempts to post Summary sections along the way so the more casual readers can get a quick info hit on how the game is going.

    If you skipped the big blurb above this, you, dear reader, should just scan the pics below for your update. ;)


    4000BC Settle in place. Worker to game. Warrior build started. Max research on writing.

    3800 Warrior produced, heads N-NW toward next AI starting locale.

    3750 Chop out another warrior, which stays in the city as a military policeman. Worker begins to irrigate the game. Settler build started.




    3550 Game irrigated, worker starts on road.

    3450 Meet Netherlands. They are up Bronze Working.

    3400 Worker finishes road. Spend some time debated how to use the worker next. In the end, decide to move to another grass forest and start a chop. Perhaps I'll uncover another BG.

    The chop should work out well as the settler will be built exactly one turn before the chop finishes. Unfortunately I can't get the settler out sooner--such as on the turn Lisbon grows to size 3, so I decide to max fpt in the capital until the settler is popped. Work the river BG and the game rather than a forest and the game.

    3350 Worker starts the chop. Warrior (renamed Vasco EagleEyes) is heading due north toward next AI. Writing is currently due in 24 turns.

    3300 Lisbon grows. Bump lux to 10% to prevent the riot. Settler is due in 2 turns with the new citizen working a river forest.

    3250 Keep working a forest instead of a BG with the third citizen. Working the BG would be +1fpt, but the forest provides +1gpt. Lisbon shouldn't be too large before the granary completes, so max commerce is the way to go at this time.

    3200 Settler --> Granary. Move settler toward cow escorted by the MP warrior (renamed City Watchman). Lisbon works the game for max commerce and growth.

    3150 Chop forest, but no BG. Worker roads.

    3100 Vasco EagleEyes spots a purple border through some thick jungle foliage. Nice catch, Vasco. With no barbs in sight, the City Watchman (warrior) moves back toward Lisbon while the new settler moves into settling position.

    3050 On the IBT, Netherlands founds their second city, Rotterdam...right next to a volcano. :mischief:

    Purple Beef-eaters is founded near the cow. While waiting for the hamburgers to grill, we grab some popcorn and wait for the start of the fireworks show across the valley in Rotterdam. Work started on a warrior.




    Vasco EagleEyes moves inside the dark purple borders but spots no units or town yet. Using Shift-D, we pop up the diplo screen and dial up The Iroquois. El Mohawked One is up Bronze Working and Warrior Code.

    No worries, we'll get all the techs we want when we do the Republic sling and trade around.

    Do some microing. Lisbon is one turn from growing and we need only 2 food to do so. Using the game would waste two food althogh it gives +1gpt. We could switch to a river BG, losing a commerce but gaining a shield and eliminating the food waste. However, if we work the BG, the governor will pick the game on growth because we would only be doing +2fpt. If we worked the game to start with, the governor would pick a forest on growth as we would be doing +4fpt. That means we actually lose 1 shield (forest vs BG) by NOT working the game. So we work the game and accept the food loss. An interesting little bit of microing strategy, in my opinion.

    Writing due in 16 turns now that we have 2 contacts.

    3000 Move City Watchman back into Lisbon just in time to quell some civil unrest. Have Lisbon work BG and Game for max fpt. Move worker to river forest to start another chop. Vasco moves toward last AI start spot on this landmass.

    Stop here for the evening. All the info logging is going to make for slow playing. The fear of making stupid mistakes in a public game also makes me play slower. :lol:

    home sweet home


    and the bigger picture...



    Interesting idea. Let me think on it.

    A Pro, as you say, would be letting the blue dot city get coastal access. The con is that it would cramp any second city on that little river. Also, where the blue dot is at means it only has access to 2 coast tiles anyway, so it wouldn't be "wasting" a bunch of tiles by not being able to build a harbor.
     

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  11. darski

    darski Regent in Training

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    I have more or less started my Korean test and it plays very differently with wide spacing. I will be very interested in seeing yours work out. Wide spacing just hurts my little Scottish heart (((sigh)))
     
  12. Othniel

    Othniel fighting for Achsah

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    Sorry for the lack of updates here. I've been battling a series of health issues and Civ hasn't been a priority. Hopefully I will have an update by the weekend but we shall see.
     
  13. Aabraxan

    Aabraxan Mid-level Micromanager

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    Hope the health issues improve, Othniel. Clearly, that's the priority here.
     
  14. criminiminal

    criminiminal Despotic Jingoist

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  15. darski

    darski Regent in Training

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    Be well soon. Will be praying for you.
     
  16. Othniel

    Othniel fighting for Achsah

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    Thanks for all the best wishes. :thanx:

    I've been having severe headaches and other scary neurological symptoms. Thankfully, CT scans of my brain haven't revealed any issues. They actually looked rather blank. :D

    But the good news is, my headache has let up enough that I can sit upright in a chair and not feel like my brain is going to explode. With that in mind, pardon the pun, I might just get some Civving started again. :bounce:
     
  17. darski

    darski Regent in Training

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    You take care of you... yah hear!
    :)

    :cool:
     
  18. anaxagoras

    anaxagoras Chieftain

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    I sincerely hope things get better for you Othniel. We'll be fine out here, so just take your time and feel better. Good luck!
     
  19. TheOverseer714

    TheOverseer714 Overseer

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    Is Civ good for your health? Probably not. Having a reason to get up is, and civ is one of mine... Glad you feel better.
     
  20. Aabraxan

    Aabraxan Mid-level Micromanager

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    Othniel, I do hope your health has improved. Has it, by any chance, improved enough to make progress on this? :D
     

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