Isn't it also true that if the plains are a vast farm, we can crowd them in much closer than if we were to try to use them as semi-productive? With 3 specialists per farm, we only need three grassland tiles available for working -- in fact, why can't we cram them in even closer together? But even the suggested placement is much closer than what would be required if we were to extract the same or more beakers with 6+ citizens/city working tiles. Assuming we can fit 50% more farming towns, the semi-productive towns would have to make 9*1.5 or 14 (rounded) bpt to break even.
TGOM 02 - The Grumpy Old Monk and the Ancient Crone go to Alpha Centauri
- Thread starter Bede
- Start date
General Mayhem
Monarch
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2004
- Messages
- 329
I should have this up by late Sunday afternoon, RL/matches in another game took up a lot of Saturday, so I haven't played any turns yet. I personally plan on settling the south first, if we don't want to do that please say so.
gmaharriet
Ancient Crone
Sounds like a good plan to me to get that area before the AI moves north.General Mayhem said:
cleverhandle
King
Go for it.
General Mayhem
Monarch
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2004
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- 329
One other thing I just noticed when I opened the save is that we haven't decided whether we are going for TGL or not. I'd say its a tossup, in some games it helps the human keep up, in others it ends up slowing the tech pace down. I'd like to hear Bede's opinion on this before I go any further.
Admiral Kutzov
Idiot Emeritus
lurker's comment: how many shields will the GL cost? what else could you have done with those? do you need it to catch up or keep up in techs
cleverhandle
King
I see no reason to go for TGL. We have a strong economy and trade position. Put those shields into settler pairs and infrastructure.General Mayhem said:
Forget the Library. It's only benefit to us is denial and I'd rather somebody else built it so they would have cash for us to sell them what we learn. We won't have any trouble keeping up, the challenge is going to be keeping the others on a par with us.
I typically only build Great Buildings in the IA (ToE and Hoover) and maybe the powerhouse happiness stuff in the MA if I have the towns to do it and just happen to pick up the techs in a trade deal. Then of course I try to nail all the Modern wonders except for Longevity.
Don't forget to pull a settler out of Bedeville to get those fertile fields in the north into play.
I typically only build Great Buildings in the IA (ToE and Hoover) and maybe the powerhouse happiness stuff in the MA if I have the towns to do it and just happen to pick up the techs in a trade deal. Then of course I try to nail all the Modern wonders except for Longevity.
Don't forget to pull a settler out of Bedeville to get those fertile fields in the north into play.
gmaharriet
Ancient Crone
I'd say it would depend on the situation what would be done with an SGL. If no wars are pending soon (preventing our getting an MGL), I would probably try to save him for an MA tech that would save us gold and be useful for a longer period...Sun Tsu's, Leo's or even Smith's. If an early war were likely, I'd prefer the SofZ if I had ivory, but obviously the SGL would have to be used for something. Not sure if The GLib would be it.Conroe said:
cleverhandle
King
I thought it was the opposite way around - that MGL's prevented SGL's. Am I confused? I know that SGL's don't prevent further SGL's (having once had the good fortune of picking up 2 consecutive SGL's... on Writing and Philosophy with the Greeksgmaharriet said:
).But I'm with you - at this point, we're already through the worst of the tech race and TGL will be obsolete before too long. Sun Tzu's or Leo's would be my picks as well, the choice depending mostly on whether I felt like taking over the entire continent or not.
General Mayhem
Monarch
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2004
- Messages
- 329
Sorry guys, RL popped in, but I'll get the last 9 turns in later tonight. Thanks for clarifying on TGL.
gmaharriet
Ancient Crone
It's possible to get SGL's whether or not you have any other leader, but you can't get an MGL if another leader of either type is still around. You can, however, form an empty army with an MGL to be used later and then get another MGL.cleverhandle said:
I had a really fun Regent AW game where I had several full armies and several empties just waiting around for higher tech units...a very sweet spot to be in...got several SGL's as well. There's something to be said for playing at low levels where everything seems easier.
cleverhandle said:
Neither one of those are a bigger boost to taking over a continent than the Pyramids. Once out of Despotism and with a decent economy the limiting factor in producing settlers is population growth. Granaries help with that. And the limiting factor in taking over a continent is not military it is settlers.
Perhaps this is a dumb question. In fact, I'm almost sure it is, but what the heck...
What exactly goes into a "good economy" (in the civ sense -- please no Laffer curve debates
)? I just wonder because I see this term a lot on the boards and I want to make sure it means what I think it means. Is it more than cities big enough to have a decent number of citizens working tiles and infrastructure to make sure as many of those tiles as posible are fully developed? Do buildings factor into whether or not an economy is good apart from their maintenance cost? And what is the role of luxuries in evaluating an economy? I understand what luxuries do, but can you have a "good" economy without many luxuries -- or to put it another way, does having to use the lux tax slider inherently make an economy bad?
What exactly goes into a "good economy" (in the civ sense -- please no Laffer curve debates
)? I just wonder because I see this term a lot on the boards and I want to make sure it means what I think it means. Is it more than cities big enough to have a decent number of citizens working tiles and infrastructure to make sure as many of those tiles as posible are fully developed? Do buildings factor into whether or not an economy is good apart from their maintenance cost? And what is the role of luxuries in evaluating an economy? I understand what luxuries do, but can you have a "good" economy without many luxuries -- or to put it another way, does having to use the lux tax slider inherently make an economy bad?General Mayhem
Monarch
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2004
- Messages
- 329
Turn Log
Turn 0 (1000 B.C.)
Move settler towards the closest of Bede's south dots, change the mountie to a warrior in Salamanca, and also change Bedeville to an archer as per Bede's instructions of no mounties allowed. Check the pref's and notice
always re-negotiate deals is off, correct me if I'm wrong here Bede, but doesn't this help save a lot of headaches with deals going out?
Turn 1 (975 B.C.)
Lit comes in, set research to currency, due in 16. Since Bedeville was about to riot, I have to raise lux to 10%, which puts us at -4 gpt while running 90% research, but we have the treasury to support this for much longer than
it will take us to get currency. Whack the barb warrior that was fortified on a hill S of Salamanca with an archer. A barb horse appeared out of the fog during the IBT, so I have to move the worker that was SE of Salamanca to keep him from getting captured next turn.
Turn 2 (950 B.C.)
Salamanca builds warrior, starts worker, Mayhem city builds worker which goes out to build a road on the iron mountain, starts on barracks, Clever Springs builds warrior, start it on barracks and move the archer out to do
advanced barb suppression duties. Disband our worthless curragh in Harriet Bay to take 1 turn off the archer being built there. Archer to the S of Salamanca wacks the barb horse, so settler and worker are safe once again.
Turn 3 (925 B.C.)
Harriet Bay builds archer, start it on a Granary since with the tobacco I think it can be a second settler pump. This can be changed if needed. Bedeville builds an archer, start it on Settler. Move the settler into final position.
Turn 4 (900 B.C.)
Salamanca builds worker, starts on archer. Found Eotin Bay on Bede's first south dot:
Start it on a warrior since it won't grow fast enough to build a worker without shield wastage. Put Salamanca's worker to work on improving Harriet Bay to get it ready to become a settler pump.
Turn 5 (875 B.C.)
Not much, just moving archers around to suppress barbs, wack 1 horseman.
Turn 6 (850 B.C.)
Take out a barb camp in the north for 25 gold, but both archers are redlined.
Turn 7 (825 B.C.)
Who are these Zulu anyway? Bedeville builds settler, start it on another archer. Head the settler towards the south to claim the incense.
Turn 8 (800 B.C.)
Greeks start TOA and MOM, Egypt starts TOA. Salamanca builds archer, starts settler. Wack a barb camp in the south for another 25 gold.
Turn 9 (775 B.C.)
Barbs kill an archer in the north, so I start moving a few archers that way since there were at least 2 horses and a warrior near the barb camp. Eotin Bay finishes warrior, starts a worker.
Turn 10 (750 B.C.)
Archer moves, move the Bedeville settler towards the incense. Our minimap:
I apologise in advance for any MM'ing mistakes, I don't think I messed anything up too much, but I was rather tired while playing the last 9 turns. I have a worker in Harriet Bay that's destination is to irrigate the tobacco, and I have archers headed towards the barbarian camp to deal with it before it gets out of hand. Babylon just got Monarchy and Egypt has workers for sale, so I'll let the next player deal with trading, but I don't think we should do anything other than possibly buy Egypt's worker. Our warrior down south is about to get the boot from Alex, and he's pretty much trapped so I think its time to get rid of him.
The Save
Turn 0 (1000 B.C.)
Move settler towards the closest of Bede's south dots, change the mountie to a warrior in Salamanca, and also change Bedeville to an archer as per Bede's instructions of no mounties allowed. Check the pref's and notice
always re-negotiate deals is off, correct me if I'm wrong here Bede, but doesn't this help save a lot of headaches with deals going out?
Turn 1 (975 B.C.)
Lit comes in, set research to currency, due in 16. Since Bedeville was about to riot, I have to raise lux to 10%, which puts us at -4 gpt while running 90% research, but we have the treasury to support this for much longer than
it will take us to get currency. Whack the barb warrior that was fortified on a hill S of Salamanca with an archer. A barb horse appeared out of the fog during the IBT, so I have to move the worker that was SE of Salamanca to keep him from getting captured next turn.
Turn 2 (950 B.C.)
Salamanca builds warrior, starts worker, Mayhem city builds worker which goes out to build a road on the iron mountain, starts on barracks, Clever Springs builds warrior, start it on barracks and move the archer out to do
advanced barb suppression duties. Disband our worthless curragh in Harriet Bay to take 1 turn off the archer being built there. Archer to the S of Salamanca wacks the barb horse, so settler and worker are safe once again.
Turn 3 (925 B.C.)
Harriet Bay builds archer, start it on a Granary since with the tobacco I think it can be a second settler pump. This can be changed if needed. Bedeville builds an archer, start it on Settler. Move the settler into final position.
Turn 4 (900 B.C.)
Salamanca builds worker, starts on archer. Found Eotin Bay on Bede's first south dot:
Start it on a warrior since it won't grow fast enough to build a worker without shield wastage. Put Salamanca's worker to work on improving Harriet Bay to get it ready to become a settler pump.
Turn 5 (875 B.C.)
Not much, just moving archers around to suppress barbs, wack 1 horseman.
Turn 6 (850 B.C.)
Take out a barb camp in the north for 25 gold, but both archers are redlined.
Turn 7 (825 B.C.)
Who are these Zulu anyway? Bedeville builds settler, start it on another archer. Head the settler towards the south to claim the incense.
Turn 8 (800 B.C.)
Greeks start TOA and MOM, Egypt starts TOA. Salamanca builds archer, starts settler. Wack a barb camp in the south for another 25 gold.
Turn 9 (775 B.C.)
Barbs kill an archer in the north, so I start moving a few archers that way since there were at least 2 horses and a warrior near the barb camp. Eotin Bay finishes warrior, starts a worker.
Turn 10 (750 B.C.)
Archer moves, move the Bedeville settler towards the incense. Our minimap:
I apologise in advance for any MM'ing mistakes, I don't think I messed anything up too much, but I was rather tired while playing the last 9 turns. I have a worker in Harriet Bay that's destination is to irrigate the tobacco, and I have archers headed towards the barbarian camp to deal with it before it gets out of hand. Babylon just got Monarchy and Egypt has workers for sale, so I'll let the next player deal with trading, but I don't think we should do anything other than possibly buy Egypt's worker. Our warrior down south is about to get the boot from Alex, and he's pretty much trapped so I think its time to get rid of him.
The Save
eotinb said:
No such thing as a dumb question. Pointless commentary and irrelevant observations, now, ........
eotinb said:What exactly goes into a "good economy" (in the civ sense -- please no Laffer curve debates
Lots of factors make for a good economy: every worked field has a road; minimal waste (overruns, not red icons); worked fields are optimally developed: mines for shields and water for food so that the population grows at a good pace and building projects are completed when needed. These are three measures of a "good economy"; there are probably more.
eotinb said:
Certain buildings have a multiplier effect on production and commerce.
Marketplaces/banks/stock exchanges are the three comerce multipliers and each adds 50% to net unallocated gold per turn. Net gold per turn is the amount left after corruption and building maintenance in a town. Unallocated gold is the amount after research and entertainment are subtracted.If the total of your science and research allocations are 100%, there is no multiplier effect. If after corruption and building maintenance there are less than two gold per turn then the effect is infitesimal as the game calculator truncates decimals.
Libraires/universities/research labs are science budget multipliers. They operate on the portion of the budget allocated to science. So if the allocation is 0% then the lib/univ/lab have no effect. And just like the commerce multipliers if there are less than two allocated gold per turn then the effect is infitesimal.
Production multipliers are factories and power plants. They only work on unwasted shields.
eotinb said:
It makes it tougher to generate commerce surpluses which can be multiplied by buildings or applied to the science budget.
gmaharriet
Ancient Crone
Good set, General. Looks like we're moving along nicely.
I took a look at the save and only have one observation, which is more for my own education than any criticism of your MM as my recent focus for the past month has been on settler production. (Seems like I can't learn more than one thing at a time. *sigh*)
Salamanca is set for a settler in 2 with growth in 3. By moving a citizen from the forest to the unworked BG near Bedeville, it would change to settler and growth in 2, lowering our pop to 4 rather than only 3. I'm not clear on the calcs for a settler/archer factory, so Bede might have something else in mind, but it would seem to our advantage to have 1 more citizen working after the settler is produced. I'm still learning on this type of MM, so I could use any input on this.
I took a look at the save and only have one observation, which is more for my own education than any criticism of your MM as my recent focus for the past month has been on settler production. (Seems like I can't learn more than one thing at a time. *sigh*)
Salamanca is set for a settler in 2 with growth in 3. By moving a citizen from the forest to the unworked BG near Bedeville, it would change to settler and growth in 2, lowering our pop to 4 rather than only 3. I'm not clear on the calcs for a settler/archer factory, so Bede might have something else in mind, but it would seem to our advantage to have 1 more citizen working after the settler is produced. I'm still learning on this type of MM, so I could use any input on this.