TGOM 02 - The Grumpy Old Monk and the Ancient Crone go to Alpha Centauri

[General Mayhem]

CoL (240) for Maths (222) from Greece (has 25 gold).
Col (240) and Maths (222) for Map Making (312) from Egypt (has 25 gold).
CoL (240) for HBR (138) and CB (48) from Bab (has no gold).

The problem with this is that as you trade COL to more people its value goes down. Same goes for any other tech. I would go for Lit instead of currency, even if we don't go for TGL the libraries will be a neccesity because we want to keep the tech pace moving, and markets really don't pay off in small towns other than the capital/1st ring cities unless there are enough luxes avaliable for them to have an effect. (at least, that's been my experience with them)

As far as barb suppression goes, Mounties work great
I would get spears in our cities instead of warrior's once we get the chance, better defense makes a good barb deterent.

 

[cleverhandle]

But my general plan (with +/- some gold thrown in on either side is to try this:
CoL (240) for Maths (222) from Greece (has 25 gold).
Col (240) and Maths (222) for Map Making (312) from Egypt (has 25 gold).
CoL (240) for HBR (138) and CB (48) from Bab (has no gold).

Babs already have CoL, so that one's out. And because the Babs have it, Greece won't be trading Maths for it straight up.

We would still have monopolies on both Philo and Republic.

Others may disagree with me, but I see no reason to keep a monopoly on Philo at this time unless you can somehow manage to snaggle all the remaining techs only with CoL. But I don't think that's going to happen. Don't get hung up on keeping tech monopolies.

What I don't get is how we're so far behind in number of cities as an agri nation - Babs have 8 to our 4! I know the early granary contributes to the problem, but it still seems very ugly.

 

[gmaharriet]

Babs already have CoL, so that one's out. And because the Babs have it, Greece won't be trading Maths for it straight up.

Oops! You're right about the Babs and CoL. Thanks for catching that. OK, CoL and Philo for Maths, Philo and Maths for Map Making, and some combo of those to the Babs for HBR and CB. I wasn't set on keeping Philo as a monopoly, but given my initial mistake about who had CoL, it just seemed to turn out that way. Straight up was never really the plan anyway... +/- gold was a definite consideration, but no idea how much until I try it. Sometimes the AI surprises me and gives way more techs and/or gold than I expect, but I never count on it.

What I don't get is how we're so far behind in number of cities as an agri nation - Babs have 8 to our 4! I know the early granary contributes to the problem, but it still seems very ugly.

Yes, they're all ahead of us and I have no idea why. In my private games I use Moonsinger's Map Finder to get some great maps, though I've stopped trying for the 25-cow starts and look for a river plus either a cow OR 3 BG's, rather than both. It might be interesting to get embassies to see just what the other civs have. OTOH, with almost no experience on Emperor, I don't know if this is typical. Certainly, losing one worker has hurt our economy, but I don't know by how much since it wasn't that many turns ago. Maybe the Babs settled next to a goody hut and popped a settler.

 

[Bede]

The number of cities issue has several components: 1) the other guys may have gotten settlers or even villages from huts; 2) at Emperor the AI gets a pretty nice production discount, it is 1/3 IIRC, so a settler only costs 20 shields instead of 30; 3) our start position was not a food bonanza; 4) we put at least 80 shields into explorers and a granary. That is four AI settlers right there.

I'm not too concerned about the comparative city count; the fact that we nailed the Republic gambit means that our economy is in far better shape than the other nations. As my old man used to tell me "it ain't the size of the dog in the fight it's the size of the fight in the dog that matters".


Trading sequence should focus on acquiring gold first and then technology. I haven't looked at the save in detail but I would start with the wealthiest nation and work down from there. Looking at the CAII numbers I'm not even sure that a trading round is even in order right now. We can acquire Map Making pretty cheaply I think as it is known to two, Mathematics is going to be a problem as right now it is only known to Greece.

If there were more gold in the world economy I might mortgage the farm to buy maths and use that as our trade bait. Is it possible to peddle Philosophy to Greece for Maths?

So look to the Three Tenets of Trading and pick your course from there.

Our next research project should be literature. Getting libraries early in our core towns will be more important to us than markets and even more important than Horseback Riding.

We will need to control, or be able to acquire, at least three luxes for markets to have much of an impact. They do contribute to cash flow but only to the extent that the budget is oriented towards tax revenue rather than science. If this were a no research game I would build them for the commercial benefit. Since we will probably keep the science slider north of 70% they will only start to pay off commercially when the uncorrupted gold in a town goes above 10. We need Currency for the era advance but we don't need to hustle real hard to get it.

Since we have iron handy we will be better off delaying the training of Mounties until we are comfortably out of Despotism and need the boost provided by a Golden Age sometime in the Middle Ages.

The revolution can wait until we get the core developed.

That huge Inland Sea is certainly an interesting development. It makes the neck of land to the north even more important as that will be our naval access to the wider world.

No spears! Don't need 'em, don't want 'em. In an Always War game they are useful. For our purposes archers and swords and mounties and cats are far better. I would spend the twenty shields on two vet warriors rather than a single spear as two warriors upgrade to 6 attack and 4 defense.

 

[gmaharriet]

That huge Inland Sea is certainly an interesting development. It makes the neck of land to the north even more important as that will be our naval access to the wider world.

"Insteresting" is an understatement, I think. Does that then change your plan to settle east and south first, heading instead to north, the wines and the coast? It won't happen on my last 2 turns yet to be played, but for the next player it will make a difference.

 

[gmaharriet]

Turnlog continued:

Per Bede's suggestion check on trading Philo for Maths, but they want both CoL and Philo, or Philo plus 160g. Decide to wait. Change research to Lit in 14. Hit enter.

9. 1250 - Barb from southern hut attacks Red Feather who wins and promotes to vet, but barb horse emerges to slay our brave warrior. RIP Our elite archer kills the last barb in the northern hut and we are 25g richer. Curragh and Blue Feather explore.

IT Salamanca grows, raise lux to 20%.

10. 1225 - Move northern archer S to begin exploration to west of our inland sea. Curragh begins to move home as there is nothing more to be seen, and Blue feather explores.

Thoughts: We have another archer due in 1 and settler due in 2. We badly need more exploration to the mountains northeast and the northwestern coast, but the next archer probably needs to protect the next settler. We need more food in Salamanca. Should curragh be disbanded or kept for an upgrade to galley later and perhaps transport setter(s) across the inland sea and to incense? Actually, it seems we need more of everything right now, and losing our scout to the barb didn't help. A general discussion of barb suppression would be very helpful to me about now.

I have the feeling my turn log count is off somehow, but I'm not certain.

I only made pics of the north where the barb hut used to be and the small additional area visible in the far south. Our Metro area hasn't changed since the last pic posted.

And the save:

 

[Bede]

Roster check (rant later)

cleverhandle - go kill us some bogies
General Mayhem - on deck
eotinb
Bede
gmharriet - got barbed

 

[gmaharriet]

Roster check (rant later)

Uh, oh.

 

[eotinb]

His bark is worse than his bite.

Rant is such a negative turn. I prefer to think of them as "teaching opportunities," and occasionally "name-calling opportunities."

Edit: Taking a guess of my own (see Harriet's below): Placement of Mayhem City

 

[gmaharriet]

His bark is worse than his bite.

Yeah, I know, but like medicine, it's good for you, but you wish you didn't NEED it.

Edit: Can't stand the suspense. Gonna take some guesses on rant topics.

Shoulda moved Red Feather east to the hill to get away from the barbs.
Should not have built barracks in Harriet Bay due to maint cost, but built reg archer instead.
Shoulda moved northern archer east to explore the mountains, rather than west area.
Didn't MM Salamanca properly.
Shoulda taken the trade deal for Maths.
Maybe screwed up the turn log. I sometimes forget what happens on the turn vs the IT and have trouble reconstructing it later.
Probably lots more.

 

[CivFan91]

lurker's comment: Bede, there is no need to criticise gmaharriet... he did that for you.

 

[Bede]

Yeah, I know, but like medicine, it's good for you, but you wish you didn't NEED it.

You guys crack me up.

Edit: Can't stand the suspense. Gonna take some guesses on rant topics.

Shoulda moved Red Feather east to the hill to get away from the barbs.

Nope. That's not it. Unless you saw him first.

Should not have built barracks in Harriet Bay due to maint cost, but built reg archer instead.

Maybe, but the last we thing we need is 20sp regular anythings. And if we need the muscle and if the Bay has at least 4spt and can grow into 6spt then that's even better.

Shoulda moved northern archer east to explore the mountains, rather than west area.

Coin toss. Odds are there are more bogies back there but new map knowledge is always good

Didn't MM Salamanca properly.

Don't think that's it. If you get two settlers in your turn set you're good.

Shoulda taken the trade deal for Maths.

Hard to say without knowing exactly what the gold situation was. If there wasn't enough in the world to get it back, or at least enough to finance the burn rate, then no harm in waiting.

Maybe screwed up the turn log. I sometimes forget what happens on the turn vs the IT and have trouble reconstructing it later.

Looked good to me. You did take an extra turn I think. Always end on a turn number that is divisble by ten

Probably lots more.

Don't be so hard on yourself. That's my job.

 

[gmaharriet]

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmaharriet
Shoulda moved Red Feather east to the hill to get away from the barbs.

Nope. That's not it. Unless you saw him first.

Saw him, went S on flat grass to avoid him, but could have gone E to hill 1 tile farther away and with more defense. I have just discovered that, unlike regular civs, you can right click on barb camps and it shows how many guys are in there and what type...new info for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmaharriet
Should not have built barracks in Harriet Bay due to maint cost, but built reg archer instead.

Maybe, but the last we thing we need is 20sp regular anythings. And if we need the muscle and if the Bay has at least 4spt and can grow into 6spt then that's even better.

It only has 3spt, but 3 forests of which one is being chopped to help, and 3 grass tiles to be mined at some point...just not yet. I have little experience with barbs and it seems like there are an awful lot of them, so muscle seems important to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmaharriet
Shoulda taken the trade deal for Maths.

Hard to say without knowing exactly what the gold situation was. If there wasn't enough in the world to get it back, or at least enough to finance the burn rate, then no harm in waiting.

Egypt & Greece each had 25g, BAbs 0.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmaharriet
Maybe screwed up the turn log. I sometimes forget what happens on the turn vs the IT and have trouble reconstructing it later.

Looked good to me. You did take an extra turn I think. Always end on a turn number that is divisble by ten

That's what I thought and still don't know how I managed that. I'm sorry. I'll take just 9 next time I'm up if that will help.

You can rant at me all you like. I question almost every move I make and never feel sure it's the correct choice. I'm here to have fun, but I want VERY much to learn.

 

[eotinb]

Question: What will we do if someone comes a-callin' demanding a tech?

 

[Bede]

Just to satisfy my curiousity I ran a shadow of your turns.

When Philosphy was learned did you use the "big picture" button when the Science Advisor appeared? I don't think so, because when I did the I was able to get Maths and Alex's 75g, in a deal before picking Republic in the Science window.

That was the only major difference in our outcomes.

The other thing I did was send the archer at HB out to scout and killed a barb before he got into our territory.

I was wrong about the settler/archer cycle. We will need to be at at pop5-7 to make it work. I don't use spreadsheets like TR so sometimes my horseback estimates are off and in tbis case they really were and even my new one maybe.

Notes to the next player:
Mayhem will have enough shields for a worker before it grows so change to a warrior or something. Then send the archer out on a barb hunt.

Bedeville is shield long right now. You could give the silks forest to Salamanca which will let you turn up the science expenditure. It is better to give that field to the capitol anyway since none is lost to corruption and we get a better happiness and science situation

 

[Bede]

Question: What will we do if someone comes a-callin' demanding a tech?

Give it up with a smile and put their namemon a list.

 

[General Mayhem]

ok, its your game. I usually defy for tech's, but cave for gold. I guess this isn't the correct way to do it?

 

[Bede]

This early I just don't think that warfare is such a hot idea. It's a distraction, especially when at least two of the neighbors have early AA UU's. I'd rather wait until we can win handily then take it to them.

The neighbors are not close, true. But they are on the same continent.

 

[gmaharriet]

Just to satisfy my curiousity I ran a shadow of your turns.

I am delighted that you're willing to do that. I know how time-consuming it can be.

When Philosphy was learned did you use the "big picture" button when the Science Advisor appeared? I don't think so, because when I did the I was able to get Maths and Alex's 75g, in a deal before picking Republic in the Science window.

No, I didn't. I rely on either Mapstat (this time) or CAII to tell me what's available. How would big pic button show what Alex has? Do you only use that when you get a free tech, or are there other similar situations? Do you check with each leader at that time to see what they have? Seems like I read something about a "trick" like this when I first found this board and was still playing on Chieftain, and I didn't understand it at the time. Can't recall if it was in The War Academy or just a discussion thread. BTW, what did Alex want in return?

The other thing I did was send the archer at HB out to scout and killed a barb before he got into our territory.

The one who killed our warrior and worker? I hadn't wanted to leave HB unguarded, so the archer was too far away to defend. I guess it would be better to have an empty town pillaged than to lose the 2 units like I did. I shall add the idea to my toolbox.

I was wrong about the settler/archer cycle. We will need to be at at pop5-7 to make it work.

Doesn't 7 empty the granary and take longer to refill in the long run? I'm not clear on this.

 

[Bede]

When you learn a tech you hit the "Big Picture" button when the Science Advisor pops up to tell you about it. From the Science Screen you can go to the Diplomatic Screen and make a deal if one is out there. In this case Alex would trade Maths and 75g for Philosophy. Since this happens before the Autosave neither MapStat or CAII are aware of it.

The pop5-7 thing can be a little tricky, but basically whay happens is that you need to time it so growth to seven and the settler happen at the same time. You get the extra shields from the new citizen, produce the settler and drop back to five before the game calculates the food requirement for a pop7 town so the food store does not empty.