That Deity Willem Map


Lord Croissant
Jun 21, 2008
I got caught up playing a very nice Deity map and ended up spamming Lain's thread.

I'll move the rest of the write-up here and repost the starting save.


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Last edited:
AcaMetis' Grudge Map
Alright, let's see how bad it is.

Write up Part 1

*SPOILER ALERT for the Willem Map that AcaMetis provided*
Spoiler :
T1 - 3960BC
Spoiler :
Oh hell, 631 Land Tiles and high seas. :eek:
Fractal is a mix of different map types right?
6AI means we all get 90 tiles on average, but I start with 1 city and they get 2 cities and 2 workers and scouts and archers.
Cultural + Financial + Fishing + Agriculture hmm

I will be squashed like a pancake if I can't expand.
Settling on top of the hill will give +50% defense to Archers.
Max food is at Size 7 working 5 farms, Cow, and Lighthouse powered lake. +10:food: per turn.
A LOT of worker turns.

Ugh, getting a 2nd Settler out will be tough with 3:food: farms and Cow.
Will probably eventually cottage the Dye since I'm Financial.

Animal Husbandry is 169 beakers and Hunting is 67 beakers.
I need 169/1.2 = 140.8 beakers to get Animal Husbandry, or 169/1.4 = 120.7 beakers if I tech Hunting first.

The 20 beaker savings is not worth it to lose 5 worker turns.
Plus if I meet enough AI, I should get a 4 or 5% tech bonus for each one since they all start out knowing Hunting

T3 - 3880BC
Spoiler :
Decent spot for a 2nd city.
Need Iron Working before the gems can be used.
No game mod means constant checking for war plotting and no fail gold except from Wonders.

T4 - 3840BC
Spoiler :
Oh, that is discouraging.
Genghis Khan is close
He is a true psycho who is at war constantly and spams units.
Do I want to slow down my 2nd city a few turns and get Hunting first to open up Archers faster? :hmm:
I can deselect my tech all the way up until Turn 5 when I must choose my 1st tech.
Khan WILL attack me being so close and me popping borders frequently causing border pressure.

T5 - 3800BC
Khan doesn't have an early game unique unit, so he needs horses or bronze units before he can start plotting war against me. (2% per turn base chance I think)
In addition, barbs will probably be scarce on a tightly packed map, so the need for Archery right away is not urgent.
Choosing Worker as fast as possible and Animal Husbandry first.
20 beaker bonus from Hunting->Animal Husbandry can be discarded for more Worker turns and faster growth towards 2nd city.
Barb animals should start spawning now. Safe to move Warrior onto the scout's spot since barbs won't spawn within 2 units of AI units.

T8 - 3680BC
Spoiler :
Unfogged a coastal route, so Trade Routes will work if I get Sailing and Open Borders with Genghis.
Nothing too great, 2nd city has Stone.
Will need to watch out for 2:move: Panthers. There is a lot of jungle.
Deity AI do tile improvements at double speed, so it might be worth letting Genghis settle and chop the jungle for me.

T10 - 3600BC
Spoiler :
I feel that many people aren't quite sure of the best use of the 1st Warrior?
Worker stealing is best if Aggressive AI is on, but without that the Deity AI are just too hard to turn the war off against.
Cease Fires are a function of war success and power rating once the required number of turns before the AI will talk peace will pass.

My Warrior can either
1) Search for more city sites.
I am boxed in on 2 sides by water and a 3rd by jungle, so only the northern coast might yield another close city.
2) Fogbust the frontier and rack up XP to keep the capital safe
3) Keep exploring the map

I feel I can handle the few barbs that spawn to my west with the improved cows, and I got a decent 2nd city site already, so exploring it is.

T13 - 3480BC
GK's Empire
Spoiler :
Genghis is hammer rich!
Unit spam enganged.
Capital is 1 south of Cows.

T14 - 3440BC
Worker is pasturing Cows.
If GK has a source of Horse anywhere, I'm in for a very early war declaration.

T16 - 3360BC

Spoiler :
Got vision on the capital.
Genghis is bordered to the south by water.
And Genghis has Horse in his 3rd ring, while I do not! :cry:
That means Chariots around Turn 55+ and then war once his capital expands.
Or even earlier if his 2nd city gets a Monument.

Am I semi-isolated with Genghis Khan?!
No 2nd AI yet.

I am crippled by the lack of mods feeding me info.
Have to hold down Control and click on Genghis to see how many cities he has.
Barbs will rush me when the average number of cities in the world exceeds 3, so when the Deity AI settles a 3rd city I have to start paying attention to barbs.

With the graph for Power I can calculate my power rating with Genghis using Microsoft Paint? :hmm:
My bar is 32 pixels tall and his is 563, so my Power Ratio with him is 32/563 = 0.0568
I can check this using Soldiers in the Demo Screen comparing mine to the max Soldiers.
So I have 4000/40000 = 0.1 Power Ratio with world's strongest AI.
Hmm, OK the Microsoft paint thing does not work :lol:

Actually, I see how to read it now. :D
The whole window is 590 pixels tall with 1600x900 resolution.
Genghis' bar is 590 pixels tall and mine is 59 pixels tall.
The ratio of my soldiers to Genghis' soldiers is 59 to 590 or 10% or 0.1 Power Ratio with Genghis.

Not sure how Buffy and Bug Mod keeps track of precise Power Ratio.
I'm very weak anyway.

What to tech next......
I can't really use 1 AI as a trading partner.
Cottages? Writing for Open Borders? Bronze Working?
Spoiler :

Oh LOL, Genghis is Imperialistic with +50% faster Settlers.
His 1 pop city has 79 Hammers in something, so unless he got Mysticism and is building Stonehenge, he is making a new Settler.
In his 1 pop city.....

The Formula to calculate hammers in a city from the espionage screen is:
(Sabotage Production/City Revolt) * (650/6)
So for Beshbalik that is (633/858)*(650/6)=79.9 hammers
Probably a Settler unless it goes over 100

Will take The Wheel -> Pottery -> Writing
If I take Bronze Working and there is no Bronze, I am dead in the water.
If I have a trio of Cottages and a Half Priced Library, I have options.

T17 - 3320BC
Spoiler :
Another Imperialist civ that likes war!
Thank goodness, Julius Caesar.
Will switch EPs to Julius since Genghis is just going to beeline military techs.

T20 - 3200BC
Spoiler :
Yay, a somewhat normal AI. (3rd Imperialistic, really?!)
The 2nd strongest in the game Justinian.
Switching espionage to him now.
Ghenghis is Annoyed with Justinian, and Justinian is Pleased with Julius.
I need to get his religion as fast as possible!
And then turn Genghis towards Justinian.

T21 - 3160BC
Spoiler :
Grabbed some XP and will only build 2 cottages instead of 3 for more food.

T22 - 3120BC
Rome has Bronze Working already.

T24 - 3040BC
Spoiler :
Genghis Khan has a 3rd sweet city now, before 3000BC >_<.

T25 - 3000BC
Spoiler :
Thank goodness, a 3rd city site with Ocean Fish.
My capital can pop borders next turn and secure it for later.

T27 - 2920BC
Julius has 3 cities.
Barb Archer chasing around my western Warrior.

T29 - 2840BC
Spoiler :
All 3 AI now have 3 cities, so the barb lemming rush towards cities will start soon.
Getting my Warriors ready for the onslaught, but it shouldn't be too bad with so many AI scouts wandering around fogbusting for me.
Genghis has Bronze Working.
Hindu was founded T28 pretty late.

T31 - 2760BC
Everything feels secure.
Now it's a race against Genghis to settle down near those gems.
..... Ah crap, Genghis just whipped his capital down from 4 to 2.
4th Settler?
I hate Imperialistic Civs on Deity!
Spoiler :

T33 - 2680BC

Spoiler :
Genghis has me nervous.
Going for Writing and Open Borders might be a bridge too far.
Will play it safe and go for Bronze Working since I have a 3rd city site.
Should get a nice bonus since most AI know it now, and I'll have 2 fat cottages almost doubling my tech rate in 15 turns.
Switching from Writing to Mining.

T36 - 2560BC
Julius adopted Buddhism.
Genghis has another large build in his capital.

T37 - 2520BC
Spoiler :
Yay, the barbs have a nasty hilltop city.
It will give the Deity AI something to burn their extra troops against.

T39 - 2440BC
Woops, my 1st micro mistake.
Also, Rome has 5 Cities!!!
Spoiler :
Went 1NW 1NW.
Should have went 1W, 1NW, 1N

T42 - 2320BC
Spoiler :
Northern 4th Warrior died to barb Archer with Roman city visible up north.
Barbs are pushing towards my capital ignoring my Warriors fortified with good odds.

Genghis has a 4th city, but it is not near gems. Not sure where it is.

T43 - 2280BC
Stonehenge built by an Unknown civ with 7 population!

T45 - 2200BC
Spoiler :
Finally have a 2nd City.
Not much hope for Bronze anywhere, so I'll go ahead and settle now.
Bronze in 3 turns and another city in 6 turns.

T48 - 2080BC
Spoiler :
Bronze Working is mine.
Genghis settled a 5th city in the middle of the jungle after T47, and I might have a play for Bronze! :eek:
Going for it might touch off a war with border pressure and Land Target status later, but I could really use that Bronze if Genghis isn't going to settle there.

Taking a break...
Break over.
Thanks for the energy Cardgame
Spoiler :

T50 - 2000BC
Spoiler :
Judaism founded far away.
Looks like a giant Buddhist group hug this game.
Need to get Genghis to Pleased for 90% nowar probs so he will go hassle Justinian hopefully.
The Turn 60 +1 peace with everyone might fix the Annoyed between them sadly.
Genghis should now have the Horse tile with the capital border pop.

That Bronze site would be a good spot for a Worker pump.
Need more Settlers, hmm

..Oh Damn, Praetorians!
Spoiler :

T51 - 1960BC
Spoiler :
Genghis looks determined to crush that hilltop barb city.

T53 - 1880BC
Spoiler :
No 2nd Worker, no 4th Settler???

Double whipping capital down to 1 pop to get Granary.
Doing Granary in 2nd city too.
Want to be able to focus on production later

T54 - 1840BC

Damn Genghis!
What a pain.
Made a mistake, Justinian founded Judaism :D and switched to Org. Religion, so maybe there will be some Jewish drama if Mongols get a spread.
Send me a Buddhist Missionary Justinian! :please:
Spoiler :
Stupid Settler

Continued in Part 2
Last edited:
Write up Part 2

What a monster.

*SPOILER ALERT for the Willem Map that AcaMetis provided*
Spoiler :

Turn 55 - 1800BC
Spoiler :
Game Over?
Rome is mobilizing for war with his Praetorians and I still don't have Bronze.
He is Cautious with everyone, so not sure who the target is.

T57 - 1720BC
Spoiler :
Oracle was built in a faraway land. Mongols got Great Wall in capital.

Rome DoW'ed Justinian!!! :clap:

T60 - 1600BC
Spoiler :
Genghis Cautious with Justinian boooo
Settled Bronze City
When it pops borders on T64 I will become a Land Target and get some border tension penalties.
Might even steal that Wheat :lol:

Will chop and whip as many Axes and Spears as possible before Genghis goes crazy on me.

T63 - 1480BC
Spoiler :
Groan, of course Genghis has Iron in his capital.
Combat 1 City Raider 1 Swords for the win!

T64 - 1440BC
Spoiler :
Boom, stole the Wheat.
This caused -3 Border Tensions diplo the following turn 65 when the Land Target kicked in. :(

T65 - 1400BC
Spoiler :
Rome crushed the barb hilltop city with Praets

T67 - 1320BC
Spoiler :
Genghis lost an army of 5 Archers and 1 Chariot suiciding another hilltop barb city.

T68 - 1280BC
Spoiler :
Rome asked me to DOW Justinian.
He is much stronger and will probably wipe out Justinian sooner or later.
I agreed and DOW'd Justinian.

T69 - 1240BC
Spoiler :
Genghis sent a 2nd army against the barb hilltop city.
Hopefully it will die too :)

Played a bit more very early this morning.

T71 - 1160BC
Spoiler :
Gifted a city to the west of my capital in the jungle and got +4 Fair Trade diplo! :woohoo:
Genghis captured the last barb city losing 3 more crappy units.
Made another Settler for 4th city.

Gnn, need that Fish city north of my capital more than jungle Elephants and jungle Sugar.
Will need 1 more Settler to go up and get elephants around T85 ish.

T74 - 1040BC
Spoiler :
Whipping the Library in my capital before a final Settler for jungle Elephants.
Need Alpha fast, before Genghis starts plotting war.
Copper city has been a sore for Genghis since Turn 65.
Close border tensions is now up to -4 diplo due to the gift city west of my capital sharing even more tiles.
Keep hoping Genghis demands my stolen Wheat for +1 dilplo and 10 turns of Peace (he is 10/10 for makes demands) but it has not happened yet.
If he demands Copper?
I'll cry and probably refuse! :lol:
Maybe :cry:

T75 - 1000BC
Rome is a beast.
Spoiler :

T76 - 960BC
Spoiler :
Justinian is to his west with 3 cities
Settled my 4th good city, the Fish to the north.
Genghis built Pyramids just south of my Bronze City! :eek:
I will lose the stolen wheat now because of the +8:culture: per turn I'll be fighting, but I might have a chance to get Pyramids later in a war.
Should probably whip a Library in the bronze city so I don't flip, and I can also try to flip the 2 jungle cities to the north and east hehe.

Will have 3 more Axes around T79 with my 2nd city 2-pop whipping a pair of them.

T77 - 975BC
Genghis adopts Police State for +25%:hammers: for military units. >_<

T78 - 925BC

Spoiler :
Genghis is sending up a strong Setttling party up towards my elephants.
Might have to grab the northmost elephant on the edges.

T80 - 875BC
Spoiler :
Justinian founded the Buddhist Shrine.
That should help spread Buddhism more :D
He also built the Oracle earlier and chose Monarchy I think.

T83 - 800BC
Spoiler :
My bronze city is now strongly defended by 5 Axes.

The Settler for elephants is a go.
Not sure where Genghis' Settler went that was going north?
He is still not plotting any war too. :)

T84 - 775BC
ALPHABET is mine! :mwaha:
Spoiler :
The Great Lighthouse was on a different continent. Oh well.
Time for some trading....
Spoiler :

Oh crap, Rome will give nothing for Alpha, he must almost already have it. :cry:
Mongols have most of Pottery, so I need to put 1 turn into Sailing to trade Writing for it.
Deity AI tend to value human techs at 78% of their beaker value I find.
Traded Fish to Rome for Corn to get more health and start the clock on getting 50/100 resource turns for +diplo.
Spoiler :

No chance on getting Iron.

Justinian is at war and won't Cease Fire.
I don't have enough war success or a high enough Power Ratio with him to make that happen.
He wants a city and 10 turns of peace treaty. hmm
I guess I can built 1 more city to gift away somewhere for a Peace Treaty.
Doing it that way won't cause me any diplo penalties for "trading with Worst Enemy" since it was a Peace Deal.
Losing a 100:hammers: city is well worth being able to trade Alphabet for Iron Working.
Spoiler :

Ah, some of you lurkers are silently screaming that if I sign a Peace Treaty with Justinian then I will be at -3 (Annoyed) with him and won't be able to trade Alphabet for his techs.
I'll just be throwing away an expensive Settler for no gain.

Well, Justinian is one of those nice AI that will trade at Annoyed.
Attitude Thresholds
Will open borders: Annoyed
Will trade techs: Annoyed

The trick is that AI won't trade with their Worst Enemy, which applies to whichever civilization they hate the most (worst negative diplo) AND are Annoyed or Furious with.
That means Julius of Rome is Justinian's Worst Enemy, not me.
If Julius wasn't at war with Justinian, then I'd be Justinian's worst enemy and I couldn't trade at Annoyed.
Justinian would just say "We'll never trade with our Worst Enemy"
Last edited:
Write up Part 3

*SPOILER ALERT for the Willem Map that AcaMetis provided*
Spoiler :
Turn 84 - 775BC
Spoiler :
Finally decided on tech trades.
Mainly it involved calculating the tech values and seeing what the human player needs the most.
Sailing is great but isn't vital for me.
I'm not ready for expensive Lighthouses for extra food and already have trade routes.
Best is to study the AI's 'Can Research' column to figure out every tech the AI has.
Note here that Justinian is in the lead with Metal Casting, Monarchy, and all the minor religious techs.
Julius has Meditation and Priesthood.
Genghis has no religious techs.
Spoiler :

Traded Writing and Pottery to Genghis for Masonry because that is the best I could get and I don't want Julius to finish Alpha in 1 turn and trade Writing to Genghis.
Strike while the iron is hot I say.
Also gifted Julius Alphabet since he was 1 turn away from finishing it.
Both civs quickly go to "We Fear You Are Becoming Too Advanced" after seeing me receive 7 techs from trades on Deity, but I plan on being Friendly with Rome and attacking Genghis so only the short term matters here.

Turn 85 - 750BC
Spoiler :
Sweet, Genghis will take Alphabet in trade.
He will Not DOW Justinian for Alpha. :cry:
Traded Alpha for Iron Working + Hunting.
Spoiler :

NO IRON :cry:
I am forsaken, dead last in power rating with no swords.
Spoiler :

Mmm, I'm getting a bad feeling with Genghis again now that my Alphabet gamble failed to get him into war.
Genghis has Horse Archers now! His unique unit that ignores terrain the Keshik :cry:
He is still rolling every turn to bite my head off, but I'm lucky so far.
I should get to +3 total relation on T86 due to Open Borders going to +1 which might get me to Pleased, but then my new 5th city on T87 will put Border Tensions back to -4 and reset me back down to +2 total diplo. (Cautious)
Will be stuck at Cautious with Genghis until well past Turn 100 if I keep Copper city.

I can beg a tiny tech now since I'm a LandTarget tripling my beg amount.
Say most of Mysticism, or less than half of Priesthood.
Actually, that only works at Pleased.
What Power Ratio do I have to be to not have a Demand automatically rejected?
Is it half as strong as the AI? 0.5?

The tech plan seems easy enough.
Get a Great Scientist while teching Mysticism->Polytheism
Trade Poly to Genghis for Sailing.
Trade Poly to Julius for Priesthood.
Tech Code of Laws.
Trade Code of Laws for Math so I don't bulb Math.
Bulb Philosophy.
Get Construction.

Both Rome and Mongols tech military a lot, so that means they should both go for Math and Construction.

How do I survive 25 turns against Mongols?
Hold onto Mysticism and hope Genghis demands it from me for +1 diplo and 10 turns of peace?
Whip unlimited amounts of Axes, Spears, and turtle up behind Walls?

My next Settler will probably go for a (Liberate) up near Rome so I can get +5 diplo with Julius as I attempt to get him Friendly.
I'm thinking on top of the horse so I can whip a few Chariots before the gift.

Code of Laws -> Philo bulb not only lets me trade my way to Elepault, it also gives me a religious capital so I can start occasionally stealing techs due to having good :espionage: modifiers.


T86 - 725BC

Spoiler :
Genghis adopted Bhuddism due to a lucky spread. Everyone is now Buddhist except me.
Cities that have 1 unhappy citizen are good at making Settlers and Workers.
Unhappy citizens consume no :food: when making settlers and workers, so production stays high :)
Should really be 4 hammers per turn, but it is 6.

T88 - 675BC
Spoiler :
Founded my 5th city in the northern jungle, a hot mess.
With 3 elephants, I should control the whole continent's supply except for the one near Genghis' capital.
Will eat up a LOT of worker turns to improve.

T91 - 600BC
Spoiler :
Finally completed Gems, my 1st happy resource.

T93 - 550BC
Spoiler :
Max reseach for my empire.
If Genghis is going to be nice to me, might as well rush for a game changer tech.
Running 2 Scientists in my capital should get Great Scientist on T110.
Every city built :science: since I have Alphabet.

I was wrong about Justinian founding Judaism.
Our continent only has Buddhism.

T94 - 525BC
Spoiler :
Got Polytheism.
Traded it to Rome for Priesthood.

Putting a turn into Sailing for the trade next turn.
Gifted Genghis Mysticism for the trade next turn.

T95 - 500BC
Spoiler :
Gift City to Rome can't settle on Horses.
Moved towards the city ruins to the west.
If I settle there, I can squeeze in 1 more city 3S of there later.

Traded Polytheism to Genghis for Sailing.
Time to chop some Lighthouses.

Spoiler :
Genghis still not plotting anything.
Justinian is strangely incapable of teching Alphabet.
Should I trade Alpha to him for 10 turns of Peace?
Wait, what if he then uses his new tech trading ability and bribes Genghis to DOW me for Metal Casting + a bunch of other stuff?
Genghis is not interested in attacking Rome when I ask, only Justinian. (and presumably me)
What if Justinian techs Alphabet himself?
The first I might know about it is Genghis DOW'ing me!! :twitch:

Bah, there's nothing I can do about it right now.
Been living with the Genghis threat for 45 turns now anyway.

T97 - 450BC
Spoiler :
Someone built Hanging Gardens.
Gifted a city to Julius of Rome for +1 Liberation bonus and +3 Fair Trade.
Up to +10 relations now!

Hooked up Elephants too with all 3 empire workers.
Now I've got 2 sources of happiness.
Elephants aren't too bad when they are riverside with Financial trait.

T98 - 425BC
Spoiler :
Great Scientist in capital still on track for T110.
Traded Elephant to Julius for Cow.
"Appreciate the years of resources" bonus now building up twice as fast with 2 resources in trade.

T101 - 350BC
Spoiler :
Justinian is the 2nd most Advanced Civ in the world.
I'm almost last.
Everyone has Mathematics and are willing to trade it.
A popular tech for AI to get after Alphabet.

T102 - 325BC
Spoiler :
Genghis the wimp finally teched something, Currency.
Priesthood sold for 55 gold!
Elephant City is coming along nicely.

T104 - 275BC
Spoiler :
An extra Settler was produced to turn off the Justinian war without sacrificing a large tech.
When it gets razed to the ground because it is Size 1, that will be another -2 diplo penalty that Justinian will feel towards the offender.

T105 - 250BC
Spoiler :
Code of Laws is mine!
Traded it to Genghis to DOW Justinian.
Everyone on my continent is now at war with distant Justinian, and I am now SAFE :cheers:
Oddly enough, I can't direct him to attack a specific city unless I've actually seen it with a unit or map trade.
Spoiler :

Traded Code of Laws to Julius for Math.
I'm now dangerously close to "We Fear You Are Becoming Too Advanced" with both Julius and Genghis.
1 or 2 more techs will put me over the limit and they will both stop trading with me.

So I'll need to self tech Meditation while waiting until T110 to bulb Philosophy.
Then I will trade it to Genghis for a whole bunch of techs all at once.

Julius is at +10 relations and will soon be Friendly with me and trading me monopoly techs.

Time to tech Meditation, bulb Philosophy, push for Construction, trade for Horseback Riding, and unleash the Elephants and Catapults on Genghis's Pyramid city while his army is up north.
Time to attack, before Longbows appear! :)
Spoiler :

Last edited:
Write up Part 4

*SPOILER ALERT for the Willem Map that AcaMetis provided*
Spoiler :
T106 - 225BC
Someone far away built Mausoleum of M.
Fast teching to get Calendar so quickly.
Maybe there is a 2nd large continent with all the rest of the AI on it?


Spoiler :
So I want to backstab Genghis as hard as possible once he sends a large army north to pound on Justinian.
It won't happen for around 20 turns, so I hope it is a long war and that Genghis just doesn't sit at home, build up a big army, and sign a Cease Fire in 10 turns. :cringe:
I've seen that happen a time or two.

Right now Genghis has 8 cities (5 in improved jungle) with 35 population and only 1 city on a hill.
Worse, Genghis has Pyramids and Police State for +25% military production!

I have 5 cities with 16 population and 1 forest to chop. :lol:

As the attacker I will have an advantage of pooling 1 very large army and attacking in 2 or 3 places where Genghis is the weakest.
My best move right now is to scout all his cities, make notes of what troops he has, and then follow Genghis' army up north and keep an eye on it with a Warrior.

A fast war to gobble up Workers and of couple of cities will let me sign a Cease Fire or Peace Treaty and heal up and digest my gains.
I don't think it is a good idea to try and eat all of Deity Genghis with 1 war.

Also, flipping Genghis into Caste is a bit expensive, but it might pay off if he can't whip for 5 turns. :hmm:

T107 - 200BC
Spoiler :
Plot Culture.
Knowing how in works lets you plan ahead because you know if you will control a tile in the future or not. :)

I built a cheap Library in my bronze city (The Hague) not only to reach 100 culture fast and get 40% defenses, but also to harass the surrounding 3 Genghis cities.
Since I reached 100 culture before two of Genghis' cities reached 10 culture, I was able to start accumulating +25 plot culture per turn on Geghis' inner city ring unopposed.
Then when Genghis reached 10 culture and popped borders for the first time, he started putting +22 plot culture per turn on his inner ring.

In conclusion, I can attack 2 of Genghis' cities on T0 of the coming war! (3 if I count the gift city west of my capital)
I will forever maintain that 55%/44% edge and maintain control of those inner ring tiles because I got 2 borders pops before Genghis got 1 border pop.
Genghis would have to reach 100 culture to push me away from his inner rings like that Pyramid city to the south did.
The power of Willem with cheap Libraries. :)

T108 - 175BC
Spoiler :
Renegotiated my trade deals with Rome.
Traded Elephants for Sugar. (That's 3 happy resources now)

Ugh, Genghis has 80 gold I can beg.
3 more turns until Open Borders reaches +2 and I hopefully get to Pleased.
I don't have enough power rating compared to Genghis to make a Demand.

The Mongol army is streaming north! Woohoo
May they charge forth and die.

More Thoughts
Spoiler :
Now that my Settler is in position, I must ponder what to do with it.
If I give it to Justinian for a peace treaty, I can trade Code of Laws for Monarchy. (Anything given for a peace treaty does not trigger -4 diplomacy "You have traded with our Worst Enemies!")
Metal Casting is a monopoly tech and won't be up for trade.
Or, I could (Liberate) the city to Rome.
This time it would give an additional +2 diplo because I already Liberated one city earlier for +1.5 diplo and it rounded down.
That might be the best option, let me count tiles.
It is 10 tiles from Rome's capital. (diagonal tiles count as 1.5 tiles)
It is 13 tiles from my capital.
It is 17 tiles from Mongol's capital (rounded down from 17.5)
It is ???? tiles from Justinian of the Byzantines capital.
Mmm, my last city gift liberated to Rome just fine, so this one probably will too.

I'm leaning on gifting the city to Rome again.
That +2 diplo will be a huge help, and getting to Friendly now rather than T116 due to resource trading or T118 due to open borders means I can turn off Rome's war with Justinian.
Friendly Rome won't plot war with me during peaceful times. :)
In addition, the long shared Buddhism means Justinian will be at +0 (Cautious) with Rome, and Rome will be at -1 (Cautious) with Justinian.
The following turn, the Worst Enemy tag will vanish and I can safely trade with Justinian for his Monarchy.

Since the city gift will go to Rome instead of Justinian, I need to trade Justinian Code of Laws for a peace treaty.
So Philosophy for Monarchy later.
But wait, don't I have -5 relations with Justinian after the war?
With Rome being +0 because their war ended, that means I'm at 'Annoyed' and am Justinian's 'Worst Enemy' right?
Nope, Justinian will be at war with the Mongols, who will take the Worst Enemy tag and let me trade with Justinian.

No reason to give Rome a free city right now.
Will wait 2 turns.

T109 - 150BC
Spoiler :
Great Spy born in the Mongol's capital!
The AP has been built and united all the world's Hindu's on a different continent.
I don't have to worry about it at all. :D
The AP religion has to spread to every civ in the whole world before Diplomatic Victory is enabled.

Whipped a 4th Worker for my empire since Calendar resources coming soon.

Justinian and Genghis both now have Construction.

T110 - 125BC
Spoiler :
Meditation is mine.
Great Scientist was born in my capital!
Bulbed Philosophy.
Taoism founded in my bronze city The Hague. (aww, was hoping for Elephant city)
Will send the missionary to the gift city west of my capital for future border popping and spy activities.
The 5 Genghis cities that don't have Buddhism should now start getting Tao spreads.
Spoiler :

Founded Gift City #2 and (Liberated) it to Rome for +2 more diplo.
Rome now has a guaranteed source of Elephants for themselves on my border.
Spoiler :

Made a Peace Treaty with Justinian for Code of Laws.
The long war is over and my shared war diplo bonus went back down to +3 with Rome because we no longer share an active war.
Amusingly, all 3 AI got Construction and not one of them was willing to trade it to me.
But now I'm +12 Friendly with Rome and he will trade me Construction.
Spoiler :

T111 - 100BC
Spoiler :
Trading day with Philosophy.
First up is Julius, who is putting quite the price on a Cease Fire with Justinian.
I'm about 300 beakers short of getting Peace + Construction + Calendar.
Spoiler :

If I make any trade at all this turn with Justinian, I'll get diplo penalties with Rome for trading with his worst enemy.
If I make a trade with Rome first, then Genghis will say I'm "becoming too advanced"
The Tech Situation:
Spoiler :

Gave it a ton of thought, and trade Philosophy to Genghis for Horseback Riding, 100 gold, Archer, and Monotheism.
Traded Philosophy to Julius for Construction + Cease Fire with Justinian.
I have to hope Rome does not trade Philosophy to Justinian for Monarchy.
Will trade with Justinian next turn when the "worst enemy" wears off.
Spoiler :

And look at that.
Now that Rome isn't busy, he is willing to DOW Genghis or Justinian for the right price. :devil: :deal: :satan:
Hopefully he doesn't start plotting war against Justinian again the very next turn.
I've seen it happen before.
Buying a stop to a war between 2 AI is a CEASE FIRE, not a 10 Turn Peace Treaty.
Spoiler :

T112 - 75BC
Spoiler :
Haha, I don't believe it.
I am Justinian's worst enemy with -5 relations.
Not Genghis, who is at war with Justinian.
They share a religion, so Genghis is -3 with Justinian.

I guess I'll just wait some turns for "This war spoils our relationship" to build towards -8, but I'm not sure how long that will take. :hmm:

T113 - 50BC
Spoiler :
Genghis and Julius now have Monarchy too.
Will put 90% :espionage: slider on Genghis to take a peek at his tech, but it is probably Feudalism since his flavor is Military (High).
Spoiler :

T114 - 25BC
Spoiler :
Damn, 13 turns until Genghis has Feudalism!
Not the end of the world since he only has 1 hilltop city, but what a pain.

He has large amounts of units on the west coast slowly moving north.
I hope they actually head up there or my war plans are shot.
Lots of jungle cities I could attack hmm.
Spoiler :

Last edited:
Write up Part 5

*SPOILER ALERT for the Willem Map that AcaMetis provided*
Spoiler :
T116 - 25AD
Spoiler :
Ok, deep breath, here we go.
Genghis finally sent up a group of 6 units. May they all die gloriously.

T118 - 75AD
Spoiler :
Genghis sent up another group of 5, with the trailing single Catapult in Gift City 2.
Spoiler :

Jeez, Feudalism sped up 2 turns. Now it is due on T125. :cry:
I need to start my war on T123 to take advantage of the lack of Longbows.
The current situation:
Spoiler :

Turfan, the Pyramids city is too well defended with the wall for me to take and hold.
If I revolted to Representation or Police State and Genghis recaptured the city, I would automatically flip back to Barbarism.

To make this war count, I have to be sneaky and make sure the gain is worth the cost.
Genghis is a vicious AI spamming military units with the Pyramids helping.
I don't have enough resources or time to switch religions and try to make some spy tricks like flipping him to Caste work.
I need a fast war.

So how do I make sure the war goes fast?
Genghis has an iRefuseToTalkWarThreshold = 10 which means if I DOW Genghis, he won't talk to me for 10 turns. (Or Genghis won't talk to me for 20 turns if Genghis DOW's me)
The longest time in the game. :(

However, if I can gain a lot of war success, then he will talk to me much faster.
Winning a battle is 4 war success, capturing a Worker is worth 1, and capturing a city is 10.
All I need to do is gift him 2 of my 5 cities the turn of the war, and then capture them back with Chariots.
This will remove the massive amounts of whip anger I've built up in the cities.
It will also destroy any culture buildings like Libraries and reset my food to 0.
That is totally worth it since I have cheap libraries.

Recapturing 2 cities and then gobbling up 3 more should get Genghis to the peace table in 2 turns.
Then I can trade him 1 of the 3 cities I took back to him for a 10 turn peace treaty.
I plan on capturing Rotterdam and Ning-Hsia on Turn 0 of the war.
Then Old Sarai on Turn 1 of the war.
Peace for Ning-Hsia on Turn 2 of the war
before his vast war machine can butcher me. :crazyeye:
Spoiler :

The follow on consequences of this fight will be that Mongol units stop streaming north since our borders will be closed, and I get -1 relations with Rome since Julius is Pleased with Genghis.
It should be manageable.
I can always DOW Justinian again and instantly sign Open Borders with Mongols again due to shared war if I need another Genghis army to travel north.
I am +14 with Rome now and can always switch to Buddhism in the future to get more relations and keep Friendly.

If I let too many units north and Genghis gets 40 war success against Justinian and vassals him, I will kick myself.

Rome should trade me Horse for Bronze+Elephants for 1 turn.

When the 2nd war starts far in the future, Ning-Hsai and Thracian will be cut off from Genghis' empire since my empire surrounds them on both coasts, so those 2 cities will produce just Longbows.

T122 - 175AD
Spoiler :
Rome got Currency 1 turn before I did.
Drats. Was wasting 58 gold to see if Genghis was teching Feudalism on Turn 113 a good idea?
Maybe! :crazyeye:

Rome only borders 7 of my land tiles, so I'm 1 away from being a LandTarget for him and getting triple sized begs.
Will hold off begging anything from Rome for now.
Got Horses and Silk from Rome for Bronze and Elephants. This will be a 1 turn deal.
Spoiler :

Good news though, Genghis finally built up enough "this war spoils our relationship" to become the worst enemy of Justinian finally, so I traded Philosophy for Monarchy.
It gave me +1 fair trade boost with Justinian and no "trading with worst enemy" penalty with Genghis.
I'm now -4 total diplo with Justinian.
Spoiler :

My 2 gift cities are producing their own Chariots in a single turn to retake themselves to start the war next turn :lol:
Spoiler :

T123 - 200AD
War with Genghis!!! :ar15:
Spoiler :
Here we go.
Both my gift cities had major whip anger problems.
The Chariots were ready to proceed.

Gifted Nijmegen and Utrecth to Genghis.
Got a -4 "You traded with our Worst Enemy" diplo penalty with Justinian, but I don't care.
Closed borders with Genghis to teleport my units into place. (Do you guys really care about teleport mechanics?)
Spoiler :

Checked to make sure all 4 armies were in place.
Power Graph indicated that Genghis lost a whole bunch of units up north against Justinian. :D
Justinian's power didn't drop at all, so it must have been a complete victory for him.
Now I don't have to worry about Justinian vassaling to Mongolia.
If it became a concern, I could try to buy a Cease Fire between them to reset war success back to 0.
Spoiler :

Declared War upon Genghis Khan :cool:
Instantly got -1 diplo with Rome for declaring war on his friend. (Julius was Pleased with Genghis)

Nijmegen and Utrecth instantly recaptured for 20 war success and cleared whip anger.
Food reset to 0 and Libraries destroyed.
The motherland anger in Nijmegen is because it is Size 4 and my plot culture on the city tile got reset to 0 when I gifted it away to Genghis and became 2 plot culture again when I recaptured it. (Genghis has 2 plot culture there too now).
Since the city has over 100+ city culture, it will generate +43 plot culture per turn and the motherland anger will vanish next turn as my city's nationality % zooms back up to 99% Dutch/ 1% Mongolian.
Spoiler :

Rotterdam captured for 130 :gold:!
No buildings sadly.
Lost 2 Catapults taking it.
Ning-Hsia captured for 119 :gold:!
Granary and Lighthouse survived, which annoys me because that city is going back to Mongols for Peace Treaty in a few turns.
Lost 1 Catapult and 1 Axe.
Murdered a wandering Keshik and Chariot because they threatened my Axes in Rotterdam.
I don't care if the Catapults attack, they can't kill.
Moved Main army up to the forest next to sweet, succulent Old Sarai.
Hopefully it can be captured next turn.
Spoiler :

Last edited:
Write up Part 6

*SPOILER ALERT for the Willem Map that AcaMetis provided*
Spoiler :
T123 - 200AD Continued
Spoiler :
Now I nervously wait for Genghis' counterattack.
He has a few Elephants and Keshiks down south that will likely head north.
He also has a Keshik, Elephant, and Archer that vanished north into Rome's land 2 turns ago that could turn around and come back to attack me.
Keshiks are really annoying since they ignore terrain movement cost and can go through jungles and forests without roads.
Only a jungle/forest hilltop can stop them cold.

I must not allow my bronze city or my elephant city to be captured.
I need both of them to maintain my war machine.
Signing a Peace Treaty in 2 or 3 turns for Ning-Hsia is my best bet, because I can't trade units with Genghis in a long drawn out war.
His production is just too high.
Spoiler :

Traded Currency to Justinian for 70:gold:
Not like I can trade techs with him any longer.
Spoiler :

T124 - 225AD
Spoiler :
Genghis now has Feudalism in the trade window. :(
A Keshik died in between turns attacking my forest spear.

A combat I + Shock Sword.
A combat I + Shock Axe.
Together they guard Old Sarai behind solid walls with +50% defenses.
How much damage can they do to 2 Catapults and a huge stack of 7 Axemen?
Oh God, 2 Catapults and 3 Axes died! :crazyeye:
I should have brought the War elephant, but I wanted to easily capture Ning-Hsai and then rush back to defend my bronze city.
Old Sarai captured for 117:gold:!
No buildings again, because civ 4 hates me and they all got destroyed. (Or maybe these jungles cities never had buildings? I didn't zoom in to check before conquering them)
I need to look up how much culture I need in a city to preserve all buildings 100% of the time.

Killed a roving Elephant too.
All that damage that Justinian and I did, and Genghis' power rating only moderately dipped.
What a monster!
Spoiler :

T125 - 250AD
Spoiler :
My Copper was Pillaged :(
1 Keshik died attacking my elephant city's War Elephant.
Lost 1 injured Spear to Keshik.

Genghis is not willing to talk even though I have around 86 war success and it has been 2 turns since the war started.
I guess him having war success too makes a difference in the calculation on how long before he will talk to me.

I started teching Calendar.
Rome my only trading partner already has it, but I don't have enough money to do Metal Casting.
Aesthetics would require me to have 200 beakers put into Calender as well to trade for it.
Since I have 13 Calendar resources, it is best for me to just self tech it and fix my economy.
Not worth gambling on Aesthetics since I have no back up plan for getting more gold if Rome techs it first.

I could try Spies and a city gift to Justinian and try to steal Metal Casting and Theology, but that isn't a great idea until the Genghis war is over for sure.
Spoiler :

T126 - 275AD
Spoiler :
Killed an Archer and 2 Keshiks.
Still no peace.
Great General born in my capital!
Will send him to the front to make a super medic.

Genghis is now ready to pillage my gems.

T127 - 300AD
Spoiler :
Lost 2 Axes and 1 Spear with some bad luck.
Killed 1 Longbow.
Still no peace.

Traded Elephant to Rome for Sugar, Silk, and 1gpt.

Super Medic Chariot is now on the front line.

Hmm, Rome now touches 8 of my land tiles.
I wonder how much I can beg from Julius?

The formula is Begging_Ceiling = [((Turns_Known + 50) * 2 * ((Our_Power + 100)/(Their_Power + 100)) * 3 if Land Target]

I met Julius on turn 16 and it is now turn 127.
I've known him for 111 turns.
I have no idea what his power rating is, but the demo screen says that the most powerful AI in the world has 543,000 Soldiers and I have 234,000 Soldiers.
Safest to just assume it is Rome.
So the Begging_Ceiling is equal to (111+50)*2*((234+100)/(543+100))*3 = (161)*2*(334/643)*3 = 501

Gold_Ceiling, the amount of :gold: I can beg, is half of the Begging_Ceiling if the AI isn't in Financial Trouble.
So the amount of :gold: I can be will be one less than 501/2 = 250.
So I can beg up to 249 gold.
Best to call it 245:gold: to be safe.

Or, I could beg 4/3 of 245:gold: and try for 326:science:
I've got 264/591 in Calendar, just need 327:science: to complete it. :hmm:
Better put 1 more turn of research into it just to be safe.
Once a beg fails (or succeeds), I have to hope that the 5% chance the AI forgets the beg occurs in good time so I can beg again later.

T128 - 325AD
Spoiler :
Still no peace after 5 turns of war.
My fast war really backfired! :cringe:

As near as I can tell, Genghis sent 4 Catapults north to attack Justinian instead of defend Old Sarai or harass my elephant city.
Weird AI.

Lost 2 Spears.
Killed 2 War Elephants and 1 Keshik.

I never had a beg with Rome before.
When doing the calculation, I don't have to subtract off the amount from a previous beg.

Begging for 232:science: from Julius was successful!
Calendar is mine. :mwaha:
Thanks for the free stuff!
Spoiler :

A shame Rome is twice as strong as me.
If I was twice as strong as Rome, I could have begged for 800:science:!

T129 - 350AD
Spoiler :
Quiet turn.
Genghis just isn't streaming evil units north to attack me for some reason. :dunno:
Spoiler :

T130 - 375AD
Spoiler :
Killed 1 Catapult.
If Genghis isn't going to attack me or talk peace, then I'm gonna go for a 4th city of his.
If he wants peace he can have Calendar because I don't want to give back Ning-Hsai now.

T131 - 400AD
Spoiler :
Lost 1 Elephant, but it drew a Spear out of the walled city and crippled it, so net positive.
Genghis will finally talk peace after 8 turns! :eek:
Massive war success doesn't get the AI to the talking table if they get a bunch of war success too it seems.
I expected 2 turns and it took 8 :lol:
But now, I want the war to last 1 more turn so I can capture a 4th city.

Traded Dye to Rome for 7:gold: per turn.
Genghis got a 2nd Great Spy.

T132 - 425AD
Spoiler :
Genghis got a Great General. Must have beat up on Justinian some more.

This turn was a slaughter!
2.5% odds Catapult WON
Only lost 1 Catapult the whole turn.

New Sarai captured
for 113:gold:
It has a Granary!
Killed Sword, Axe, Spear, Keshik, and 2 War Elephants this turn.
Combat odds finally went my way.

Signed a Peace Treaty with Genghis for 40:gold:
Spoiler :

Peace will let me hook up copper again and improve my border tiles without worrying about Keshiks blazing in to grab one of my 4 Workers.
I now have 9 cities compared to Genghis' 4 cities. (He has 28 population currently)

Will rebuild my Catapults for the big push to take Pyramids in 10 turns.

Will also try to get Metal Casting from Justinian by teching Aesthetics and hoping he doesn't get Calendar first.
Need to look into stealing a tech or two from Justinian later.
With only 3 cities, he should accept any of my cities as a gift city.
Spoiler :

I've now got -2 Border Tensions with Rome which lowers me to +11 total relations (Friendly)
Even a single point drop will put me back at Pleased and I can't afford a war with Rome.
Revolted to Buddhism!
Thankfully I just conquered a Buddhist city.
Spoiler :

Ok, I think I got the game won now. :smoke:
Will post highlights of the rest of the game later instead of a blow-by-blow.
I'm starting to clutter up Lain's thread.
Last edited:
The Vengeance Map remains quite interesting. :)

Write up Part 7

*SPOILER ALERT for the Willem Map that AcaMetis provided*
Spoiler :
T143 - 660AD
Spoiler :
In the 11 turns since the Peace Treaty, Genghis made peace with Justinian and everyone zoomed ahead in tech.
I really fell behind. :(
Traded Aesthetics+Calendar to Genghis for Metal Casting earlier and then I was done teching.
Spoiler :

To stay in the game, I had to turn to espionage.
Scanned my entire empire, and picked out the most useless city with the least food and renamed it Spy City.
Spread Buddhism from it and Taoism to it, then gifted it to Justinian.
It would be a safe spot in the next war with Genghis, and I could steal techs from it easily since it popped borders and had enough :culture: that I could get a decent culture espionage bonus from it for a while.
Stuffed it with 4 Spies.
Spoiler :

Then Declared War on Genghis again. (Another -1 diplo with Rome)

T144 - 680AD
Spoiler :
Crap, Genghis has Engineering! :eek:
My scout Spy just got retasked to blow up Genghis' capital's Walls in case a Castle gets built.

Captured Turfan
for 148:gold:!
There was no time to bombard down 60% defense Walls with only 3 defenders.
Turfan is a very nice future city, especially with Pyramids.

Started pouring :espionage: into Justinian for tech steals.
Spoiler :

T146 - 720AD
Spoiler :
Lost 1 of the 4 tech stealing Spies in Spy City. :(
Trading units with Genghis as he sends them north in 1's and 2's.
Will march towards his capital with my main stack as soon as the streaming counterattack stops.

All quiet on the northern front.
Spoiler :

T147 - 740AD
Spoiler :
Genghis strikes back!
A huge force of 2 War Elephants, 4 Keshiks, and a Catapult just landed in the north somehow and now my elephant city is in big trouble.
Whipping Spears everywhere and diverting my reinforcement stream north.
These Deity AI just seem to die hard.
Spoiler :

T148 - 760AD
Spoiler :
Genghis is stupid. :crazyeye:
He sent 1 stack to be a snack for my main army.

He sent his northern stack south to capture my least important city.
Since it is 6 mounted units and 1 catapult, I can easily recapture the city with Spears + Elephant blob.

There is now a 100% defenses Castle in Genghis' capital Karakorum. :cry:
The Spy is now needed to blow up Walls or I will have to take 4 or 5 turns bombarding down defenses.
Thankfully my 2nd Great General was born and I gave 4 Catapults the City Raider I + Accuracy promos to bombard down city defenses twice as hard.
Spoiler :

T150 - 800AD
Spoiler :
Genghis took two turns bombarding down a city with 20% defenses. :lol:
Attacking the northern stack didn't work well with one War Elephant taking 0 damage, so I filled up the city with War Elephants and Spears.
Let him come.
Spoiler :

T151 - 820AD
Spoiler :
Northern threat is done. :dance:
Genghis had a golden opportunity to raze my elephant city to the ground, and he threw it away.
Spoiler :

More good news.
Rome has Knights and Guilds, and the world tech leader is not Rome, but the final 2 unknown civilizations are more backwards than me!
So maybe not an unstoppable 2nd continent? :)
Spoiler :

Justinian is the only civ with Paper, but now it's time for a gamble.
I switched to Taoism!

It gives me a -40% :espionage: bonus because Taosim is in Spy City and Justinian is running Buddhism.
I also have the Tao holy city.
Without the holy city I'd only get a wimpy -25% bonus I think.

Very dangerous because now Rome is Pleased with me and he could start plotting any turn for war.
A small chance since he is just as likely to target Justinian as me, but there is still a chance.
Will have to hope the 90% no_war_probability keeps deleting me from his consideration.

3 Spies, 64% chance of success each, and 83% chance for the final Spy because Civ 4 likes to penalize having multiple spies for some reason.
Spoiler :

Last Spy better work....
Spoiler :

Machinery is mine!
And that's why Civ 4 is the best strategy game. :king:
It is the player's job to tilt the odds so heavily in their favor that all outcomes lead to victory.

In 7 more turns when Justinian finishes Engineering, I can steal that then switch back to Buddhism.
Hopefully Rome does not tech Engineering and I can do some trading, but it is doubtful.

T153 - 860AD
Spoiler :
My Spy is surprisingly still alive after reaching 50% wait bonus.
With Closed Borders and being outspent on espionage by Genghis, I figure my Spy has a 7% chance of dying each turn, but I'm too lazy to look up the actual odds right now.

Time for the greatest spy cheat of all.
Destroy Walls!
Castle is still there, but it doesn't activate again until the Wall gets rebuilt which takes 1 turn for sure.
Far too late because once a city reaches 0% defenses, adding Walls and a Castle doesn't bring a city up from 0%.
Spoiler :

Failure would have meant 4 or 5 turns bombarding down defenses and lots more units being built to defend the capital.
A huge boost for my war effort.

T154 - 880AD
Spoiler :
Took a suicide attack of 3 Catapults, but my army shrugged off the damage and healed 30% in between turns instead of 5% because of the Super Medic.
Such a nice use of the 1st Great General on normal speed.
Spoiler :

And then the inevitable.
Karakorum captured for 163:gold:!
I now have a source of Iron. :dance:
Spoiler :

Look at that, 3 settled Great Generals :eek:
My new Heroic Epic City.

With Forge, Buddhism, and Org. Religion, I can get a 50% :hammers: bonus on buildings.
Will whip Lighthouse and Granary, and store the hammers until I get the Stone under Beshbalik so I can build Maoa Statues for +1:hammers: per water tile.
Farm the elephants, windmill the riverside hilltops for more food and gold, then grow the city big and fat.
2 pop whip a Barracks, hmm need to put 1 hammer into that and store it.
Production decay does not hit buildings nearly as fast as units.

Or, maybe I should try to grow my 2nd Great Person there?

The Great Wall, Scotland Yard, Forge, and Courthouse, I could easily get a Great Engineer or more likely Great Spy. :hmm:

T157 - 940AD
Spoiler :
Stole Engineering :D
That is a 1690:science: tech for only 532:espionage:
Spoiler :

Not sure why I got the -20% trade route bonus this time and not for Machinery? :dunno:
All that means is that one of my cities picked Spy City to form a trade route.
Spoiler :

I must have been at peace with Justinian for 25 turns and built my "Sustained Peace" bonus for trade routes back up to 75% to get +2:gold: in a trade route with Spy City instead of +1:gold:.
Each turn of peace with a civ builds up +3% sustained peace for trade routes until after 50 turns of peace the full +150% sustained peace bonus is restored.

If you want to learn how to get -20% trade route bonus reliably, Elitetroops made a guide here:

Island Cities in your empire tend to reduce the odds of -20% trade route espionage bonus unless you know what you are doing.

Looks like I made peace with Justinian on T110.
Not sure why the -20% trade route espionage bonus was missing on the Machinery steal on Turn 151?
**Edit 2**
I loaded the game back up to the start of Turn 151 and the -20% bonus was there.
Where did it go?
Spoiler :
**Edit 3**
Ok, I feel really dumb because I see it now. :o
You can not get the -20% trade route espionage bonus when your civ is in Anarchy! :cry:
I revolted to Taoism to get the -40% religious bonus and forgot I'm not in a golden age.
I should have revolted to Taoism 1 turn earlier and saved myself a valuable 81:espionage:. :cringe:


Back to the game.
If my 86% chance Spy had failed, I would have sent in 3 more and waited 6 more turns and tried again.
Revolted to Buddhism to get back on Rome's Friendly side.
Instantly got out of "We Fear You are Becoming Too Advanced" and was able to trade again.

T158 - 960AD
Spoiler :
The war continues.
I need the Stone under Beshbalik, and I'm totally out of :espionage: points to spend on Genghis, so I need to smash down the Castle the hard way.
-2% per Catapult, and -4% per Accuracy promoted Catapult!
Even with a horde of them, it will still take about 4 whole turns.
Beshbalik will also give me Gold and Horses, both vital resources for me.
Spoiler :

Last edited:
Write up Part 8

Spoiler :
Turn 160 - 1000AD

A distant civ got Liberalism.

A bit slow for Deity AI.
Usually it is around 600AD I think? :think:

Turn 161 - 1010AD
Spoiler :
Crushed Genghis' final large city.
Another Scotland Yard for my spy economy.
Spoiler :

Even better, rather than march north for another brutal fight to get Genghis' average hilltop city, or march 8 turns north to get the Buddhist Holy City, I got it for free in a Peace Deal! :D
Can't help but notice Rome has 115 population and another city I can't see.
Spoiler :

Could probably get another 500:science: tech due to Spy City making me a LandTarget, but Justinian refused to trade any techs with me, so all I could get away with is a 50:gold: demand.
Spoiler :

The war with Genghis ended for now.

Now it is time for my giant stack to heal up and head north for Justinian's capital.
It has Colossus, Temple of Artemis, and some other stuff. :yumyum:

Revolted to Police State + Vassalage
(1 turn of Anarchy)
Now I get +2xp for military units and +25% military :hammers:!

T162 - 1020AD
Spoiler :
Met Darius of the Persian Empire.
He sailed across the whole ocean to meet me!
From what he is able to tech, it appeared he was the one to tech Liberalism.
I think he picked Astro as his free tech?
Traded him for Compass.
Spoiler :

T163 - 1030AD
Spoiler :
Rome completed Notre Dame.
+2 :) in all cities will really help him because AI struggle with happiness problems much more than health problems.

My Empire is spreading Buddhism everywhere for +25% building production, then 3-pop whipping Forges in cities with +6 or more :food:, then 2-pop whipping Barracks and putting the major overflow into Moai Statues on the coast now that I have stone.
Every coastal city that 2-pop whips a Barracks or otherwise generate a large overflow will generate 75 fail :gold: when the Moai Statues complete in my Heroic Epic city, Genghis' old capital Karakorum.

Also, I can't believe Genghis is willing to trade with me still.
I thought for sure he'd say I was too advanced if nothing else.
Probably traded 10 techs that he could see. Guess he forgot 3 or 4 of them since my 1st trade. :dunno:
Spoiler :

T164 - 1040AD
Spoiler :
Ugh, Rome completed Sistine's Chapel.
That means all his Buddhist Temples will produce +6:culture: and Monasteries will produce +7:culture:
Worse, if they are more than 1000 years old it will be +12:culture: and +14:culture:
Julius is really going to start pressing on my borders now.
Every time my Buddhist Shrine city revolts, I lose that +24:gold: per turn for a few turns.
Spoiler :

In more good news, it appears that the Byzantines have a whole bunch of gold in their coffers.
I need to think about how to steal it.
1:gold: costs 3:espionage: to steal, so to get any kind of good conversion rate I need roughly 3 -50% spy bonuses.
Spoiler :

T165 - 1050AD
Spoiler :
Rome completed Taj for a Golden Age!
He is taking off like a rocket.

Darius circumnavigated the world for +1:move: on his ships.

I've got vision on the capital of Byzantium.
A nice fat capital with +10:food: and 12 population.
Since the 4 pop spy city had 270:gold: to steal, that means the whole empire of 4+12=16 population must have around 1000:gold: for me to steal in the treasury.
Just need to get better spy bonuses and Justinian down to 1 city to steal the whole thing in one go. :hmm:
Spoiler :

T170 - 1100AD
Spoiler :
Ok, Drama looks very appealing even though I want some of the other techs.
Genghis and Julius don't have it.
Spoiler :

T171 - 1110AD
Spoiler :
Traded Drama to Genghis for Literature.
Now I can build Heroic Epic and National Epic in Genghis' old cities.

T172 - 1120AD
Spoiler :
Traded Drama to Rome for 230:gold: and his map.
But what is this!?

Julius refused the when I asked for 230:gold: for Drama directly.
But when I set down Drama by itself and asked "what would make this deal work?", he immediately offered the 230:gold: plus the map?

This is that famous bug I've been hearing about in action.
Spoiler :

T173 - 1130AD
Spoiler :
My main army is ready to rock Justinian's capital, but I want to gift him 3 cities to clear anger before the DOW.
And I just remembered that 2 of them have a lot of fail gold built up in Moai Statues. :cringe:
Ok, the invasion gets delayed until T175!
Spoiler :

T175 - 1150AD
Spoiler :
Arg, another error.
The fail gold only generates in cities farther in the city order list after the wonder completes.
So Karakorum completed Moai, Beshbalik generated fail gold from failing to complete the wonder, Thessalonica did not much, and then my turn was over.
I need to wait until Turn 176 for ALL THE REST of my cities to give me fail gold for failing to complete Moai.
Delay the war 1 more turn. :mad:
Spoiler :

T176 - 1160AD
Spoiler :
Rome, the world's Super Power at this point, offered a Defense Pact since he has Military Tradition now, but I declined.
It would vanish anyway as soon as I DOW'd Justinian.
The long awaited fail gold waterfall will help turn around my teching fortunes allowing my :espionage: stealing.
Spoiler :

Gave away 3 cities to clear major anger problems and DOW'd Justinian.
Took all 3 cities back right away with Horse Archers.
Spoiler :

Disaster! :eek:
Spoiler :

Ok, so when I gave away Elephant City, not only did it clear my plot culture off my city tile, but it cleared away my plot culture in the surrounding 9 tiles.
My city will put (3+1+40 = +44) plot culture on my inner ring going forward, but both Genghis and especially Rome have a lot more plot culture than that on my inner ring already.
I need to get to +500:culture: right away and start putting +70 plot culture on my inner ring as fast as possible.
I've cripped Elephant city for at least 20 turns by being too smart/cute with city gifting to clear anger. :cry:
Don't do it with contested border cities. :lol:

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Write up Part 9

Spoiler :
T178 - 1180AD
Spoiler :
Justinian's capital is in major trouble. :D
Spoiler :

Still annoyed about Elephant City.
The inner ring of 9 tiles definitely lost all Plot Culture.
I have more % control in my 2nd ring right now than the 1st.
Spoiler :

T179 - 1190AD
Spoiler :
Stole Guilds from Justinian.
Now I can build Knights. :)

My City Culture :espionage: bonus has withered to -13% as Justinian has filled the City Culture far past the 13:culture: I put into the city before giving it away.
Still getting a decent ratio of :espionage: to :science: though.
Spoiler :

T180 - 1200AD
Spoiler :
Traded Guilds and 95:gold: to Genghis for Civil Service.
Genghis continues to be a treasure mine even after 2 wars.

T182 - 1220AD
Spoiler :
Constantinople captured!
And it is a JACKPOT :bounce:
4 Great Generals, 2 Great Prophets, and 1 Great Merchants are all settled in the city.
Lost 2 Trebuchets and 4 Catapults, but it was totally worth it.
Spoiler :

Representation is really starting to look appealing over Police State, but every gold I spend on Science instead of Espionage is a waste as long as I can still steal and trade techs.

My 3rd Great General was born.
Sent to Karakorum my Heroic Epic City as a 4th Great General.
Now I have 2 major cities with 4 settled Great Generals. :banana:

Justinian was willing to Vassal to me, but I still liked my Friendly relationship with Rome which instantly vanishes once I acquire a vassal unless Rome is Friendly to Justinian.
Plus, there is a tiny chance I could force the world's tech leader Persia into Friendly with a Buddhist flip, so even -1 diplo for having a vassal might be annoying.
I also want Spy City back.

Banking was a bit to much, so I signed Peace with Justinian for Music.
Spoiler :

T183 - 1230AD
Spoiler :
Rome got a Great Artist. Boo

Stole Banking
from Justinian.
Now I can do Mercantilism for +1 specialist in each city.
The Courthouses I built will get some use soon running a Spy specialist.
Spoiler :

T184 - 1240AD
Spoiler :
Rome adopted Emancipation.
All the non-Roman cities in the whole world just got +1:mad:.
Nasty civic.

I'm starting to scout Rome to see what kind of odds I would get in an invasion.
Found the main stack near my border.
Always be aware of a Deity AI's main stack at all times if you want to have good success in a war against them. :cowboy:
Spoiler :

T185 - 1250AD
Spoiler :
Rome is spectacular in both land and military.
It will take quite a buildup to have a profitable war against Julius. :sad:
Even if I kill the main stack on Turn 0 of the war, he can rapidly rebuild a 2nd stack with his 11 cities and throw it somewhere before I can talk terms.
Spoiler :

Got Optics and Theology from Genghis for Banking and Music.
Time to send Caravels to contact the last 2 mystery civs in the world. :D
Spoiler :

Justinian and Genghis are down to Paper, so their continued usefulness to me is rapidly vanishing.
I can't draft their former cities until I get above 20% culture and Motherland anger is always annoying.

They will need to be terminated soon.

Damn Rome!
T186 - 1260AD
Spoiler :
Julius has screwed me. :mad:
Constantinople is facing border pressure from a city that exceeded 5000:culture: and popped borders 4 times!
Spoiler :
Lower Estimate of Plot Culture per Turn.
Add Adrianople's +:culture: per turn to each of the +Plot Culture per turn to get a better estimate. (+15:culture: per turn on every tile?)

That means my super city is only going to be able to work a few tiles.
Need to get Constantinople to 100:culture: fast so I can start taking back tiles to the west and south of my city.

How can little Adrianople have more culture than giant Neapolis?
Julius must have used a Great Artist to culture bomb Adrianople.
I hate this game.

National Epic is done in Turfan.

Running 5 specialists to get a Golden Age on T190.

T188 - 1280AD
Spoiler :
Heroic Epic online in Karakorum.
This city will crank out City Raider III Seige units for the rest of the game. :crazyeye:
Spoiler :

Time to take out the trash.
DOW'd Genghis for the final time.
Motherland anger and War weariness biting hard in the former Mongol cities, but it won't last long.
Spoiler :

T189 - 1290AD
Spoiler :
Wow, Genghis actually fought back a little.
A quick Chariot to Constantinople from Thessalonica and even if Genghis wins 2 out of 2 battles it won't be enough.
Spoiler :

T190 - 1300AD
Spoiler :
Thracian captured with 1 Trebuchet loss!
Genghis has been destroyed.
Spoiler :
Well played Mr. Khan. You fought very well. :salute:

Great Merchant born.
Started a Golden Age.
Revolted to Representation, Bureaucracy, Mecantilism, and Pacifism.
20 turns of great trade routes for Persia to me just ended :lol:

Running Great People farms in Turfan and Karakorum to birth Great People #3, #4, and #5 in the next 9 turns.

T191 - 1310AD
Spoiler :
Damn Rome!

Can a very valuable city revolt for 5 more turns the instant it comes out of a 9 turn revolt?
YES, it CAN!!! :cry:
Spoiler :

Need to start garrisoning my 3 troubled cities seriously.

T192 - 1320AD
Spoiler :
Oh ya, been waiting for this.

My solution to grab that vast 1000:gold: treasury is to switch religions to get the -40% bonus and gift a 2nd Spy City to get the -50% City Culture bonus for 1 turn.

Gifted away Ning-Hsai to Justinian.
Revolted to Taoism.
Hopefully Rome won't plot war against me in the next 5 turns while I am at Pleased with him.

Note that I can only steal 4/7th's of Justinian's Treasury because he has 2 cities with 4 and 3 population.
Spoiler :

DOW'd Justinian.
Recaptured Spy City that I gift him a long time ago.
Stole 1366:gold: from Byzantium. :eek: :dance:
Stole Paper!

Recaptured Ning-Hsai.
Byzantium has been destroyed. :salute:

Spoiler :

Seeing Justinian and Julius duke it out was great.
I just gobbled up some extra profits since Julius didn't vassal Justinian.

Rome now has my full, undivided attention dun dun dun :mwaha:

1686:gold: can buy a lot of :espionage: points
A shame Persia is on a different continent or I'd try to rob them with a gift city too.
If I crush Persia down from 5 cities to 3 they would take a gift city on my continent, but I'd need Astronomy to make that happen.

Being a parasite and psychotic bully is a lot of fun!
I haven't researched a tech for myself since 64 turns ago back on Turn 128. :nya:

Continued in Part 10
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Spoiler :

I've asked this on the forums before, but if Justinian isn't the best AI, who is? Where is the official HoF players ranking for AI? :D

There is debate about this of course, but amateur and exhaustive AI vs. AI testing indicates that Justinian of Byzantium and Zara Yacob of Ethiopia are the two AI most likely to win the game if left to their own devices.
Sulla's delightful AI tournament.

A truly exhaustive and amazing effort was conducted Keler by in the past. :love:
b) OVERALL Result
Sum of points obtained by each leader in each tournament.Basically this information is the same as the overall result given in tournament 60 with added average information.

Overall Ranking Leaders Overall Points
1 Justinian I 1221,95
2 Zara Yaqob 1116,41
3 Gilgamesh 997,27
4 Catherina 987,37
5 Suleiman 961,88
6 Willem van Oranje 931,06
7 Pericles 914,92
8 Pacal II 914,51
9 Saladin 856,98
10 Mansa Musa 850,48
11 Huayna Capac 825,76
12 Qin Shi Huang 823,06
13 Joao II 809,17
14 Hannibal 798,17
15 Cyrus 798,06
16 Kublai Khan 754,44
17 Asoka 745,52
18 Ramesses II 707,50
19 Peter 706,66
20 Julius Caesar 702,48
21 Suryavarman II 700,49
22 Churchill 670,81
23 Charlemagne 629,41
24 Gandhi 625,94
"" AVERAGE 618,90
25 Augustus Caesar 601,88
26 Louis XIV 577,37
27 Hatshepsut 563,07
28 Bismarck 559,13
29 Boudica 546,86
30 Victoria 534,58
31 Wang Kon 523,26
32 Isabella 510,27
33 Mao Zedong 508,08
34 Hammurabi 500,58
35 Brennus 462,09
36 Darius I 456,04
37 Washington 449,15
38 De Gaulle 447,91
39 Elizabeth 440,72
40 Roosevelt 430,72
41 Ragnar 409,84
42 Mehmed II 409,24
43 Lincoln 402,01
44 Frederick 361,17
45 Genghis Khan 360,36
46 Sitting Bull 335,87
47 Stalin 319,55
48 Alexander 313,45
49 Napoleon 301,86
50 Shaka 279,63
51 Tokugawa 269,45
52 Montezuma 258,41

Here,overall ranking average may not reflect well with their points average. Therefore I adjusted and put traits in overall result.

The AI vs. AI idea was also explored here.

A mod here.


Spoiler :
Very nice write up. I think with your level of game knowledge you can beat this map. Nxt lvl civ 4 magic here with your neat trick of gifting and retaking cities to reset whip anger and create war success. I did learn a lot, but how for example you know that JC can not choose you as a land target to attack if you only have 7 shared border tiles? Where can you find this kind of information?

I learned some new things:thumbsup:Thanks for that. Always nice to learn some more complex mechanics of Civ4 from expierenced players. Now i am looking forward to the outcome of your war. If you should be succesful, i think your position will be pretty decent.

Here you go, Land Target guide :)

Don't take the begging guide farther down too seriously.
It was never completed.
Combat odds are sadly not accurate,
most of us have experience with that and need no further proof (even if there have been plenty doubters before ;)),
but you can actually proof that very easily.

When i set up combats with injured units fighting each other in a test game,
the stronger one might be shown as 90+% winning odds, gets beaten,
and combat log might tell you the weaker unit has won 3 rounds vs 1.
Ofc we all know that 1:3 does not reflect 10% or lower chances in real life,
more like ~25%.

So overall, those combat rounds are really messy.
If every round stands for a coin flip, you can actually lose 100% battles too (and have seen it happening).
While odds like 99.5% are nonsense imo, would need maaany more rounds to reach such fractals.

The odds do seem a bit off sometimes.
I've only really noticed it playing Quechuas.
I had a 6.36% chance to do no-damage to an Archer.
I did no damage to that Archer 3 times in a row! :cry:
That is like 0.02% chance of happening.
Spoiler :

Not sure a 1 in 5000 event proves anything though. :hmm:

Each combat round is not a 50%/50% coin flip.
The stronger unit gets a weighted advantage to more often win each combat round. (65%/35%) or (80%/20%), etc.
They also tend to do more hp damage when they win each round unless they are fighting a unit more than twice their base :strength:

The combat mechanics are explained here by Arathorn:
A really nice way to finally understand what First Strike promotions do too. :)
The basics

You don't even really need to understand this. You can get this by alt-mouseover or by right-click and dragging to the unit and checking the odds displayed in the lower left corner of the screen. This explains how those numbers are calculated.

[Comment by Kaitzilla - He means click on your unit (i.e. the human player's Axeman), hover the mouse pointer over an enemy unit, then press ALT to see modified strength]

Attacker's modified strength

This is calculated first. Apply any bonuses the attacker gets independent of the defender (generic strength promotions only in the default game). Multiply this total by the unit's hps/100. This gives the attacker's modified strength.

Example: A swordsman with Combat I, City Raider I, and only 73 hps is lining up to attack a city. His modified strength is 6 * 1.1 (from Combat I) * 73/100 (from hps) = 4.82 (well, 4.818 actually, but I don't know if Civ4 keeps more than 2 digits of accuracy).

Defender's modified strength

This one is more complicated. Determine the defender's bonuses from terrain, general strength bonuses, bonuses vs. the type of the attacking unit, fortification bonuses, etc. Sum those up. Now, subtract any bonuses the attacker might have if it attacks this unit. Those would include attacker bonuses against defender combat type, attacker bonuses against a city, attacker bonuses in the terrain type (?). If the overall value is positive, add that percentage to the defender to get its modified strength. If the overall value is negative, the defender's modified strength is found by taking the original defender's strength divided by (1-overall_value). [Note: That's the same as dividing by (1+abs(overall_value)) when overall_value is negative, which is how I think of it.]

Once this value is calculated, the defender's hps become an issue. This is again a straight multiplication by the number of hps remaining times the modified strength found above.

Example #1: (Both healthy) An archer (str:3) with City Raider I and Combat I promotions is attacking a warrior (str:2) on grassland. The attacker's modified strength is calculated by simply taking the combat I promotion and getting a value of 3.3 (3 + 3*.1). The defender has no strength bonuses and the grassland defense bonus is 0, so the defender has a modified strength of 2.

Example #2: (Both healthy) A knight (str:10) with Combat I and Cover (+25% vs. archers) promotions is attacking a longbow (str:6) in a forest. The attacker's modified strength is again simple, using the Combat I promotion of 10%. The knight's attack value is 11 (10 + .1*10). The longbow has an initial bonus of +50% for the forest. However, the knight's Cover bonus now affects the defending longbow, giving it a -25%, too. So, the overall bonus for the longbow is +25%. The defender's modified strength is 7.5 (6 + .25*6).

Example #3: A knight (str:10) with Combat I, Combat II, and City Raider I (+20% attacking a city) but only 73 hps is attacking an axeman (str:5) in a town with a 3% defensive bonus from culture. The attacker's modified strength is 8.76 (10 + .2*10)*76/100 from the two Combat promotions and the hps. The defender first calculates a +3% defensive strength from the city. Then the attacker's bonus is kicked in. This gives a -20% to the defender. Thus, the overall value is -17%. The defender's modified strength is 4.27 (5 / (1+.17) = 5 / 1.17)).

The actual combat

We now have the attacker and the defender's modified strengths. We will call these A and D going forward to help the discussion. If a bit of algebra scares you, just jump ahead to repercussions....

Round odds

The odds that the attacker will win each round is given by A/(A+D), so the odds the defender wins a round is D/(A+D).
So a 4:strength: Spearman vs. a 40:strength: Modern Armor only has 9.1% chance each round to inflict damage.
When it does inflict damage, it hurts the Modern Armor for 8 out of 100 hp.

The Modern Armor has a 90.9% chance each round to inflict damage.
When it does inflict damage, it hurts the Spearman for 47 out of 100hp.
I think that's right. :hmm:

Ok, here is a quick test.
Spoiler :

I lost 10 Spearman in a row without inflicting any damage at all.
That is 30 straight rounds of combat lost.
I should have a 9.1% chance of inflicting damage each round!

Then Spearman #11 inflicted 2 rounds of damage against the Modern Armor before dying.
2 successes out of 35 rounds of combat is 5.7% odds of inflicting damage each round.
I need a lot more testing to even get close to being accurate on this (10,000 rounds of combat?), but I'm too lazy to do it.

Anyway, if the Modern Armor had 3 First Strikes, it would not have taken any damage at all being immune to damage the first 3 combat rounds.


All that good Arathorn info was for Civ Vanilla I think back in 2005. :hmm:
Changes were made in Beyond the Sword here:
As far as I know, there is only 1 tiny change in the game compared to the information stored in the article from Arathorn.

The chance to hit is still calculated from the strength values that are visible when you ALT-mouseover an enemy unit. The damage per hit is now however calculated by averaging the maximum strength value of a unit and the damaged strength value. 1 tiny change (which can have significant consequences on combat) doesn't devalue the article. It just needs this one line addendum, that's all.
Extremely injured 0.1/?? units now inflict half the hp damage that they would at full health instead of microscopic damage.
Not sure how much difference that made since the minimum damage a unit can inflict was capped at 6hp on the low end and 60hp on the high end? :hmm:
Probably to give 50% hp units more punching power than they were getting.

A thread popped up a while back talking about the Combat Odds being off.

The game's Random Number Generator was tested here:

If anyone wants to write a new Strategy Article for Beyond the Sword 3.19, that would be greatly appreciated!
I always suspect those combat odds myself deep down.
There are real limits to how far Catapults and Trebuchets can perform against Castle cities with +125% defenses.

Collateral Damage only goes up to 50% max of the defenders hp for Catapults and Trebuchets.
The player can get enemy units down to half hp if their Cata/Treb has the same base :strength: or more than the defender's base strength:strength:

To illustrate this, here are some nice looking Collateral Damage Tables:
Spoiler :

The most collateral damage Catapults can do to Longbows is get them down to 3.3/6 hp.
The most collateral damage Trebuchets can do to Longbows is get them down to 3.6/6hp
Neither can hit Longbows with max 50% collateral damage, because Longbows have a higher base strength(6:strength:) than Catapults(5:strength:) or Trebuchets(4:strength:)
Cannons with a base strength of 12:strength: and a max collateral damage of 60% hp can get Longbows down to 2.4/6 hp, far superior to the Trebuchet which hits its limit at 3.6/6hp.

That is why people so often spend 60:gold: to upgrade their Trebuchets to Cannons.

Units with identical base :strength: such as Longbows, Swordsmen, and Crossbows (6:strength:) receive the same amount of collateral damage.
There is no need to include every unit in Civ 4 to construct good tables.

The Chinese unique unit Cho-ku-nu (6:strength:) has a strength of 3:strength: when calculating Collateral Damage which makes for really pathetic collateral damage, but they can do it from the sea amphibiously off a transport which regular siege can't do.
They can also get Guerilla III for 50% withdrawal, so they can retreat and still inflict collateral damage. :lol:

All the Barrage promotion does is cause the Siege to do more collateral damage racing to the limit faster.
Compare the Catapult with Catapult having Barrage I and Barrage II promotions.
Spoiler :

City Raider is almost always better than Barrage due to survivability unless attacking an enemy stack outside a city.

Barrage Catapults are for when the enemy has a huge stack outside your city and you need to soften them up so your Horse Units have much better odds to successfully perform flanking attacks and destroy enemy Siege units.
A few Barrage II and Barrage III Catapults also shine when suicide attacking a city with lots of promoted units and +100% defenses.
The trebuchet attack will also be suicide just like the Catapults, but the Barrage Catapults will do more overall damage once you factor in their costs of 50:hammers: vs. 80:hammers:

In case anyone was wondering, injured 0.1hp Catapults inflict FULL collateral damage. :D
It also does so against up to 6 other units in the stack with the defender.

Defense modifiers like +150% to defense do not affect Collateral Damage in any way.
Only the Base Strength of the attacking Siege Unit and the Base Strength of the defending unit matters when calculating Collateral Damage.


Now some people complain that they only hit 2 or 3 other units with collateral damage and not the full 6 with the Catapult or the full 7 with the Cannon. :gripe:
That is because of 2 reasons.

First, if the defender has Siege Units like Catapults, Trebs, or Machine Guns, they are immune to collateral damage and will absolutely soak up Collateral Damage hits.
Put 8 defenders in a stack of 60 Catapults, and you will see only 1 Collateral Damage inflicted occasionally.
Spoiler :
5 Cannon attacks later, finally 1 Collateral Damage!

2nd, injured units below the Collateral Damage threshold will also soak up Collateral Damage hits and make them vanish.
But not as often as you'd imagine.
This seems right.
Spoiler :

This seems weird.
24 injured units and 8 healthy units.
Spoiler :

A cannon doing Collateral Damage to a stack of 32 with 24 critically injured units would be expected to hit the 7 healthy units with Collateral Damage 22.5% of the time.
Instead it occurs 78.6% of the time
! :eek:

I thought this might be a mistake, so I made a new stack of 8 healthy Rifleman and 64 critically injured Rifleman.
Surely I might get collateral damage to 1 healthy Rifleman each Cannon attack.
Guess how many I got?
4 or 5!
Spoiler :

So a few very injured units will also soak up Collateral Damage hits, but only 1.
If there are a huge amount of injured units, they will soak up 2 Collateral Damage hits or maybe even 3, but not more.

Hopefully this clears up siege warfare confusion a bit for some people.
Ok, all the information posts and game posts are now brought over from the other thread. (comment posts were left in the Lain thread)

I've written a lot about :espionage: in the guide section, so check it if you want to know more about intelligence gathering and spies and espionage economy in Civ 4.

Also, it looks like Lain has now played the Willem map. :D
Wonder how he did?
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Write up Part 10

Continued from part 9
Spoiler :
Turn 192 - 1320AD Continued
Spoiler :
Now that Justinian is dead, all that is left on my continent is Julius.

He is the strongest AI in the world. :hug:
Rome is also my best way to continue stealing techs since he is the only AI that will take a gift city from me.

There are 2 ways for AIs to take gift cities.
If an AI has 3 cities or less, they will take a gift city under all conditions. :love:

2) If an AI has more than 3 cities, they have a few conditions before they will take a gift city.
The gift city must be on the same land mass that the AI already has a city on.
The gift city must be within 9.5 tiles or less of an AI city.
The receiving AI must not be in financial trouble. (Crudely speaking, if the AI gold slider is above 60%, or above 70% when plotting war, then the AI is probably in 'financial trouble' status)

**Note that once an AI has owned a city once, they will always take it as a gift in the future.
**Note that cities gifted away to the AI can never revolt back to the player through culture pressure unless "city flipping after conquest" option is enabled before the start of the game.
**Note that a city gifted to the AI keeps the player's city culture, but the plot culture on the city tile and the surrounding 8 tiles all gets erased.

Ning-Hsai remains my best way to steal from Rome.
Once I give it to him, I can rob him blind with excellent :espionage: cost modifiers.
Nationalism especially interests me because I can run Nationhood for drafting, +25% :espionage:, and do the civic change before golden age ends.
Spoiler :

After Nationalism, I will want to steal Representation so that I can build Jails for +50% :espionage:
Rome will be harder than usual to pester with Spies since he can build Intelligence Agencies due to Democracy.
Intelligence Agencies increase espionage mission costs by +50%, increase the odds that my spies will be caught in those cities, and lower mission success odds.
As long as I only steal from the gifted Ning-Hsai, the little runt 1 pop city should never be able to build an Intelligence Agency.
Then again, perhaps Rome could afford to rush buy one using :gold: to screw me over. :hmm:

Turn 193 - 1330AD
Spoiler :
Persia has a fat capital.
Need to steal Astronomy from him somehow if I want to plunder him. :hmm:
Darius loves Free Religion and has Liberalism, so I don't have to worry about him running a religion.
Spoiler :

Most competitive SGOTM teams make a habit of going straight for Astro in any games with water.
Galleons are very powerful moving units across the map in 1 turn using chaining.
In fact, I would consider "Chaining" to be among the most powerful mechanic in civ 4 since it can top even railroads for troop movements.
Spoiler :

I remain in danger from Julius as long as I run Taoism and remain Pleased, but it is an acceptable risk.
Julius is willing to DOW Persia which means he is Annoyed with them, but I can't afford it.
Spoiler :

Would have to be insane to start an AI vs. AI war with Rome having no way to reach Persia. (Rome does not have Astronomy)
Julius would stockpile troops endlessly which is something I don't want to see.

If I can reach a critical mass of troops and lure Rome's main stack of doom to within striking distance, I can start a profitable war with him.
Just have to get there before Julius techs Rifling.

Turn 194 - 1340AD
Spoiler :
Great Artist born as my 3rd great person. :undecide: 2% chance?
I'll use it on the Byzantium capital that keeps revolting and starving.
A culture bomb to counteract Rome's culture bomb! :lol:
Spoiler :

Met Suryavarman!
Met Shaka!

Looks like Shaka is the master of Suryavarman and has over 140 population since he will trade me +14:gold: per turn. :crazyeye:
Spoiler :

Gave Shaka +10:gold: to get him to Pleased.
When the Player first meets an AI, it is possible to give away 10:gold: to get +4 fair trade relations. (and -4 traded with worst enemies with any AI that is 'Worst Enemy' of the AI who got the gift)
As the turns go by and the new AI and player know each other for more and more turns, the +4 bonus gradually shrinks down to +1 and eventually vanishes.
It takes more and more gold and techs and even gifted cities to maintain +4 fair trade relations as the game goes on.
Traded for Shaka's World Map.
Spoiler :

Persia has some nice cities!
Darius has 7 cities and 80 population. (or a bit more if he has a city that Shaka's map does not know about)
Spoiler :

Shaka and Suryavarman have a whole continent to themselves.
Surya has 7 cities and 53 population.
Shaka has 12 cities and 140 population.
(+14:gold: per turn in trade screen ya :thumbsup:)
Definitely a target for subsidized trading once I get Astronomy some day.
Spoiler :
Surya has a 3pop city north of Jayendranagari

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Write up Part 11

Spoiler :
Turn 194 - 1340AD Continued
Spoiler :
What, you lurkers want more detail? :p

Ok, Shaka's capital Ulundi.
What buildings does it have?

Press the "Toggle Bare Map" button and zoom in to get a good look at the AI city.
Then press F12 and open up the Civlopedia and go to the buildings and wonders list.
Start matching up buildings and wonders by spinning the animation of the building around in the Civlopedia (click with mouse, hold down, and move) until it matches what you are seeing.
Spoiler :

Using these methods, I counted 16 buildings in Ulundi.
Spoiler :

Some buildings are really small though, so sometimes it is best to use Satellite View (Alt+F) to see short fat buildings.
Using satellite view, I found a 17th building, a Stable.
Spoiler :

Keep in mind there are graphic limitations based on City Size, but I'm not sure exactly what they are. :(
A Size 1 city can graphically show up to 8 buildings.
A Size 8 city can graphically show up to 17 buildings.

Any additional buildings are still there in the city, they just can't be seen if the city is too small.

Turn 195 - 1350AD
Spoiler :
Moving some armies around to try and reduce revolt chances down towards 0%.
I really don't want Constantinople or my Buddhist shrine city to revolt again, but until the plot culture on my city tile reaches 50% it will be a fact of life without a strong garrison.
Spoiler :

I've realized after talking to Anysense that the Hindu AP is in play right now and that Darius has it.
All Darius has to do is spread Hinduism to me and Rome to unlock the diplomatic victory and then get someone to +8 Pleased to vote for him.
Darius is running Free Religion so AP victory isn't an urgent issue right now since his relations with everyone is not great.
Crazy how his capital has 10 Wonders, and his 2nd city has 3 religious shrines and The Great Lighthouse! :eek:
Spoiler :

T196 - 1360AD
Spoiler :
Nooo, Thessalonica revolted! :cry:
My +25:gold: per turn, gone for 3 turns.
Worse, I won't be adding any plot culture for 3 turns, so 48% will slip down to 45% ish.
I need to get those Justinian cities to stop revolting so I can reach 50% city tile plot culture and free up my armies!
Spoiler :

T197 - 1370AD
Spoiler :
Rome completed Statue of Liberty for +1 specialists for all 11 cities.
I now have enough :espionage: in him to get a peek at all his cities and the surrounding 8 tiles or the whole big fat cross for cities on hills.
Spoiler :

Julius has more than enough Longbows, Praetorians, Macemen, and Horse units to cause me problems if he gets Rifling.
He just started Replaceable Parts so there is a decent chance Rifling could be his next tech.
Upgrading all his units only costs 10% of the gold:gold: I would pay, so Rome's entire army could get upgraded to Rifles and Calvary in 1 turn.
Rome's :espionage: and especially :culture: production are simply awe inspiring.
Spoiler :

Whatever, time to rob Julius blind!
I got 2400:espionage: accumulated against Rome and a perfect Spy City to give him.
It's thieving time.

Gifted Rome Ning-Hsia. (Ning had 188:culture: so the culture espionage bonus should last a lot longer than the previous spy city)
Stole Nationalism!
Stole Military Tradition!
Stole Gunpowder!

Now I can build 12:strength:Cuirassiers :smoke:

Note that I got no -20% trade route bonus because I'm running Mercantilism which only allows domestic trade routes.
Switch out of Mercantilism anyway before I spent 2000:espionage:?
No way, Rome is running Mercantilism too! :lol:

Note that I also got no price discount for stealing Gunpowder even though I researched half of it. :sad:
Spoiler :

This is the final turn of Golden Age, so I need to think about what civics and religions to adopt.
Keep Taoism for -40% religion :espionage: bonus?
Or switch to Buddhism for -25% religion :espionage: bonus and get Friendly with Rome?
Hmm, stealing techs would cost me 25% more :espionage: points with Buddhism, but I would be totally safe from Julius.
I'll gamble some more! :satan:
2 more Great People will be born soon.
I can just switch to Buddhism again during a 2nd Golden Age after I've gotten most of the techs I need from Rome.
Or just eat the 1 turn of Anarchy.

Police State for +25% military :hammers:?
I kind of like the +3 :) that Representation is giving me in 5 cities for heavier drafting.
The free +124:science: per turn is nice too.
Most of my population is gonna be whipped for buildings like Jails in the short term.

Switched to Nationhood + Organized Religion for cheaper Jails in the future.
Drafted 3 muskets.
Going to do that every 10 turns because I LOVE drafting so much.
Spoiler :

Darius has an island city very close to my capital now.
No way it has an expensive Security Bureau.
I'm gonna spread my religion there and try to steal Astronomy.
It will cost a lot without an espionage :culture: bonus, but I have a nice (78% Cost) bonus since I've produced twice as much total espionage as Darius.
Spoiler :

Continued in Part 12
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They do show up for me after waiting a bit.
Regarding galleon chaining, yes it's impressive to move units instantly, the price you pay for this speed is capacity. And if you only benefit from and count the unit movements in one direciton, you can sustinable only move 2 units per turn per chain.
The capacity of any individual galleon is still only to move 4 units 4 tiles per turn.

I do think the mechanic is interesting, but I have yet to see any powerful use of it in my own games. What units are you usually moving with this method? Spies/corpex/missionaries?
If this method is used to ship an invasion force, I must miss some detail, because I see no clear benefit of chaining compared to shipping in bulk.
For siphoning in reinforcements after the initial landing I do see the point though.
I agree that for the initial attack chaining is not that useful, so mostly the use for me is reinforcements. Say you have a galleon chain ready to move across 15 tile ocean. Assuming circumnavigation bonus they move 5 tiles per turn, so you need 6 galleons. 6 galleons could ship 18 units (galleon cargo space is 3) directly in 3 turns, while for a chain it takes 6 turns. But for reinforcements a steady stream of 3 units per turn is preferable to having units wait in the mainland while galleons sail back and forth.
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