TGOM 02 - The Grumpy Old Monk and the Ancient Crone go to Alpha Centauri

[eotinb]

Thanks for the clarification on "good economy." I've got the save. I will push on to the incense and then towards the wine and isthmus. Couple of questions to which I'd love to see the answers when I awake tomorrow and get to it:

1. Obviously we are going to want libraries, and sooner rather than later. How much should I prioritize them in our core and are we going to want them in the semi-productive fringe? On the fringe question I am thinking of the recent and near future development (the tastefully named Eotin Bay; incense, wine, and canal cities). I imagine we are going to want them eventually in such towns, so I guess my question really is how to prioritize them there -- does the border expansion element of the libs push them up where they would otherwise be in the queue for fringe cities?

2. When are we going to want to revolt? Since we surely don't want a despotic GA, this leads to the next question...

3. Since we are nearing the end of the AA, how soon in the MA do we want our GA and how should we go about planning for this? Since Bede has stated he only builds IA wonders and we have such a nice late-AA/early-MA UU, it seems almost certain that we will trigger our GA with a Mountie. To quote a rabbit: "I hope you realize this means war." Are we going to start a war just to trigger our GA, or will we wait for an opportune time, or are we going to start a war with multiple objectives (trigger GA and etc)?

4. Since the General has alerted us that there are Egyptian workers for sale, how important is it to buy workers off of our rivals? I realize the benefits of doing so, but is it something we only do if we can afford the asking price or is it important enough to trade Republic or pay a few gpt (in this situation -- but my question is also a general one)?

5. Finally, and this is not relevant to this set of turns but all this talk of wonders has made me wonder , is there ever a reason to build the wonders that double science output in a city (other than say a space OCC)? Would one or more of those be something we might consider if we found ourselves with a SGL at the right time?

I was sure I had more questions than this, but I seem to have run out for now.

 

[Bede]

Iwas all set to post a detailed reply to the above and also some notes on GM set but FireFox locked up and I am too tired to recreate it.

I will try to post some suggestions once the sun comes up, but just let me point out that we are missing out on some really juicy lands to the north and that concentrating on the south into what looks like a lot like South Dakota (dry with a few cows) does not appear to this GOM as the optimal way to go.

The settler from Bedeville could have trekked to the near north riverside (water, commerce and bonus grass galore) a lot sooner than he will get to the smelly sticks on the far side of the lake.

 

[General Mayhem]

I didn't mention this in my turn log, but our warrior that needs to get disbanded in the south saw multiple Egyptian and at least 1 Greek settler pair that seemed to be headed in a general northerly direction, which is why I decided to head the Bedeville settler south, especially since it would still get there before any settler that could be produced elsewhere would make it.

 

[cleverhandle]

Bede - Point taken on the Pyramids.

The settler from Bedeville could have trekked to the near north riverside (water, commerce and bonus grass galore) a lot sooner than he will get to the smelly sticks on the far side of the lake.

The Greeks are not far from that incense right now. I agree that the north is better land, but running an empire on only 2 native luxuries (assuming we get the wine) is not very fun either.

Also, do we really need so many barracks? At some point, all of these cities will be core producers, but I don't see the need for that much military yet. I would rather work on libraries in at least one of those locations. I guess I'm unclear on what our military plans are. MW's are awesome and I certainly want to use them, but at this point there's so much unclaimed land out there that I'd hate to waste resources fighting. We can pick up a majority portion of our continental land area just by virtue of our starting location.

 

[Bede]

1. Obviously we are going to want libraries, and sooner rather than later. How much should I prioritize them in our core and are we going to want them in the semi-productive fringe? On the fringe question I am thinking of the recent and near future development (the tastefully named Eotin Bay; incense, wine, and canal cities). I imagine we are going to want them eventually in such towns, so I guess my question really is how to prioritize them there -- does the border expansion element of the libs push them up where they would otherwise be in the queue for fringe cities?

Libraries are not cheap culture for the Iro so using them for border expansion is not a priority.

Getting them into the core is more important If you think we have enough military than a library in Bedeville, Harriet Bay and maybe Mayhem would do us some good.

As for where and when to build them I always think in terms of 10 net gold per turn. If a town does that amount than a library will generate enough extra beakers to provide a benefit. Less than that it becomes a judgement call as to whether or not making a citizn a scientist is going to hamper the town's economy in other ways (growth or shields), or how long it is going to take to get to the 10 uncorrupted gold through growth and whether that is the best thing for that town to be building now.


2. When are we going to want to revolt? Since we surely don't want a despotic GA, this leads to the next question...

A revolution is going to hamper our expansion and our research. I would stay in Despotism until our towns on the rivers are at size 7 or better and we control enough luxuries (3-4) or have enough food stored to prevent starvation during the seven turns of anarchy. If we have only 3 luxuries than we want to have markets in the biggest towns.

3. Since we are nearing the end of the AA, how soon in the MA do we want our GA and how should we go about planning for this? Since Bede has stated he only builds IA wonders and we have such a nice late-AA/early-MA UU, it seems almost certain that we will trigger our GA with a Mountie. To quote a rabbit: "I hope you realize this means war." Are we going to start a war just to trigger our GA, or will we wait for an opportune time, or are we going to start a war with multiple objectives (trigger GA and etc)?

I'm thinking it might be fun to plan on a GA in the Modern Era with the Internet. It will really depend on whether or not we are developed to the point where we afford the Middle Ages technologies.

Last space game I played as the Mongols and planned the Keshik appearance to coincide with having almost reached the end of the bottom of the MA tech tree. I captured the town with the Great Library when Chivalry was known across the world, got most of the top of the tree from the GL, all the way to Astronomy I think, upgraded a couple of horsemen to Keshiks, then triggered the GA by wiping out the opponent who had owned the Library. The Golden Age fueled my research all the way into the middle of the Industrial Age very nicely. And I was able to get a good start on factories in the core before it ended.

A lot will depend on our economy in the mid Middle Ages. And a lot of that is going to depend on whether or not we get to the other continent before they get to us.

Remember it only takes one victory to trigger the GA and with artillery support an MW is good against anything up to Mech Infantry.

4. Since the General has alerted us that there are Egyptian workers for sale, how important is it to buy workers off of our rivals? I realize the benefits of doing so, but is it something we only do if we can afford the asking price or is it important enough to trade Republic or pay a few gpt (in this situation -- but my question is also a general one)?

Slave Workers aren't worth trading Republic. The asking price is usually 130g and you can cash rush a native for 80 from 0 shields. True they don't cost unit support but they only work half as hard. Yes the buy will hamper the opposition but in this game we don't want to do that until the time is right.

5. Finally, and this is not relevant to this set of turns but all this talk of wonders has made me wonder , is there ever a reason to build the wonders that double science output in a city (other than say a space OCC)? Would one or more of those be something we might consider if we found ourselves with a SGL at the right time?

If you have two towns producing twenty shields and can tie them up for 30 turns (prebuild+finish), by all means build them. Otherwise, using an SGL is good. The only science wonder I care about is The Internet. Free Research Labs everywhere is great for both culture and science.

I was sure I had more questions than this, but I seem to have run out for now.

Keep 'em coming. Gives me something to think about at work.

 

[Bede]

Also, do we really need so many barracks? At some point, all of these cities will be core producers, but I don't see the need for that much military yet. I would rather work on libraries in at least one of those locations.

So would I. Maybe set Mayhem to a library while Bedeville and Salamanca do settlers and troops and Harriet builds some boats so we can bust out of the Inland Sea when we get a canal up there. Then set Bedeville to a library while Mayhem and Sallie do settlers and troops. Anyway you get the drift here.


I guess I'm unclear on what our military plans are. MW's are awesome and I certainly want to use them, but at this point there's so much unclaimed land out there that I'd hate to waste resources fighting. We can pick up a majority portion of our continental land area just by virtue of our starting location.

Concur with that. We could use a Mountie or two right now to control the eastlands. Other than that we may be done with the military training for w while.

Keep on thinking, then I don't have to do any.

 

[cleverhandle]

OK, here's a question I feel like I should know already - will an MW win against barbs trigger a GA, or do only wins against other civs count?

 

[cleverhandle]

5. Finally, and this is not relevant to this set of turns but all this talk of wonders has made me wonder , is there ever a reason to build the wonders that double science output in a city (other than say a space OCC)? Would one or more of those be something we might consider if we found ourselves with a SGL at the right time?

In typical games, I would consider the science wonders low priority - just consolation prizes or little bonuses in case I have a spare SGL. But I can think of at least two places they are important. First, in a 20k cultural games those are key wonders in terms of culture per turn (Newton's especially). Second, in a 5CC or other game where you have fewer but larger cities they have a relatively greater impact, especially since the "free structure" wonders have a smaller impact when you don't have many cities.

 

[General Mayhem]

cleverhandle, its not possible to generate a leader or trigger a GA against barbs.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

Keep on thinking, then I don't have to do any.

no make him think please how's the eastern farm working?

 

[gmaharriet]

Summarizing what I've been reading in the last few posts, we want to concentrate on expansion south and north to escape our lake, build libs in our core in cities generating ~10spt, develop our economy before revolting to Republic, have only a couple of MW's for barb suppression, and plan a rather late GA.

Since the AI is more likely to attack if our military is weak, how much military should we have and what units if not MW's? (I believe MW's will continue to be available until we've had a GA.) Do we stick with archers, swords and (when available) MDI's, longbows and knights for an offensive defense? How many are sufficient to discourage the AI's without costing us excessive maintenance?

 

[General Mayhem]

From what I've experienced strength of units also affects the AI's perception of how strong we are. In other words, lots of warriors makes us look weaker, while if the warriors become swords we suddenly appear a lot stronger (which makes sense) As far as number of units go, if we have ~ the same number of cities the AI has and keep our unit numbers close the the unit cap we should have plenty, though I would like to see our cities defended by something better than warriors, but there's no rush on this since we didn't draw particularly aggressive opponents.

 

[eotinb]

Allright! I think I have absorbed all of this information, so I will get on with my turns. One clarification: Since we don't yet have MM, should our boatload of boats in anticipation of our canal town include curraghs or should we wait until we can build galleys?

This summary is wonderfully helpful, Harriet:

Summarizing what I've been reading in the last few posts, we want to concentrate on expansion south and north to escape our lake, build libs in our core in cities generating ~10spt, develop our economy before revolting to Republic, have only a couple of MW's for barb suppression, and plan a rather late GA.

I want to clarify that we are only trying to escape the lake with our navy. I don't think we should build farther west and south until we have filled up our side of Loch Ness including the Dakotas. And the threshhold for libraries was >10 net gold per turn, correct, not shields per turn?

 

[General Mayhem]

Its up to Bede on the boats, but I'd wait until we have MM, shields we can generate relatively quickly, but we'd have to build a harbor, and we tend to not have a superabundance of gold for upgrading curragh's, which is why I disbanded the one we had previously to help speed up an archer. And yes, the threshold was 10 gold per turn.

 

[gmaharriet]

And the threshhold for libraries was >10 net gold per turn, correct, not shields per turn?

Um, yes. Good thing you can translate what I meant better than I can type.

I'd definitely wait for galleys. As the General pointed out, we'd need a harbor, and I think our priority is getting settled north for a canal to escape. My question would be...should we go for a canal city first and then backfill, or just settle in that direction? I'd hate to see the AI get there first, but it would be a very long stretch of roading to go there immediately. How about putting an archer (or 2?) on a 1-tile square at the western end of that land bridge to block it off from the AI?

 

[eotinb]

How about putting an archer (or 2?) on a 1-tile square at the western end of that land bridge to block it off from the AI?

Very good idea. Should have done that long ago. I have an archer headed that way. Fortunately, the AIs all seem to be grouped to our south and don't seem likely to outflank us to the west very soon.

Here's the log...

Pre-turn: Just remembered, with the turn of the age approaching, we will want to eliminate those barb camps and be ready to deal with any we miss. Perhaps a few more MW than we talked about would do the trick. Do a little MM here and there. Switch barracks in Mayhem City to granary because it will need the help growing given its location. As it's only making 3gpt at the moment, too early for a library anyway. Having a bit more trouble deciding what to switch Clever Springs' barracks to. Too far along for a worker (which would be my preference -- I'd really like to pick up the pace of infrastructure building and we only have 4 workers) and with all those floodplains, I don't think a granary should be a priority. Decide on a settler. Once it pops out and shrinks Clever Springs back to 1, I'm thinking about using it as a worker factory for a while. Also switch archer in Bedeville to MW only delaying completion by 1 turn.

IBT: Babylon finsishes Pyramids and starts on Hanging Gardens. People move around.

730 BC: I move some people around.

IBT: Greece kicks us out. A few barbs make futile attacks on our proud soldiers. Salamanca settler>>library (due in 10 after some MM). Bedeville MW>>MW. Egypt starts MoM.

710 BC: Archer clears out an encampment in the frozen north. Send Sallie's new settler to three rivers area. Reduce lux to 0% and push science up to 100%, shaving a turn off of Currency.

690 BC: Pop goody hut in NW and learn MM.

IBT: Clever Springs settler>>worker. Eotin Bay worker>>galley.

670 BC: Dial sience back to 50%. Currency on the way. Greece and Babylon beat us to Currency by 1 turn, and Greece has revolted. Given that CAII shows they have Republic, we can guess how they will emerge from this anarchy. Since Cleo is the only person in our neighborhood without Republic now, and has the most gold (at 91), I sell it to her rather than let one of the other two do that. Feel free to explain how this demonstrates that I have some cleverly-named syndrome or complex .

IBT: Currency comes in, I set our shamans working on Construction at 90% (22 turns at -5gpt). Bede will get to deal with the uprising, which is probably for the best. I think I'll leave the rest of the goody huts to him.

650 BC: Found Venerable Valley at the confluence NW of Bedeville, set it to warrior. Egypt has predictably revolted.

IBT: Lose an archer to a mounted barb.

630 BC: Clear out another camp near the wine. Found Smelly Sticks, set it to worker, as it already had an escort. Our iron is now connected.

IBT: Bedeville MW>>MW. Harriet Bay granary>>galley.

610 BC: Bump lux to 10% to prevent a riot in Salamanca.

IBT: Egypt gets a late start on the Hanging Gardens.

590 BC: Babylon has Construction and a fancy new hat.

IBT: Egypt finsishes MoM. Alex and Hammi cascade to Colossus.

570 BC: Another camp eliminated.

IBT: Mayhem City granary>>worker. A short term hit to size that will pay off in the long run once he gets some of those plains irrigated.

550 BC: Couple of barbs appear SE of Clever Springs. Send an archer from Salamanca to help, but he's still one tile away. Bump lux to 20% to prevent rioting in Salamanca as a result of lost content face from MP.

Summary: Settler NW of Venerable Valley meant to go one more to the NW by the river mouth. Didn't send escort because had two archers in the area as a vanguard. MW and archers should be close enough to pop goody huts as Bede sees fit. Four towns are 1 or 2 turns from finishing their current builds, so its not too late to fix some of what I have broken. Sent some of our troops to see what's W and SW of Loch Ness. Incense should be connected soon. Barbs are mostly under control. Construction in 13, but library in Salamanca due in 2, which will speed that up, and science can be bumped back up once MP is back in Salamanca. I decided to continue towards the incense with the settler Mayhem left me rather than double back. But I've started a push NW, settling in a choice spot along the way. Once Salamanca finishes its library, I was thinking Bedeville could be next. No other city would get any use out of one (according to the >10gpt rule).

Screenies...

Bird's eye view:

Eastern lands:

Wild west:

Intrepid explorers:

Barb busters:

Minimap:

And last but not least, the save

Edit: Looking back over the last few posts, I now realize that Bede never said anything about building a library in Salamanca. I guess I assumed the suggested rotation included Sallie, but now I see that we probably wanted to keep that city on the archer/settler cycle. Consider the settler from Clever Springs a substitution that allowed Sallie to sneak in a library. Or just consider me dense.

 

[Bede]

Got it and will look at it later today, much later.

 

[gmaharriet]

Looks like a great set of turns to me, Brad. You got us some towns, whacked some barbs, pushed back a lot of fog and even got us MM from a hut.

I took a quick look at the save and didn't see anything that needed fixing, cept one...there's only one tile on that land bridge that can be blocked with a single archer...the one just north of the archer. I can't tell if you were heading east or west, so maybe you were going there anyway.

I've never been through a change of age with so many barbs, so another MW looks like a good idea to me. I'd have no idea what to expect. Bede, if it happens on your turns, some detail on how you handle them would be greatly appreciated. If it's not going to happen until my turns, I'll need even more advice.

 

[CivFan91]

lurker's comment: When you expand to the South enough to connect borders, you can trade one of those two Silks I see (if you get behind in techs) and get either techs, a GPT deal, or Strategic resources. My 2 cents worth.

See, Bede? I can change! (He knows what I mean )

 

[Bede]

I've never been through a change of age with so many barbs, If it's not going to happen until my turns, I'll need even more advice.

Well, you got 'em

The galley from Harriet Bay had spotted the camp and I was vectoring in Mounties and the archer to destroy it but missed the age change by one turn. In 390BC there was only one warrior in the camp but on the era change we got that pile of horsemen.

Cleared the east of barbarians and got this

Then completely mismanaged the rest of the hunt and there is another horde in the fog at Mayhem City according to the Miltary Advisor.

Other events of note

Got the libraries built in Bedeville and Salamanca and another galley out of Eotin Bay. And some more workers trained. Settled Scoutsville on the way to the wine. And got two more settlers out but they are headed into the teeth of the barbarian horsemen.

The only advice I can give at the moment is protect the workers, and settlers and troops. See if you can mortgage the economy to buy a Middle Ages tech from either Babylon (Monotheism from Babylon is a ggod choice), or Greece then open embassies to get the cash hoard down (take pictures and post them so we will have some more intel about what is happening elsewhere). Do not try to protect the outlying towns. Let the barbarians have their way with them. It will cost gold and shields and maybe some population. Once they sack a town they are gone, so it is a simple mattter of grin and bear it. There are just too many to try and defend against. If you can draw them away by sacrificing a trooper or two, try it, but they are more than likely to just go for the towns.

As I expected we are just managing to keep up in the technology race. Our biggest problem is that we lack inter-continental contact. So the canal cities are beginning to assume greater importance.

When we can finally claim the wines we can probably afford a revolution. That third luxury will keep our core towns from starving, even without markets.

My biggest concern right now is the East Northeast quadrant. There are probably more camps up there as I left that area once I had whacked the huts and camps early in my turns to get towards the north and west.

The Greeks and the Babylonians both know Monotheism, the Greeks know Feudalism as well. The Egyptians learend Construction the same time we did so everybody is the the Middle Ages. Research is towards Engineering at maximum with enough in the bank to cover it.

I bought an RoP from the Greeks to get our wandering warrior home. It only cost 5g and I figured the intel we would gain would be worth it.

The Egyptians and the Babylonians aare settling up towards our southern buffer. We should do what we can to close off the river banks to the south of Clever Springs to keep them out of the eastlands.

In the next 20 turns we should make the transition to Republic and prepare for the first territorial war.