TGOM 02 - The Grumpy Old Monk and the Ancient Crone go to Alpha Centauri

Thanks. I understand what you're saying about timing the settler to growth at 7.

I see now what you did with the big picture. Can I play my set over again now? :lol: J/K!!!

The "trick" I'd been thinking of is Dave McW's Scientific Tech trick at the change of age in The War Academy, and while it has some similarities to what you did, his only applies to SCI civs.
 
Got it. But I'm going to have to wait until tomorrow afternoon to play. If I'm lucky, I'll squeeze out a few turns tonight and report back on anything interesting.

I still don't understand why we're not trading up at least CoL, if not Philo. I know there's not a lot of gold in the world economy at the moment, but we know that CoL is already out there and Philo probably isn't far behind. I'll try to check out the trade possibilities tonight at least and post my theories here before committing to anything.
 
OK, I've played around with trade values in the diplo window a bit and come up with the following approximate current values.

MM=361
HBR=367
Math=559
CB=85
Philo=399
CoL=240

Extrapolating by beaker cost, Myst is probably worth about 200 and Poly about 600.

Of those techs (besides Myst since we can't see it), here are what the AI's *need*

Greece - MM, HB, Philo, CoL
Egypt - HBR, Philo, Math (they got CoL in the last two turns!)
Babs - Math, Philo

My philosophy on AA techs in Emperor is that tech parity is a good thing. I don't see any sense in hanging on to techs apart from Republic if we can gain something else by them. So I would do something like the following:

Buy CB from Egypt for 85.
Trade Philo to Babs for HBR.
Trade Philo and HBR to Greece for Maths + 25g
Trade Maths to Egypt for MM + 110g (our 85 plus the 25 she's got)

That would net us all 4 visible techs and current world cash, leave Greece still without CoL and MM, Egypt without HBR and Philo, and Babs without Maths. That would allow us to probably pick up Mysticism (though probably not Poly) or at least keep cheap techs around so that an AI would threaten for them rather than Republic.
 
Sounds reasonable to me. I agree that hoarding is not a good thing, once you 've gotten past the Philo->Rep gambit, as long as there is some recompense. The time will come soon enough when we will be giving stuff away just to keep the pace frothy.
 
gmaharriet said:
The "trick" I'd been thinking of is Dave McW's Scientific Tech trick at the change of age in The War Academy, and while it has some similarities to what you did, his only applies to SCI civs.
lurker's comment: Harriet - you need to be a rocket scientist like Dave to get that to work. Plus it involves some tactics that are considered an exploit in some circles... LK, RBCiv.
 
Sir Bugsy said:
lurker's comment: Harriet - you need to be a rocket scientist like Dave to get that to work. Plus it involves some tactics that are considered an exploit in some circles... LK, RBCiv.
No worries about me even being ABLE to pull it off, but thanks for the exploit heads up. The only part I sorta remembered was entering diplo through the big pic (though not until Bede mentioned doing it).

Edited much later and thinking out loud: Ya know, one of the biggest things I'm learning here is where my areas of greatest weakness lie. Trading is certainly one of them. Also, I've avoided barbs until now because I don't know how to deal with them, so I'm working on an SP game now with them raging...they are driving me nuts, but I'm learning a bit about how they behave and what to do. I seem to learn best by focusing on just one new thing at a time, so my coming weekend will be devoted to barbs. Though trading is very important too, I think it will take a LOT longer and many more games to master.
 
lurker's comment: You're devoting an entire weekend to smelly guys who weren't smart enough to build their own empire? :joke:

In all seriousness, that is how I fix my problems in Civ III. Not only that, but I am playing a game and making a log, then posting it in "Hints and Tips". I also provide pics, just like a SG would. I recieve hints galore. You could try doing that some time, or maybe look at my thread, and realize that in comparison, you're really good. Only problem is I now tick off my mom when she plays an MP; she has to wait for my Settlers/Workers/Scouts to finish moving. All 30 of 'em. ;)
 
C3CFanatic0014 said:
I am playing a game and making a log, then posting it in "Hints and Tips". I also provide pics, just like a SG would. I recieve hints galore.
I've seen your thread. I've not done one as detailed as yours on the board, but while playing 2 AW games (1 at Warlord & later 1 at Regent), I posted pics and saves about 3 times during each game and got ample help from many people and won both games. They were the only AW's I've ever tried.
 
lurker's comment: @ harriet - bugs is correct, but even idiots like me (or is it I) can manage to sometimes get a tech. I only do it when I've got military advantage and they can't hurt me
 
Need some immediate advice here, people. The turnlog is really pretty uneventful until the end, so I'll keep it informal for the moment.

Did the trade deal as I outlined above, but underestimated how much techs would devalue after trading. Ended up leaving Cleo with 84g, though we still gained HBR, Maths, CB, Myst, and Poly without trading Republic. No MM though. Built some archers, fought some barbs, explored a bit, founded Clever Springs, but nothing to write home about overall.

On the 79-80 IT, Hammi demands the Republic.


I'm of two minds here. We can tell him to stuff it, and he'll probably declare - he has a power and military lead at the moment. But by the time he crosses the continent with anything worth worrying about, we can have some Mounties ready, probably even if we squeeze in a revolt to Republic to avoid a despotic GA (we're not quite ready economically, but it's not bad). If his forces are weak enough, we could even hold back the MW's to keep the GA from triggering for a while.

On the other hand, AI demands are usually not astronomical - I'm guessing that Hammi is already well on the way to Republic and that his valuation of Republic has already gone down. So we may not lose a whole lot by giving it up, particularly since we're only a couple turns from Literature and have a pretty strong economy going at this point.


My instinct is to tell him off. But I certainly want to ask around before I do so.

Since I'm locked in the diplo screen I can't post the exact save or screenies, so I alt-tabbed out and grabbed the most recent auto-save, which you can download here.
 
Own said:
You can resave them and then post that.
Except that I can't, because I can't exit the diplo screen without making a choice.

It's only a 1.6 MB file anyway - my server can handle that. Sorry for the inconvenience to those on a slow line.
 
Bede said:
This early I just don't think that warfare is such a hot idea. It's a distraction, especially when at least two of the neighbors have early AA UU's. I'd rather wait until we can win handily then take it to them.

The neighbors are not close, true. But they are on the same continent.
Well, I'm quoting Bede here. I doubt if we'd want a despotic GA. As you said, we're not really quite ready for a revolt to Republic. If we build Mounted Warriors before revolting, we'd be increasing our unit costs in Republic at a time when we should be developing our economy, and we'd be fighting the Bab's bowmen UU. At the same time, I really hate to give up Republic to Hammi on the IT when he can turn around and trade it to the others for the techs you said he was missing in your earlier post and maybe make it into the MA.

I'm not expert enough to give a recommendation...just throwing out my thoughts on the dilemna as I see it. I'd really like to have Bede's thoughts first, but that surely leaves you hanging. I'm not sure about the ethics of exiting the game and replaying the turn later when you have access to better advice (if you can remember the exact sequence of moves thus far so as not to change what happens). I'd hate to be in your spot right now, so would certainly support whatever you decide if you don't want to wait. :)
 
I doubt if we'd want a despotic GA. As you said, we're not really quite ready for a revolt to Republic. If we build Mounted Warriors before revolting, we'd be increasing our unit costs in Republic at a time when we should be developing our economy, and we'd be fighting the Bab's bowmen UU. At the same time, I really hate to give up Republic to Hammi on the IT when he can turn around and trade it to the others for the techs you said he was missing in your earlier post and maybe make it into the MA.

will you marry me? if this is offensive, please advise and i'll delete
 
gmaharriet said:
At the same time, I really hate to give up Republic to Hammi on the IT when he can turn around and trade it to the others for the techs you said he was missing in your earlier post and maybe make it into the MA.
The AI's traded amongst themselves earlier in my turnset and equalized. We have Republic on all of them, and all of them have MM on us. Nobody has (or had, as of the last turn) Currency, Construction, Literature, or Monarchy.
I'm not sure about the ethics of exiting the game and replaying the turn later when you have access to better advice (if you can remember the exact sequence of moves thus far so as not to change what happens).
Seems a tad skeezy, but there really weren't many moves to make on turn 79 - I'm fairly sure that the demand will occur regardless. I'd at least like to hear from Bede or both Brad and Mayhem. If I don't get anything in a bit, I may exit (if only to play a different game for a while :) ). I'm going to go watch Numb3rs now anyway.

I am curious about whether establishing an embassy would have changed this - I notice we don't have any yet.
 
Admiral Kutzov said:
will you marry me? if this is offensive, please advise and i'll delete
I would, but I think we've both already been taken. Thank you from someone who really appreciates your advice. :love:
 
Since you are waiting for me (with bated breath, I know, I know) I'll jump in now. I was waiting to have a peek at the autosave. If that changes my opinion, I'll come back and update.

Your analysis is solid, as is Harriet's evaluation. It's still a tough call. But for me the kicker is that you suspect Hami is well on his way to having Republic on his own. Obviously you can't know for sure, but it seems likely, and if it's true, the cost of giving it up is not that great. And since you already drained most of the gold out of the continental economy and the AIs are level, I don't see Hami doing that well trading it around -- no one has anything to trade back save Egypt's $84. Go ahead and cave. But I'm showing Hami the yellow card and writing his name down in my little notebook. He would _really_ rather not be in there. :hammer:
 
gmaharriet said:
I doubt if we'd want a despotic GA. As you said, we're not really quite ready for a revolt to Republic. If we build Mounted Warriors before revolting, we'd be increasing our unit costs in Republic at a time when we should be developing our economy, and we'd be fighting the Bab's bowmen UU. At the same time, I really hate to give up Republic to Hammi on the IT when he can turn around and trade it to the others for the techs you said he was missing in your earlier post and maybe make it into the MA.

And I'll just quote the Harrier quoting me.

If the economic and technoligy postion is level, and having Republic will only net Hammi Cleo's 84g, let him have it. Even with the AI-AI trade rate premium I'm not all that sure he'd only take the 140+g equivalent anyway without a tech or resource sweetener.

I suppose we could trap Hammi into a despotic Golden Age with only eight or so cities by sacrificing a warrior to his bowmen, but I don't think we are ready for the onslaught of bowmen to follow and I would rather not waste those fifteen turns or so getting ready for them when we could be doing settlers.

My advice stands as given above - pay him off and write him down.
 
OK, I caved. I suppose we can put Hammi on a hit list, but he's a long ways off and I doubt it will be necessary to take his core land if we're looking for a space win. Anyway, I played only 9 turns to get us back on multiples of 10. Also, a newly built settler is waiting to move - we should figure out where he's going. Here's the blow-by-blow:

Pre-Turn - Did the trade deals but underestimated dropoff in value after trading. We're still missing MM and Cleo ended up keeping 84 gold. We did get both Myst and Poly though, and still kept Republic of course. Could be better probably, but we ended up effectively getting CB, Myst, Poly, HBR, and Math for Philo+60g.

72 - Bedeville Archer->Archer. Archer sent down toward hills SE of Salamanca as vanguard for settler. Changed Mayhem City to Warrior per Bede's suggestion.

73 - Salamanca Settler->Archer. Settler follows vanguard.

74 - Turned off lux (should have done this last turn, sorry) and moved one MP from Salamanca to Bedeville to compensate. Mayhem City Warrior->Worker. Sent Archer down towards barb camp in SE.

75- Salamanca grows, bumped lux back to 10%. Archer from Mayhem reveals a barb horsie in striking range. Curragh reveals a cow near the incense south of the sea - we'll want to get over here.

76 - Horsebarb retreats to camp. Bedeville Archer->Archer. Salamanca Archer->Settler. We have several archers in the Salamanca/Bedeville area, so I figure now is as good a time as any to pop the GH lurking outside Salamanca. Bedeville archer crosses river to be ready for response. Salamanca archer heads toward GH. AI's did some tech trading - they are now all even and have MM (we don't) but not Republic.

77 - Harriet Bay Barracks->Archer. One barb horse shows up N of Mayhem City and another comes out of the camp in the SE and heads toward Mayhem. Switch from worker to warrior there since we can complete it before an attack. Archer hits GH and pops a few barb warriors. Settler founds Clever Springs on the hills near the desert oases. Would be nice to start a worker, but there's not enough food, so it goes for an Archer instead.

78 - Mayhem City Warrior->Worker. Archer destroys barb camp for 25g. Archers start to clear out hutbarbs without incident.

79 - More barb clearing. Worker begins road toward Clever Springs.

IT - Babylon demands Republic and I cave.

80 - Salamanca Settler->MW. Bedeville Archer->MW. Lux back to 0%. Literature comes in next turn, but there's no wiggle room on the slider. One of the barb-fighting archers goes back to Bedeville to heal up and then continue north. The other follows the last barb SW. The new archer from Bedeville heads E to Mayhem City. Blue Feather steps next to Heliopolis by mistake - apologize to Cleo for me next turn. Switched Clever Springs from Archer to Warrior - we have plenty of vet archers roaming around at this point, and just building the warrior will get our worker done sooner. The new settler is still to move.


Apart from Hammi's demand at the end, everything was pretty routine. There has been no new development in the world economy since the trade deal and no real excitment in terms of exploration apart from the cow near the incense. Orders of business for the future:

1) Embassies: Establishing these might help keep aggression down until we're ready to notch it up. Greece is starting to get close to us and an embassy there would only cost 44g. I would probably do that one at least. Egypt is 55g and Babylon is 64g.

2) Settlement: I think the priority should be working around the lake toward the incense - Greece is getting close and is out of space in the far south near Egypt and Babylon. We have one settler ready to go and could soon get another out of Bedeville if we want to. We could settle S of the sugar and NE of the cow and have a reasonably solid extension of the core. Then work NW toward the wine afterwards.

3) Workers: We need `em. Having to switch Mayhem to a second warrior to protect against barbs was irritating. And if we're going to work toward the incense and the wines we're going to have lots of roads to build.

4) Military: Up to this point, I stuck with Archers because the barbs were plentiful enough that I was feeling time pressure. At this point, we seem to have slightly better control so MW's might not be a bad idea. I set both Salamanca and Bedeville to MW's, but Salamanca may want to switch back to an archer since it keeps the settler production occuring right at the 5-to-6 growth point. All of the current unit builds apart from the workers are pretty switchable.

5) Trade: Hammi kept Republic to himself, so we could trade it to Egypt to get MM and her cash. Seems like a bit of a waste but it's already out there now and we have Literature coming in next turn anyway. I doubt that both Egypt and Greece would trade for Republic on the same turn and both have MM, so I'd probably wait a little while at least.


The save is here. Screenies follow.
 
The west and southwest:

T80-1.jpg




The east (the archer in Clever Springs was changed to warrior after this shot):

T80-2.jpg
 
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