TGOMTG Conquest Class Challenge (C3C)

eldar said:
lurker's comment:
America. Are Expansionist and Industrious. What do those two things mean?
thought about it long and hard.
then after the rust finally dissolved, looked into the strategy page and found Ision's great article about the yanks, to be found HERE
after reading it, please disregard my remark about begging, borrowing and stealing POT. i guess too much :smoke:ing going around.
but my build order stands as is :D
 
eldar said:
lurker's comment:
America. Are Expansionist and Industrious. What do those two things mean?

Expansionist: Start with a scout and passive minor barbarians are friendlier. Also able to build scouts.

Industrious: Workers work faster and the center square of cities and metros produce extra shields.

Thanks Eldar. I guess it helps if we actually know what our traits provide. :blush:

Then if we are wanting to earn gold we need to get our cities up to size 7 for the extra gold. By building next to the river we will be able to do this before Construction. Since we aren’t researching at all I believe building next to rivers may be our best option for not just our capitol, but as many cities as possible.

Sould_warrior said:
tech? since we are not researching, set it to CB so we dont pop it out of a GH by mistake?

I didn't realize that you couldn't pop a tech that you were researching. Out of curiousity why wouldn't we want to pop CB? My guess is it isn't really worth it this early in the game when we could instead wait until later and trade for it from the AI.

Edit:
Soul_warrior said:
looked into the strategy page and found Ision's great article about the yanks

Thanks, just read the article.
 
Whoot, you guys are great, lots of thought here and my head is whirling like a dervish.

Still digesting but will have more comment soon.
 
Methos said:
Then if we are wanting to earn gold we need to get our cities up to size 7 for the extra gold. By building next to the river we will be able to do this before Construction. Since we aren’t researching at all I believe building next to rivers may be our best option for not just our capitol, but as many cities as possible.
very nice point. i guess it comes naturally to me by now - i try to build ALL my cities on a river tile.
but i dont know if you remember - but EVERY worked river tile gives extra commerce. so cities on rivers, will by thier very nature have atleast 2 more river tiles, maybe upto 8 or so. (happened to me once. had the great golden guy built there. changed the cities name to MIDAS VILLE)

Methos said:
I didn't realize that you couldn't pop a tech that you were researching. Out of curiousity why wouldn't we want to pop CB? My guess is it isn't really worth it this early in the game when we could instead wait until later and trade for it from the AI.
as far as i know (and im no great mathematician [or whichever way you spell it]) Ceremonial Burial is the CHEAPEST TECH so we can buy it anytime for the least amount of gold. we DONT want to waste a perfectly good goodie two shoes barbie sorority party where we can get, say writing or construction (happens, you know). to test my "hunch" just try researching it @ 100% and compare to the other techs.
 
Here's the Bedeian algebra:

Scout to the mountain for the look out potential.

Settle NE looks best to me. We don't start with Alphabet and it is known to only two of our neighbors (who may not be on our continent) so an early dinghy isn't in the cards and a coastal location is not of much use right now. And even were it a lake the 2f2g are the same as roaded riverside grass and you can't mine the water. And at this stage with this nation I would go food, shields, gold as my priorities. Food always come first, and since we are not researching the odd extra gold piece is of less value right now than the extra shield from a mine.

I would build two scouts then a warrior then a worker as the more territory we can cover the better off we will be.

Then the granary after the 2nd worker but only if we have a food bonus visible after the move northeast. If no food bonus I think using the forest chop for our first settler makes better sense.

Making friends is Job 1. The scouts should box the compass using double axis moves, e.g. W then N, or E then S, etc, as that exposes more territory than a diagonal (SE or NW) move. Head to coastlines first then explore along them one tile inland. Visit every barbarian village but avoid the armed camps.

Expansionist nations never get angry yokels from villages.

Always set the tech path to the cheapest available as you are about to pay a call. That way if the village gifts a tech it will be the next most expensive. If you have a settler in production or on the ground you won't get a settler and the last thing we want is a settler halfway across the continent. We stand a good chance of getting Bronze Working from the friendly tribes as it is known to almost all the opponents (tech has to be known by four for the barbarians to know it).

First trading rule: Do not make any trade until we know at least two other neighbors. You will have no opportunity to broker any new knowledge and any shared knowledge will be more expensive until you know the second owner. Our objective here is to buy @third price and sell @first. In other words if two nations know Alphabet but don't know Pottery and don't know each other, then we can buy Alphabet for less and sell Pottery for more.

Second rule: Don't hoard techs if the neighbors have met each other, or are likely to. Because as soon as they meet they will trade.

And here's the list of the opponents and what they know:

Neighbors.jpg


As you consider a deal think about Bede's Three Trading Tenets:

1) Do we need it?
2) Can we afford it?
3) Can we broker it for new knowledge or gold?

If a deal meets only one of the above criteria, pass, unless #1 is survival or victory. If it meets two of the criteria, then review the timing with emphasis on #1 and #2. If it meets all three, do it now.

Smoke will pour from my nose and I will belch flames if anybody buys a monopoly tech and there is no potential for brokering it to another nation and we don't need for survival or victory.

A special request: When a trading opportunity opens, save the game and post the save with your log. Then go ahead and make whatever deal(s) you think appropriate. That will give me the opportunity to do a shadow of the trading round for analysis. I will be reviewing the timing, the partner(s) chosen, the deal(s) and the outcome.

Rota:
namliaM - I know your time is limited during the week so if you can kick it off today that would be great. First player takes a set of twenty turns.
Methos - on deck for ten
soul
S'ven
Bede

24 hours to post a got it, 48 from got it to play and post. Skips are automatic. Requests for extension honored and appreciated.
 
I'd just like to make a point that if we pop a goody hut while a settler is in production, we can't get a settler. Therefore, we must remember to change production for one turn and change it back to get the opportunity to get a settler.

I have no objections to having soul_warrior lead off. Getting Alphabet is high priority through trade, as the Curraghs it provides can get us contacts, it has a high trade value, and it opens up the possibilty of popping Writing out of a hut. As someone else already said, have research set on Ceremonial Burial. This may actually be a case where we want to have a Settler in production, because, IIRC, it will actually increase the chance of getting a tech. Unless the chance of getting a settler is replaced with a chance of the hut being empty, in which case I apologize for wasting sometime in your life reading this.

On the subject of rivers, settling on them is definitely a good thing. You don't have to pay 60 shields, the 1gpt upkeep or get Construction to get to the second city size. The second city size also means another spt for us, which is always a good thing.

My opinion on the build order is basically same as soul_warrior. Except I think we should swap the warrior and scout to go like this:

scout > scout > warrior(mp)>granary>???

The earlier you get contact, even if its by a mere 4-5 turns, could be a trade oppurtunity if we get to a civ early enough. If we can get ourselves next to a commercial and/or seafaring civ, we should definitely pay anything we can to get our hands on the Alphabet, and fairly early curraghs. IMHO, we may even want to swap the warrior thats intended for mp and change it to a scout, and build MP when our population is higher. (5 spt means 2 warriors in four turns.) From what I can tell, there's two things about the higher levels that make them possible: the ability to have contacts yourself, and the ability to deprive others of getting contacts.

Also I'm not too good at calculating stuff to be exactly precise, but what kind of variation of a settler factory would our capitol be? 10 turns, with warriors/scouts in between?

Feel free to point out the many flaws of a regent players thinking. I'm sort of addicted to the luxury tax, so I forget to build military police. From what I can see, gold will be the most important in this game... so mp may actually be better.

Also, when is the point where we will stop trading for techs and start stealing to get techs?
 
S'ven said:
I'm sort of addicted to the luxury tax, so I forget to build military police. From what I can see, gold will be the most important in this game... so mp may actually be better.

Also, when is the point where we will stop trading for techs and start stealing to get techs?

No flaws in your thinking that I see. Early on when populations are small and you only have one or two cities luxury tax is generally a better deal than MP's. MP's become cost effective as the effectiveness of the budget decreases as when a town is corrupt and the 10% increase in spending does not translate into the 1 gold piece necessary to get the happy face.

Tech theft is often best left for the early IA when you have learned Espionage for the veteran spies. It is also very costly relative to the value of the tech until the IA as it is based primarily on distance with some factors for population (There is a really good article on Espionage in the Strategy Articles forum by Oynstein)
 
Methos said:
I didn't realize that you couldn't pop a tech that you were researching. Out of curiousity why wouldn't we want to pop CB? My guess is it isn't really worth it this early in the game when we could instead wait until later and trade for it from the AI.
I thought you could pop one you are researching.... i.e. did not know that either
 
lurker's comment:
S'ven said:
I'd just like to make a point that if we pop a goody hut while a settler is in production, we can't get a settler.

That's not an accurate statement.
You can get a settler from a hut while you are building one. You can't get one if you actually have a settler somewhere.

However, you can pop an advanced tribe (a city) even if you have a settler somewhere. Being expansionist greatly increases the chances of this. The only stipulation to popping a city is that the hut must be on terrian that you could normally build a city on. IOW, if you pop a hut on marsh or mountains, there is no possibility of popping a city. You could however pop a settler, as long as you don't have one sitting somewhere. :)
 
I got it, tomorrow BTW is a national holiday in the NL. So no time troubles as yet.

I gather that the build should be Scout-Scout-Worker-Warrior(MP)
or should we go Sc-Sc-Worker-Granary?
First scout move s-e to mountain

Bede said:
Food always come first, and since we are not researching the odd extra gold piece is of less value right now than the extra shield from a mine.

I tried it, and mine-road will not deliver anything over road-mine. But for road mine giving some extra $.

Bede said:
Then the granary after the 2nd worker but only if we have a food bonus visible after the move northeast. If no food bonus I think using the forest chop for our first settler makes better sense.
Is that true as well if we dont find any food bonus anywhere near? I think the added growth will be nice even if we get the second city a bit later.

Anyway lets get them first 20 out of the way.
 
Matt_G said:
lurker's comment:


That's not an accurate statement.
You can get a settler from a hut while you are building one. You can't get one if you actually have a settler somewhere.

However, you can pop an advanced tribe (a city) even if you have a settler somewhere. Being expansionist greatly increases the chances of this. The only stipulation to popping a city is that the hut must be on terrian that you could normally build a city on. IOW, if you pop a hut on marsh or mountains, there is no possibility of popping a city. You could however pop a settler, as long as you don't have one sitting somewhere. :)

I'm pretty sure I'm right.. *digs up WA article on goody huts*

Oystien(C3C)Goodyhut FAQ said:
Settler:
-- Player must not have a settler (active or in production) or any unit with the Settle AI strategy.
-- Player must have less cities than (TotalCities / NumActivePlayers).

Unless Oystien is wrong, I'm going to stand by the belief I currently have.
 
Handover notes:
W of sc2 (scout 2) on the east coast there is a persian spear. It might be important to see where he goes.
It is likely that Persia an Sumeria will soon meet. Should we trade WC for 10g to Sumeria?
We can trade Masonry+72g for Alpha
OR Masonry+Pottery for Alpha+70g with Greece, Should we?
Alpha is still Monopoly & not very brokerable as there is not much tech and/or gold around except Greece.
Pottery is knows to both Persia and Sumeria! If they meet Greece I dont think Pottery will be worth 142g anymore.

Wa2 is on his way back to Washington for MP.
Lux is not yet at 10% for growth (change that before ending turn!)
Wa1 is being used to explore the jungle.
After ending the Turn the granary will be done in 3 turns, 5+5+4 shields will do which is why I made Wo2 road. You can switch last turn to that tile bringing an extra $.
Then offcourse switch back.
If we can place 2 city's (or so) at the greece choke then we can atleast split the continent in half for a while.

The empire: Why does it not show the image? It is wrapted in the IMG tags!
attachment.php


Editted to add 1,2 and X in the image to point to 3 possible sites for the next city(s). 2 Looks nice with the lux.
 

Attachments

Nice start.

I'm proud of myself, it looks like I got us a start that is going to add to the challenge.

I admire your patience on the trading; it is going to pay off.

I will open the save and do a dot map for expansion discussion.

Rota:

Methos - up
soul
S'ven
Bede
namliaM - paid some courtesy calls
 
Just looking at the save and noticed both workers were working different tiles, wouldn’t it be better to have them both work the same tile? That would be the equivalent of three normal workers.

Also would it be wiser to build our 2nd city near the dyes by Wa2? My reasoning is the dyes are fairly close to Sumeria and there is a better chance of them being taken by Sumeria than the spices being gathered up by Greece? Granted the AI’s have better production and may have it before we even get our first settler out.

I’m not very good at settler factories so I’ll mention this to the rest of you, but how tough would it be to use the wheat to the NE of Washington as a settler factory (next to the river and oasis)?

Wow, there are four luxury resources within view already (not for sure about the bananas on if they are a lux).

Noticed Greece already has wines hooked up.

Great game namliaM! :)
 
It's is always a good practice at this stage to discuss before play, or a least until we are familiar with eah other's styles.

So, on with the discussion.

First the map (CivAssistII is a great tool. :thanx:, ainwood [worship])

Lincoln_of_the_Americans,_3000_BC.jpg


The AGRI Sumerians will be heading south like vermin so I think we settle towards them as the priority. The terrain will not be attractive to the Greeks so that direction is a lower priority, I think. But taking the Spices away from Hoplites won't be easy so that should be our first settlement.

We have a tough neighborhood....Greeks and Persia south, Sumeria to the north. And it looks like Sumeria won the territory lottery: two luxuries. a feedlot and all that juicy grassland. :drool: :evil: :rolleyes:

You have an interesting trading round coming up, Methos, I think.
Greece holds two monopoly techs, we have one. Greece also has lots of coin. The other guys are broke and ignorant, relatively speaking.
 
I see that no one responded to Metho's query about CB and huts. So here's my answer

Ceremonial Burial is the least costly of the first column of techs so getting it from the barbarians is of lower value than another first column, or even second column tech.

On worker actions: stacking them is less efficient at this stage. You get the greatest return for the work invested when the fields are ready as the citizens are born, not before. And Washington is already improved for two and will ready for three and four right on time.
 
Bede, or anyone else... I have some questions:
1) How did you get that pic like that? I did IMG tags but no picture :(
2) Why City1 below the river and not just over, this would bring 3th BG?
3) I dont see the reasoning for City2, is it just for land grabbing?
City 3 I get, nice spot on the river with Wheat and Oasis
City 5 I spotted that too. Nice spot with (atleast) 2 Fishish..
4) That is assuming the Sumarians allow us to take 1,2 and 3...
5) Blocking greece (assuming its is a choke point) is not a priority?
6) Trading needs to happen soon, because of the persian Spear on its way w of sc3. Mas+Pot for Alpha+70g seems like a good deal to me :)
7) Should we then "trade" around Warrior code and Pottery if even way below their price to the other 2 civs at 10g?
8) Was it not a waste of a GH to not have traded BW to the Sumerians? We might have gotten Ironworking or something instead if I had traded it.
9) Is there a reasoning to most new towns being on the city radius edge of the other?
10) did it help at all to Pensil in them notes on the pic?

Glad I did OK appearently :)

Greetz

Editted 9 and 10 in
 
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