TGOM 02 - The Grumpy Old Monk and the Ancient Crone go to Alpha Centauri

[General Mayhem]

:suicide:

I think that about sums what's about to happen up?

Also, where'd you get your advisors/skin from Bede?

 

[gmaharriet]

Geez! I lay down for a nap after dinner (all was quiet here on the board) and awakened at midnight to barbs howling at the gates.

Do not try to protect the outlying towns. Let the barbarians have their way with them. It will cost gold and shields and maybe some population. Once they sack a town they are gone, so it is a simple mattter of grin and bear it.

Are you saying that once they have sacked a town they will be gone forever? or do I still need to track down their camps to get rid of them at some point? That may sound like stupid questions, but I have kept barbs at sedentary since I was playing at Chieftain level, and I am ignorant except for a tiny bit of very recent practice on roaming barbs at regent level.

If I understand you correctly, I am to try to find the most useful ways to deplete our treasury, keep units as safe as possible, and send prayers to the RNG gods.

I'll take a look at the save and likely be back with more questions, but this is a "got it".

 

[gmaharriet]

Looking at this purely from a defensive viewpoint, I see 2 choices in attempting to save our settlers:

1. Move all 3 MW's and the settler in Scoutsville to the mountain just to the north and fortify, leaving Scoutsville open to the barbs.

2. Gather all of the above and the other settler and try to hunker down south in Harriet Bay, hoping the barbs will not come that far.

We really have zero defensive units, so I don't know how else to protect them. Also, should all the workers stop their tasks and be sent to the nearest town when any horse barbs come within one turn's move?

There will certainly be no problem in depleting our treasury. Here are the pre-turn trades available. With Lit thrown in Hammi will allow us 10gpt for our future research and nothing for embassies. I had to talk both Hammi and Alex out of taking my first born son. If we do not make this trade, just how much of our treasury are the barbs likely to steal?

I won't play this until tomorrow evening to allow as much advisory input as possible. Also, issuing a warning that my computer has been making strange noises and my mouse randomly unable to click on anything (even the start button). Should I crash completely, I have a few emails I can reach from my office (like Whomp and Admiral K) to let you know.

Pics in next post to prevent need for scrolling.

Edit: After more study of the save, I can find no sign of an ROP with Greece (or other civs either. I looked to be sure). Would that not show up in F4?

 

[gmaharriet]

 

[eotinb]

Looking at this purely from a defensive viewpoint, I see 2 choices in attempting to save our settlers:

1. Move all 3 MW's and the settler in Scoutsville to the mountain just to the north and fortify, leaving Scoutsville open to the barbs.

2. Gather all of the above and the other settler and try to hunker down south in Harriet Bay, hoping the barbs will not come that far.

In my experience, the barbs go for the nearest town. If you leave Scoutsville open to them, they won't bypass it to go for Harriet Bay.

We really have zero defensive units, so I don't know how else to protect them. Also, should all the workers stop their tasks and be sent to the nearest town when any horse barbs come within one turn's move?

Yes. Given a choice between a defended town and an undefended worker, barbs will go for the worker first. I'm not sure how they would choose between an undefended town and a worker.

There will certainly be no problem in depleting our treasury. Here are the pre-turn trades available. With Lit thrown in Hammi will allow us 10gpt for our future research and nothing for embassies. I had to talk both Hammi and Alex out of taking my first born son. If we do not make this trade, just how much of our treasury are the barbs likely to steal?

This is me asking a question to the rest of the team: Would it be better to build embassies first and then make a gold-depleting deal with the remaining gold? As for advice, I'd say make the one that allows us to hold on to Literature, which we can trade back for some of the gold we are losing once the barb threat has passed.

Edit: Question unrelated to Harriet's barb problem: Are we going for chivalry? Since knights aren't _that_ much better than MW, I thought we might want to continue being able to build the MWs. More generally, what is our research agenda for the Middle Ages?

 

[General Mayhem]

I just did a test setting barbs on raging, and left all my cities undefended. Once the barbs started showing up I started moving defended settlers and workers in front of them. What I found was rather interesting: they would just sit and fortify if it was only a worker (note: these were only warriors, not horsemen), while a settler they would attack if the terrain was favorable for their attack, while if the distance for them to attack a settler/worker pair vs attack an undefended city was the same they would either sit there and fortify or they would attack the settler pair. I did make sure to only use defense 1 units to guard the settlers/workers.

I guess my conclusion from this test is that if we want to lure the barbs to pillage a town keep all settlers and workers far away from both the town and the barbs.

As far as chivalry goes, I haven't checked the shield costs difference, but the extra defense of the knights has saved my butt on more than one occasion, so if we trigger our GA they would be nice to have.

 

[gmaharriet]

As far as chivalry goes, I haven't checked the shield costs difference, but the extra defense of the knights has saved my butt on more than one occasion, so if we trigger our GA they would be nice to have.

We won't trigger our GA unless we use our MW's, and it's cheaper to just build knights rather than do upgrades. Later it's much cheaper to upgrade knights to cavs when we get Military Tradition. If we should want to trigger our GA later and need more MW's to do it, we can still do that as any UU continues to be available prior to a GA.

I ran a quick test using one of our older saves, not trying to follow what Bede did (mostly just accepting whatever builds the computer suggested), but making sure we had a town near the barb area with a settler and a couple of MW's to sorta approximate our current situation. By moving the settler and MW's to a mountain outside the town, the barbs went after the town and ignored the settler completely. I purposely left as much gold in the treasury as possible to see what the barbs would go for, and they sure made big haul as I just sat back and watched, and they just kept coming back for more until they had it all. (I hope it isn't considered a cheat to do that, but I didn't have time to start a new game and get it that far, and I've been up all night as it is.) Then I tried emptying our treasury and doing it again, and they took all our gold 1 piece at a time (only had about 10), and then left, but the settler was still safe.

Based on that, I think I'll go with my option #1 unless Bede says otherwise. Also, based on that test, I guess we need to give up everything to Hammi so we at least have something to show for it, and if we don't give up Lit, I suspect he'll ask for as much as Alex did (Alex already has Lit).

Now if I can just figure out how to stay awake at work today.

 

[Bede]

Option 1 should work.

I concur with eotinb that holding onto Lit is our best choice. If Hammi trades Fuedalism to Alex (which will happen when Alex has the coin) we may get some of our cash back for Literature. Building the embassies will not help us much at the moment.

Once the first wave is passed make sure the Mounties get out there and start sweeping for camps. If we don't get the camps that spawned the little buggers they will keep coming.

You want to use as much gold in useful ways as possible. If the barbs pillage they will get it all, and if there is lots of gold they take it in bigger chunks. If they only take little chunks we can get it back when we bust the camps for 25g.

Sorry for the confusion in the log. I played a couple of extra turns just to get a feel for what GmH would be facing and opened embassies. Then when I wrote up the log I included the RoP that isn't there.

Good assessments, folks. 'Fraid I left a little bit of a pickle, er, "learning opportunity"

 

[gmaharriet]

er, "learning opportunity"

Yep, ya might say that!

Just checking in to let you guys know I'll be playing it tonight. Computer is running better since I switched my newer Intelli-Mouse to my ancient roller-ball type, but still making strange noises. For now I'll just focus on the barbs.

 

[General Mayhem]

If it starts sounding like a yetti, its time to buy a new HD...

 

[gmaharriet]

Preturn @ 350bc - Make the deal for Monotheism with Alex and get him down to 34gpt along with the 347g in our treasury. Bede said we were researching Engineering, but it says Feudalism so change to Eng at 10% with +3 for 50 turns.

IT - Babs complete the Great Wall. Barbs arrive in force outside both Scoutsville and Mayhem City.

1. 330bc - Move Scoutsville settler and the 3 mounties to the mountain N of Scoutsville. Move workers toward core area where possible.

IT - Bab warrior kills 1 barb S of Mayhem. Alex is annoyed with our trespassing and there is no option for an ROP (auto move). we lose a worker and warrior at Mayhem. Bab warrior kills 3 barb horses for us. Library is pillaged several times and several pieces of gold. Bedeville riots due to lack of gold for lux slider, hire scientist since we cannot hoard our gold. Cycle through other towns, but they are happy enough. Greeks are building the Great Light.

2. 310bc - Move land bridge archers to block, workers to inner chores, disband Blue Feather as he is trapped on a single square with nowhere to go.

IT - Hammi requests donation of Lit and we cave. Bab warrior slays an unseen barb for us (can we hire him???). Scoutsville ransacked for 1 gold and our galley abuilding is pillaged several times, more library pillaging in Mayhem. Harriet Bay swordsman -> mountie. Domestic Advisor says our treasury is low...yeah, 1 gold in treasurery and expenses of -2gpt. Babs started Great Lib and have Feudalism. We are up Mono on Cleo, but she only has 29g and the barbs would steal it anyway.

3. 290bc - worker & unit moves for safety. Shut down research completely and we are making +1gpt.

IT - Salamanca Archer -> Settler, Bedeville Sword -> Market. Babs complete the Colossus.

4. 270bc - safe worker moves, 2 mounties sent toward NE barb hunting. Archer from Sallie sent to escort Clever Spring barb to S/E home when it's done. 2 mounties escort northern settler toward wines. Harriet Bay settler moving N with Sword. Research set back to 10%.

IT - ~8 more barb horses coming from N mountains. Greeks & Egypt begin the Great Light. Hire scientist in Harriet Bay.

5. 250bc - Archer in N destroys barb camp. Settler with 2-mountie escort moves into place ready to settle with no barbs nearby. Move 1 mountie back to cover worker in N/E. Various cautious worker/unit moves.

IT - Scoutsville grows to 2 and unhappy. Shut off science, raise lux to 10% and put scientists back to work except for Scoutsville, which is not yet hooked up by road. This gets enough gold to allow 10% research once again.

6. 230bc - Napa Valley is founded near the wine -> worker. Since it will now be the nearest to the barb area, I will move the warriors out, sending 1 Mountie as MP toward Scoutsville and the other off ahunting. The other northern settler is just on the mountain SE of Scoutsville for heading toward the canal area and covered by the sword. Archers are posted in the area to (I hope) prevent new barb camps from forming. Reset research to 70%, or 31gpt, the precise amount in our treasury.

IT - Barb horse pillages Mayhem lib again. Our people want to build the Forbidden Palace. Another barb stack shows up at Mayhem. Clever Spgs Settler -> cat. Smelly Cat -> worker.

7. 210bc - worker sent to road to Scoutsville. Other worker/hunter moves. Mountie spots northern barb camp. Settler/Archer sent SE from Clever Spgs to cut off AI advance into East. Lower Sci to 10%, 0 in treasury, earning +2.

IT - Barbs running all over. Some head S and E from Clever Spgs, but then more show up. Salamanca settler -> sword, Harriet Bay mountie -> mountie. Greece gets feudalism.

8. 190bc - Mountie destroys barb camp, but 2 stacks of barbs were hiding just near. Send Sallie settler to Bedeville to start north. Move settler in Scoutsville N toward canal. MM sci to 60%, 28g at -26.

IT - Mayhem pillaged AGAIN,losing 1 pop & 6g. Mountie fends off 2 barb horses but dies bravely at the hands of the 3rd. I thought I was being so smart in evening out gpt with science, but we just lost our barracks in Sallie so changed production to cat.

9. 170bc - moving escorted settlers. Chasing barbs. Workers working. Lower sci to 10%. 10g and +2.

IT - Quiet for a change.

10. 150bc - moved escorted settlers. Horses moved within sight (2 tiles) of barb stack.

Notes: There are 2 settlers in the northern pic...one on the mountain S of the wines...one NNE of Venerable covered by a mountie. The 3rd settler is in the north/east pic under the archer SE of the iron mountain. Gotta be honest that I completely forgot to look at the dot maps. Sorry! There is another settler due in 4 in Eotin Bay.

The northern barbs are 1 horse on the northernmost mountain, 4 horses & 1 warrior on the next mountain S, and the 1 barb forted outside Mayhem.

Except for the barb boats, there seem to be none on the land bridge. I read somewhere that they can't form where they can be seen, so the archers seem to have kept that area safe for our settler. The 2 archers farther W on the land bridge are to block the AI.

Nothing seems to have changed in the South, but we no longer have our scout down there to see. Babs & Greece are still up Feudalism, and we are still up Mono on Egypt.

Little progress was made on research with the barbs taking our gold.

Several towns are unprotected. Guess I was lucky the barbs stuck to just 2 towns (Mayhem City was well named, I think.) I probably forgot a LOT of things. I tried to just hit the highlights on most worker/unit moves, and some worker jobs may have been less than optimal in trying to keep them safe. There may be too much detail on the sci slider, because it was changed on almost every turn, but reflected the result of barb activities.

Here's the save with pics to follow:

 

[gmaharriet]

The actual Greek trade (Hammi's offer was the same as an earlier pic.)

Barbs at Mayhem 330bc

Pillaging Lib at 330bc

Forbidden Palace notice and barbs at Mayhem 230bc

Napa Valley 230bc

North 150bc

Northeast 150bc

West 150bc

Our Empire 150bc

 

[Bede]

Nicely handled. The science thing was probably a good lesson but losing the barracks at Salamanca was not the worst thing that could happen. The lesson being that sometimes it pays to just shut off research.

I am not a big fan of the 10% research ploy. All or nothing at all is a far better way to go. That is not the case in Civ 1.29 or PTW. But the changes in tech costs in C3C make the 10% run an almost for sure loser. If you need to go that way the single scientist is usually better as the result is the same and keeping the slider at 0 is worth more to the treasury.

Looks like the first territorial war will be with Egypt. That is almost a shame as Cleo is proving to be a lousy scientist.

Some mention has been made of "Bede's Rules". Just to be absolutely clear - there are none. I have my set of crotchets, prejudices and sometmes just plain strongly held, but wrong, notions. So, make your best call, and if I don't like it I'll tell you and try to share some of my reasoning.

 

[gmaharriet]

Some mention has been made of "Bede's Rules".

A bit of an understatement, methinks. Most of the better players I've gotten to know say that they were trained by you and quote you frequently.

This experience with the barbs was great...both terrifying and thrilling and I learned so much from it. The suggestions you made ahead of time were invaluable in keeping me centered and not going into a panic state. It's something I would have avoided FOREVER in my SP games, so now I won't be afraid to attempt it again. Thank you!!!

 

[gmaharriet]

Roster check:

cleverhandle - up
General Mayhem - on deck
eotinb
Bede
gmaharriet - just played

 

[cleverhandle]

Got it. I hope to play tomorrow night.

 

[gmaharriet]

I am not a big fan of the 10% research ploy. All or nothing at all is a far better way to go. That is not the case in Civ 1.29 or PTW. But the changes in tech costs in C3C make the 10% run an almost for sure loser. If you need to go that way the single scientist is usually better as the result is the same and keeping the slider at 0 is worth more to the treasury.

I've been thinking about this all day, and have some observations/questions. Having worked in accounting most of my life, I tend to think about the use of money (gold) a lot.

I know that 10% or single scientist research doesn't accomplish a heck of a lot, but if it shaves off even a single turn from later research, and assuming a player is not averse to the MMing needed, why would it not be worth it? I'm thinking that with the barbs stealing everything in the treasury, it would be preferable to spend the gold on tiny bits of research or even gifting it to the AI for their good will, just as in RL I would prefer to donate money to charity or research, rather than to give it up to a thief. I'm not arguing your point, but thinking out loud here.

I have questions and wouldn't know how to run a test. If the barbs got zero gold from their raids, would there still be 25g in their camps? Does the computer give them their 25g if the raided civs don't? If they only get it from raids, could you reduce the number of barb camps by starving them of gold? I'm thinking the answer is probably no, but just throwing it out here. Another question would be whether or not they do more pillaging when there is no gold to be obtained. Is it sorta like paying protection money to the Mafia? I did notice that they seemed to go for the gold first, or was that just random?

Certainly without barb raids in the picture, being able to save up the gold for useful things makes more sense than 50-turn research.

 

[Bede]

I know that 10% or single scientist research doesn't accomplish a heck of a lot, but if it shaves off even a single turn from later research, and assuming a player is not averse to the MMing needed, why would it not be worth it?

Of course you are correct. There are "special situations" where a single scientist, or a mimimum research budget should be used. One I can think of right off the top of my head is when you start with Alphabet and immediately research Writing and you don't have high commerce fields to work. Writing is so expensive that it is not until you have three or four towns down that you can consider raising the budget to shorten the research time. Also in that instance you can use a single scientist to accomplish the same thing but that is generally not a good idea as it reduces the populatiomn growth curve.

I'm thinking that with the barbs stealing everything in the treasury, it would be preferable to spend the gold on tiny bits of research or even gifting it to the AI for their good will, just as in RL I would prefer to donate money to charity or research, rather than to give it up to a thief. I'm not arguing your point, but thinking out loud here.

As you discovered there is a risk to that approach., But on the other hand it is a risk worth taking.

I have questions and wouldn't know how to run a test. If the barbs got zero gold from their raids, would there still be 25g in their camps? Does the computer give them their 25g if the raided civs don't? If they only get it from raids, could you reduce the number of barb camps by starving them of gold? I'm thinking the answer is probably no, but just throwing it out here. Another question would be whether or not they do more pillaging when there is no gold to be obtained. Is it sorta like paying protection money to the Mafia? I did notice that they seemed to go for the gold first, or was that just random?

It has been my experience that they will go for an undefended town before any thing else. And every camp comes with a stash of 25 gold pieces, regardless of the pillaging that may have occurred.

I am currently playing a SP Space Race and drew a map wiht no barbs. It certainly makes thing easier on the human, as it is now 10AD and my nation of France has all the gold in the world and a command of the tech race in the mid MA, despite an early sneak attack war with the Persians. Nonetheless I miss the little buggers as having the yokels out there makes for a frothier AA tech pace and adds a little spice to the early stages. It would also have given the little green men from the Middle East something to do other than attack my litttle corner of the world which was as far from Persia as it could get.

 

[cleverhandle]

Sorry, I couldn't get the turns in tonight. I'll play tomorrow morning, though I may be a little time-limited (1 PM wedding to attend) and have to end a little early. Some questions if anybody's listening between now and then...

1) I don't understand the Catapult in Salamanca. At this point, we only have two barracks and we're rather short on garrisons. I would use those shields to get our barracks back.

2) What's the plan for the upcoming settler in Eotin Bay? I assume we're filling in the gap between EB and El-Amarna.

3) Should I be moving a spare unit from Bedeville over to Mayhem? It looks like the worst of the barb threat there has past, but I'm not sure what's lurking in the fog.

4) Where is the settler SE of Mayhem headed to? He's in awfully dry country at the moment. I would have settled in the crook of the river NW of the iron (claiming the iron and a river spot), but moving SW to the hills makes some sense too.

5) Would it be reasonable to build a few spears at this point to garrison the southern cities? We're probably looking at a war with Egypt in the near-ish future and may want some bonafide defenders there.

 

[cleverhandle]

Executive Summary: Killed lots of barbs with minor losses, founded some cities, hooked the wine, still behind in tech, revolution and war approaching.

Pre-Turn: Change Salamanca to Barracks

121 (130 BC): Sticks Worker->Catapult. MW's take out two more horsebarbs in the north. Move archer from Bedeville to Mayhem to hold off single horsebarb making his way there. Cronetown founded, starts worker:

IT: MW in the north holds off one barb and promotes, but is killed by the next. Harriet Bay MW->Spearman. Zulus finish the Great Library. Babs learn Engineering.

122: Cleo learns Feudalism and still lacks Mono, but won't trade. New MW moves to archer's mountain position near Eotin Bay and the archer moves back to garrison. Northern MW smacks another horsebarb. Found Tyendenaga, starts worker:

IT: A Greek settler pair appears near Tyendenaga, heading towards the Eastlands.

123: VValley Library->Worker. Egypt finishes the Great Lighthouse. While playing with the sliders checking trades, I realize we had a scientist hired in Scoutsville. So setting our science to 10% instead of 0% was wasting money, since we were at min research anyway. Set science to 0% and we're now at 27g + 12gpt.

IT: Our MW on a mountain is redlined by a barb warrior, but holds out. Still more horsebarbs appear in the north and around Mayhem. Bab settler pair appears near Clever Springs heading north.

124: Bedeville Market->MW. Eotin Bay Settler->Cat. Found Panama City, start worker:

Move our blockading archers down towards the next chokepoint south.

IT: Horsebarbs turn back from Mayhem - there are at least 4 still roaming around in the NE.

125: Salamanca Barracks->MW. Harriet Bay Spearman->Spearman. VValley Worker->Settler. Spearman deploys to Mayhem City area. Caughnawaga founded, starts worker:

We are now tied with Babylon in number of cities. Wake the galleys and send them through the canal (should have done this last turn) - there are several barb boats just waiting to cause them trouble though. Still no trade deals.

IT: Our first galley beats back three barb boats and double promotes!

126: Napa Valley Worker->Worker. Harriet Bay is about to riot - hire a taxman and switch
spear to archer for an MP. Galley returns to Panama City to heal up.

127: Bedeville MW->MW. Play some more whack-a-barb. Archers reach new choke position.

IT: An Egyptian settler pair appears in the south. Our second galley holds off one barb boat, but is sunk by the second.

128: Harriet Bay Archer->Spearman, taxman goes back to work. Clever Springs Catapult->Settler. Sticks Catapult->Temple (looking to expand and grab the BG and gold), workers support with a chop.

IT: MW defends against two barbs and promotes.

129: Salamanca MW->Market. Cronetown Worker->Library (not sure what makes sense here). More whack-a-barb.

130 (50 AD): Bedeville MW->Spearman. Greeks are building Knights Templar, so Chivalry is out there. Wines are hooked, but Salamanca will still be unstable at 0% lux. Hire a taxman in Salamanca, which stops growth but lets us avoid running lux. This is probably debatable, but I think we'll need the lux back in a couple more turns as other cities grow anyway. Our gpt payments to Greece for Mono end.


Thoughts for the future...

Revolution: Now is the time, IMO - our science and tax revenues will be almost exactly equal to current numbers. Also, we probably want to revolt before doing any further trades, so that we're not stuck with a big deficit during anarchy.

Trades: Unfortunately, Cleo just got Mono on the last turn so using that to sweeten a trade for Feudalism is impossible. We can trade for Engineering from either Babylon or Greece, but that will create a hefty deficit if we revolt.

Military: Yes, I built a spear and have two more in the pipes - flame away. I feel we need defenders in the south to garrison the cities on the Egyptian border - it's only a matter of time before a war starts there, and I wouldn't put a sneak attack past Cleo. Caughnawaga, in particular, is going to be a mild flip risk without a larger garrison. We also need to get settlers out to the NE territory and will want some decent defenders for cover.

Settlement: Our next city should put us in the lead for # of cities. We have two settlers in the pipes - one at VValley in 2 and the other at Clever Springs in 8. Pulling another out of Bedeville would also be reasonable. I would settle the patch of forest NE of Mayhem and the river spot 2SE, 1E of Mayhem. The NE spot is nicer land, but the SE spot would steal the position from the various AI settler pairs that have appeared.


The save is here. Full-size screenies follow.