TGOMTG Conquest Class Challenge (C3C)

[namliaM]

Just looking at the save and noticed both workers were working different tiles, wouldn’t it be better to have them both work the same tile? That would be the equivalent of three normal workers.

Esspecially when roading NO, 2 Workers will take Step-Step-Road-Road-Step-Step-Road-Road = 8 worker turns to complete 2 roads.
If you use them seperatly:
Worker 1: Step-road-Road = 3 turns
Worker 2: Step-road-Road = 3 turns
Totaly 6 turns, maybe when roads are there it may be nice to stack them (when needed).
Or that is what I learned from reading the article in the WA a while ago.

Also would it be wiser to build our 2nd city near the dyes by Wa2? My reasoning is the dyes are fairly close to Sumeria and there is a better chance of them being taken by Sumeria than the spices being gathered up by Greece? Granted the AI’s have better production and may have it before we even get our first settler out.

Having your second city that far away will mean lots of corruption, hampering your growth to much (IMO). Better to keep closer to home.

I’m not very good at settler factories so I’ll mention this to the rest of you, but how tough would it be to use the wheat to the NE of Washington as a settler factory (next to the river and oasis)?

I dont know, I have never even had a settler factory

Wow, there are four luxury resources within view already (not for sure about the bananas on if they are a lux).

Bananas (Tropical fruit) are not a lux, simply add 1 food and 1 commerce.

Noticed Greece already has wines hooked up.

Some have all the luck

Great game namliaM!

Thanx, the Mailman feels honored, but me thinks i did nothing special (except maybe not trade )

Greetz

 

[Whomp]

NamliaM--when I quoted your post with the pic you were trying to post something that was not in jpeg or any other pic format.

Usually what I do is
Go to "upload file" at the bottom of this page then
"Browse" I put the picture on my desktop and "upload" it.
Then the "upload9" pops up. I open it right click the pic "copy shortcut" and paste it between

The other questions are for your teammates.
If I have one suggestion it would be to write down Bede's 3 rules before all trades and answer the questions in detail and to why or why not.

 

[namliaM]

NamliaM--when I quoted your post with the pic you were trying to post something that was not in jpeg or any other pic format.

Usually what I do is
Go to "upload file" at the bottom of this page then
"Browse" I put the picture on my desktop and "upload" it.
Then the "upload9" pops up. I open it right click the pic "copy shortcut" and paste it between

All I find is "Manage attachments" I then did the Upload and copy paste the link and img part, but no luck. Is is an jpg you can see it as attached image.

The other questions are for your teammates.
If I have one suggestion it would be to write down Bede's 3 rules before all trades and answer the questions in detail and to why or why not.

I included that in my txt file

 

[Bede]

2) Why City1 below the river and not just over, this would bring 3th BG?

Good catch. Then put another town 3NE then 1E and shut the door to the south for Sumeria. Over the river makes for defensive movement issues but the extra production is probably worth it.

3) I dont see the reasoning for City2, is it just for land grabbing?

You are right. Move C1 to your spot NE of the river and C2 is not necessary. My thinking was to provide support to C3 and C2 with one move foot soldiers and putting it there pulls in the third BG for C1

City 3 I get, nice spot on the river with Wheat and Oasis
City 5 I spotted that too. Nice spot with (atleast) 2 Fishish..

C3 on the river has its problem as it is on a floodplain, but I think we can live with that with wheat and oasis handy. Use it for workers and the disease problem won't be so bad.

C5 is an excellent fishing village spot.

4) That is assuming the Sumarians allow us to take 1,2 and 3...
5) Blocking greece (assuming its is a choke point) is not a priority?

On #4 we will probably have to waltz with the Sumerians to keep them from heading south. Sc1 and Wa2 are postioned to do some of that.

On #5 the Greeks will get to the choke before we ever could and the terrain will keep them from coming further north if we claim the spices.

6) Trading needs to happen soon, because of the persian Spear on its way w of sc3. Mas+Pot for Alpha+70g seems like a good deal to me
7) Should we then "trade" around Warrior code and Pottery if even way below their price to the other 2 civs at 10g?

Trading is up to you guys so I won't comment.

8) Was it not a waste of a GH to not have traded BW to the Sumerians? We might have gotten Ironworking or something instead if I had traded it.

That is one of those "hard to say" RNG kinda things. IIRC a tech has to be known to 4 and then the dice are thrown before it pops from a hut.

9) Is there a reasoning to most new towns being on the city radius edge of the other?

1 and 2 and 3 in the original map overlap. 4 is a stretch to get the spices without having to clear any marshland.

I like to have my towns within a day's march of each other for defensive purposes. In this game there are good reasons to stretch a little, though, so any other settlement options need to be considered. There are far better urban planners lurking out there (and in this game) than meself , so speak up and you will be heard.

Glad I did OK appearently

 

[Whomp]

All I find is "Manage attachments" I then did the Upload and copy paste the link and img part, but no luck. Is is an jpg you can see it as attached image.

Forget "Manage attachments". I load my saves from there but when you have multiple pic saves at the bottom of this page you'll see this...

Forum Rules - Chat Room - Upload File - Contact Us - Civilization Fanatics' Center - Archive - Top

 

[eldar]

lurker's comment:
Where did this "known by 4 to be hut-popped" thing come from? Gambits such as the Russian hut-popping-Philo-Scientific-triple-slingshot would never work if this were the case! And I've popped Philosophy from a hut before any others have known it enough times (you still get the free tech).

 

[Bede]

@eldar.

As I am neither omniscient nor infallible, I must have recalled it incorrectly. As you have played far more games than I, you are indubitably correct.

 

[namliaM]

Forget "Manage attachments". I load my saves from there but when you have multiple pic saves at the bottom of this page you'll see this...

Forum Rules - Chat Room - Upload File - Contact Us - Civilization Fanatics' Center - Archive - Top

Ah found it Will try it soon ....

 

[namliaM]

Good catch. Then put another town 3NE then 1E and shut the door to the south for Sumeria. Over the river makes for defensive movement issues but the extra production is probably worth it.

You are right. Move C1 to your spot NE of the river and C2 is not necessary. My thinking was to provide support to C3 and C2 with one move foot soldiers and putting it there pulls in the third BG for C1

Hmmmm... I might just get the drift of this yet... Just another question. Is the spacing the not a bit whide? Making it a bit more/to much like Optimal city? Or is that the idea for Space?

C3 on the river has its problem as it is on a floodplain, but I think we can live with that with wheat and oasis handy. Use it for workers and the disease problem won't be so bad.

Why not move that one 1N to the hill? Then add 1 more town 4SE from this one to pull in the oasis and close the circel to C5.

C5 is an excellent fishing village spot.

Yep, I agree

On #4 we will probably have to waltz with the Sumerians to keep them from heading south. Sc1 and Wa2 are postioned to do some of that.

You mean block their settlers? Or capture some slaves?

On #5 the Greeks will get to the choke before we ever could and the terrain will keep them from coming further north if we claim the spices.

It would take sending Settler 1&2 directly i think. And would have the same drawback as claiming the dyes near sumarians. Stunted growth for the long tracking and high corruption.

Trading is up to you guys so I won't comment.

My oppion is clear then. But if you are a sideliner as such, should you be as deep in on planning the city's?

That is one of those "hard to say" RNG kinda things. IIRC a tech has to be known to 4 and then the dice are thrown before it pops from a hut.

It is hindsight tho, I would normaly never have made that trade anyway.

Them town moving would make it (more or less like so, see attached CAII pic)
Where C2 will turn out to be a nice city, having 5BG in its city radius.
That is if and if the Sumarians will let us.....
Losing 1 desert tile is not a problem I would guess. For the small strip of fertile land left we can plonk in another town just S of the lake.

Greetz

 

[soul_warrior]

again all i do i take a nap and i miss 3 pages.

about the persian warrior and the trade - cant see save, but pic makes him about 10 turns hard march from greece, so i guess we can wait till then to trade.

didnt ANYONE notice there are four luxes on our land mass? as far as i know that means we have one more critter to meet and block, following the 1 lux per civ per landmass rule.

city placement issues - IMHO we need to block the north first as i dont think Alex will rush into the jungles so soon, especially if we get the silks.

will load the save later and see some more.

 

[namliaM]

Soul, Actually its sumaria not greece. Greece is "way down south", tile or 20 or so) while we have not even seen persian land tho its somewhere E-SE of us.

But never the less if we can make contact over the distance so can they, dont forget they have extra units as well. So probably faster scouting.

I am but guessing here that 140g for pottery is not to bad of a deal

Greetz

Edit: P.s. Bede "no SCI/REL cheap culture" means no Temples? Or are temples allowed?

Edit2: If blocking the Sumarians is "that" important, maybe we should backfill. Meaning First the far one (City3) then the closer one. It will mean a bit of a loss on growth over all. But if that is what it takes and it is that important... Maybe we should...

 

[soul_warrior]

Soul, Actually its sumaria not greece. Greece is "way down south", tile or 20 or so) while we have not even seen persian land tho its somewhere E-SE of us.

But never the less if we can make contact over the distance so can they, dont forget they have extra units as well. So probably faster scouting.

point taken, but i never was a details person...
just working with what i rememebered and saw on the pix (or think i did )

I am but guessing here that 140g for pottery is not to bad of a deal

yep seems ok i guess. i still hate feeding the AI, but i need to start thinking differently now, dont EYE?

Edit: P.s. Bede "no SCI/REL cheap culture" means no Temples? Or are temples allowed?

now you've done it, namelia... now you've really done it.
dont say the T word near the monk, and if you do, do like me.
*putting on my sandals, running away into the jungle. maybe here the or wont find me

 

[Methos]

We can trade Masonry+72g for Alpha
OR Masonry+Pottery for Alpha+70g with Greece, Should we?
Alpha is still Monopoly & not very brokerable as there is not much tech and/or gold around except Greece.
Pottery is knows to both Persia and Sumeria! If they meet Greece I dont think Pottery will be worth 142g anymore.

I would probably agree on the Masonry & Pottery for Alphabet & 70 gold, it seems worth it. I don’t believe we should trade yet with the other two AI’s as they only have 10 gold. By the looks of it Greece has a contact that is still unknown to us. With the amount of gold they have plus CB I’m guessing they have met Babylon as their the only ones with CB. If I am correct than that means we have at least one other AI on our continent. This also means that Babylon has Alphabet now. Granted, I could be entirely wrong and Greece got everything in GH’s.

1) Do we need it?
2) Can we afford it?
3) Can we broker it for new knowledge or gold?

Using the above guidelines my opinion would be:

1. Yes. Alphabet is the prerequisite for a lot of great techs.
2. Yes. As Mailman stated, two other AI’s already have Masonry and one AI has Pottery.
3. At this time No. The other AI’s don’t have the gold to buy anything, but we have yet to explore the entire continent yet so I believe IMO it can be.

Note: If I am correct in Babylon being on our continent than Alphabet would not be able to be traded to them as I’m assuming they already have it.

By using those guidelines I believe the deal is worth pursuing.

Build Order: As soon as the granary is done what should we build next? We can’t immediately start a settler as it will finish one turn before Washington grows to pop 3. Should we build another warrior and than a settler?

Settler: I noticed that Bede numbered the new cities on his city site map, do those numbers correspond with the order we are building our new cities? I’m just curious as to where our next city will be built? By the sounds of it we are expanding first to the east to block off Sumeria.

Edit: I noticed Bede's and Mailman's city numbers agree with each other up to 4, so this is our possible build order on cities. One thing though, Mailman's #4 city wouldn't have much in the way of growth unless we irrigated a lot.

Demands: Are we giving into all demands at this stage of the game?

 

[namliaM]

Build order: I think warrior-Settler would be OK. Then a Archer-settler to continue (if it fits in) in Washington. There is a Forest left near Washington, we may want to build a Barracks after the 2nd settler using that chop to speed it up a bit. Leaving 30 shields (would take 6 turns at 5spt or pop 2)
Making the 1 mine on the river and maybe one more on the nw side will be all we need near washington for a while with above sequence it will be 4+6+5+6 (I am guessing a bit) = 21 turns before we reach above pop 3 so 3 mines realy all thats needed.

As I suggested we may want to backfill changing 1 & 2, It would be a great site for a nice city there, to bad no river... But atleast 5 bg to be mined and 3 forest to be choped (may be BG below) and some Marsch (that is not so good, but maybe again BG below)

So after the 3rd mine to be created by Wo2 use Wo1 to road ahead NW over the BGs. Maybe make a 4th mine NW of Washington to make sure then Mine in behind Wo1 using Wo2.

Note the citys are not in the same place! Bede vs My map

I think 1&2 (or 2&1) are must haves. 3 is *nice*
4 is optional because of the needed irrigations and stuff
5 & 6 will come with time, no one to really take it I guess but us to assimilate it .

If we go and do the trade for Alpha, and maybe have a shot at writing from a GH? (positive thinking), we can build Curraghs. Might be another reason to have 2 first. Get the boat(s) out! Maybe using a chop from one of them 3 forests.

Going off to bed for the night.

Regards

The Mailman

P.S. Happy Hunting
P.P.S. According to CAII the approx cost for pottery is 51 (gold?)
P.P.P.S. If the 2, meaning persia & Sumeria, do meet One has Pottery other has Warrior code they trade and we are out 20g

 

[S'ven]

Well, since I'm the only one in the SG that hasn't made a comment yet...

Pottery+Masonry=Alphabet+70g? Looks fine to me. I don't know really, I'm just observing and taking in the opinions of others, and going along with the ones that seem to be stronger. I'll edit in more into this post after, and if by some odd chance someone reads this before I can edit, I'll make a new post.

Obviously, one of our eventual goals is to bring out the pointy sticks and make a conquest into one of our opponents lands. When will our goals for this be? What date do we want that to be accomplised by? Who will we even want to attack? The Sumerians will have a border established with us pretty soon.

In terms of dot maps and city placement, I'm really quite hopeless. I just go for ring city placement. (Even though I've never played Vanilla or PTW.)
I'll just leave it to you guys to figure the city priorities out.

Basically, my #1 goal in this is to survive. To beat a variant like this, while on a level that is largely new to me, will basically have me playing at the top of my civ game. Hopefully you guys won't have to restart any of my turns. I can do trading and diplomacy pretty well. I would consider myself to be average at worker management. I know I'll have a couple wasted worker turns, but they won't affect the game. I can be a warmonger pretty well. However, I find myself very hesitant to build infastructure such as libraries and temples. However, since libraries will be pretty useless, and apparently since saying "temple" near bede is like signing yourself a death warrant; I guess I won't be worrying about infastructure.

 

[Methos]

To beat a variant like this, while on a level that is largely new to me, will basically have me playing at the top of my civ game. Hopefully you guys won't have to restart any of my turns.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I can count the number of times I have won on Regent on one hand! Basically, I'm not that good either (okay, I kind of suck) and Emperor is way out of my league as well. All I'm trying to say is don't sit quietly, we need all the help we can get to beat this game. I'm hoping no one has to restart any of my turns.

P.P.P.S. If the 2, meaning persia & Sumeria, do meet One has Pottery other has Warrior code they trade and we are out 20g

Hmm, hadn't thought of it that way. Would it be better to hold off and watch their units to see if they are about to meet, and then trade? I'm just not sure 20 gold is worth it. My reasoning is that since we are not self-researching very soon we will be having gold running out of are ears. Do we want to sell these techs so cheap? Granted they are first tier so they'll have them soon anyway so I'm not really sure either way.

 

[S'ven]

Hmm, hadn't thought of it that way. Would it be better to hold off and watch their units to see if they are about to meet, and then trade? I'm just not sure 20 gold is worth it. My reasoning is that since we are not self-researching very soon we will be having gold running out of are ears. Do we want to sell these techs so cheap? Granted they are first tier so they'll have them soon anyway so I'm not really sure either way.

I'm agreeing with Methos here. At most, we sell Warrior Code for 10g, the AI loves to self research it. Even there you're pushing it. There is no way that I would sell the ability to double growth to a civ for a mere 10g. I know you aren't going to get full price for techs in the ancient age, but 10g only? That's a little extreme.

 

[Methos]

Greece: Masonry & Pottery for Alpha & 70 gold

It appears as the consensus is an agreement on the above trade so when I start this will be my first action; obviously after ending Mailman’s turn. Though I do believe Soul was more apt to wait a few turns. One thing though, if I am guessing right about Babylon also being on our continent we can’t be sure when Persia and Xman will meet since we don’t know anything about the Babylonians. Again, my guessing may be way off.

Build order will be warrior than settler if everyone agrees on that. So far I believe only Mailman and I have commented on that.

What date do we want that to be accomplised by? Who will we even want to attack?

I would say first we should go for just expansion and attempt to grab up all the free land possible. Until everything is owned I’d suggest we stay away from war.

I believe we are ready to continue unless anyone has any objections. BTW, how do we know when to continue Bede? Do you inform us?

 

[Bede]

@Methos - Only requirement is pick up in 24 and post your log and save in 48 after that. Everybody has had a chance to chime in, so you are good to go.

@the team
Trading analysis is sound.

City placement discussion also. My original map was for discussion purposes and I think you guys have come up with a better one.

Warfare should wait until we have built into the best territory we can. Mu personal preference is to eliminate the Sumerians, but their cheap Enkidu warriors are not an easy kill, so we will need veteran troops, archers or better.

Do not build anything but cheap warriors for MP and settler escort in towns without barracks.[/BOLD]

Let's have some fun. You can all play a lot better than you think you can judging from the discussion.

 

[namliaM]

Agree on the warrior part, tho we may want a reg archer or 2 to hunt down some barb tents.
In city 2 and 3 i think we should start Barracks build straight of settling them. Then if we have the wheel by then maybe Settler(if possible)-Chariot or even Settler-Horsemen combo's

Maybe no barracks in 1 of them towns (be it Washington or a later town, any number bigger than 3) without to do warrior/warrior/settler or something....

2 workers (IMO) should be OK up to city#3, using the prebuild idea of working. Once city#4 comes around we may need more workers.

Greetz

I still think getting 142 gold for pottery (even if that means possibly doubling growth on the other side) They will research or trade it somewhere else pretty soon anyway. Spending 72 or trading Pottery and getting 70 making Pottery worth a (massive) 142g is not a bad thing. But that is my oppion