The African Origin of Ancient Egyptian Civilization

[Mentuhotep23]

Eh.. the Egyptians, Nubians, Phoenicians and Mesopotamians conceptualized the color black meaning life and white meaning death. I don't see why the dead would be Black.

Black symbolized spiritual renewal in the afterlife. Take thus statue of Tut for example.

 

[Yes]

Black symbolized spiritual renewal in the afterlife. Take thus statue of Tut for example.

Black exemplified fertility and prosperity.

 

[Lord Baal]

I hereby vote that everyone posting in this thread recently not named Lord Baal, Zardnaar, Plotinus or Cynolvans be banned and this thread closed. Permanently. It's positively ridiculous. A den of flaming, trolling, racism and poor argumentation.

 

[Plotinus]

As indicated on the last page, I did close it and re-open it on sufferance, so I'm keeping an eye on it. Any re-occurrence of the first three things you mention will see it closed. As for the last, unfortunately I have no jurisdiction over that.

 

[Mentuhotep23]

Black exemplified fertility and prosperity.

That too. It had different meanings.

Anyway where are we at in this discussion now?

I think we've covered the topic of artwork. What about the biological affinities of Lower Egyptians. Are you still claiming that they had a strong biological relationship with the Near East?

 

[Lord Baal]

As indicated on the last page, I did close it and re-open it on sufferance, so I'm keeping an eye on it. Any re-occurrence of the first three things you mention will see it closed. As for the last, unfortunately I have no jurisdiction over that.

Yeah, sorry, I managed to skip a page somehow when I was reading. And damn, I wish poor argumentation were against the rules, though I'd likely be banned myself when I'm too busy to bother with links.

 

[Yes]

I hereby vote that everyone posting in this thread recently not named Lord Baal, Zardnaar, Plotinus or Cynolvans be banned and this thread closed. Permanently. It's positively ridiculous. A den of flaming, trolling, racism and poor argumentation.

If you'd kindly point out where myself or Mentuhotep resorted to racism that'd be much obliged.

Also, Mentu, yes I assert Lower Egypt has strong cultural and biological affinities. The location, culture and craniometric data is just too strong not to I think.

 

[Mentuhotep23]

Also, Mentu, yes I assert Lower Egypt has strong cultural and biological affinities. The location, culture and craniometric data is just too strong not to I think.

The location makes such an assertion plausible but I think an objective reading of Kemp and Keita establishes that the ancient Lower Egyptians did not have strong biological affinities to the Levant.

The craniometric data indicates a population distinct from Upper Egypt but still within the range of Saharo-tropical variation. The limb ratio data indicates that the ancestors of these people resided within the tropics for a long period of time prior to settlement in the Delta region.

 

[Yes]

The location makes such an assertion plausible but I think an objective reading of Kemp and Keita establishes that the ancient Lower Egyptians did not have strong biological affinities to the Levant.

The craniometric data indicates a population distinct from Upper Egypt but still within the range of Saharo-tropical variation. The limb ratio data indicates that the ancestors of these people resided within the tropics for a long period of time prior to settlement in the Delta region.

I don't know it just doesn't add up to me you know? They say they came from the Tropics, okay but they're nothing like the Badarians of the South. I think it was a mixture of Africans and Semites. The artifacts of Lower Egypt look very Mesopatamian, the techniques for agriculture was nothing like that developed in Ethiopia and Upper Egypt, it was carried over from the Middle East. I still assert it was mixed since the Predynastic. I think we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Mentuhotep23]

I don't know it just doesn't add up to me you know? They say they came from the Tropics, okay but they're nothing like the Badarians of the South. I think it was a mixture of Africans and Semites. The artifacts of Lower Egypt look very Mesopatamian, the techniques for agriculture was nothing like that developed in Ethiopia and Upper Egypt, it was carried over from the Middle East. I still assert it was mixed since the Predynastic. I think we will just have to agree to disagree.

It's possible for a population to adopt techniques from another region without having strong affinities to those people. You don't have to accept the research of Keita and Kemp but at the very least you should acknowledge that their research simply doesn't support your theories because an objective reading of their data indicates just that.

I will try to get a hold of Keita again some time to ask him about Ancient Lower Egyptians but from his literature it appears that he sees Lower Egypt as divergent from Upper Egypt but an equally biologically indigenous population and that modern Lower Egypt is not representative of the original population.

Anyone who feels differently feel free to weigh in with quotes from these scholars or others.

 

[Yes]

It's possible for a population to adopt techniques from another region without having strong affinities to those people. You don't have to accept the research of Keita and Kemp but at the very least you should acknowledge that their research simply doesn't support your theories because an objective reading of their data indicates just that.

I will try to get a hold of Keita again some time to ask him about Ancient Lower Egyptians but from his literature it appears that he sees Lower Egypt as divergent from Upper Egypt but an equally biologically indigenous population and that modern Lower Egypt is not representative of the original population.

Anyone who feels differently feel free to weigh in with quotes from these scholars or others.

I saw a quote from Keita saying he agreed with the line, "Egyptians are Egyptians."

 

[Mentuhotep23]

I saw a quote from Keita saying he agreed with the line, "Egyptians are Egyptians."

Can you provide a source for that quote?

That's a rather simplistic statement. In the video I posted Keita said we do have to acknowledge that people who were non-Egyptian in terms of their ethno-nationality came into the country. He would not have mentioned this if he didn't feel this non-Egyptian migration was significant. In literature he states that he feels cosmopolitan Lower Egypt may not be representative of the indigenous population and makes the statement that small steady migration over a long period of time combined with the effects of polygamy can cause a significant change in the gene frequencies and physiognomy of the population. So he clearly implies that there has been a major genetic influence on Egypt during historical times citing the Greco-Roman and Islamic periods specifically.

One thing I do find of interest in the video is the statement that the physical diversity of Ancient Egypt would have been the same as the present. He also says the Egyptians had mixed ancestry since the pre-dynastic period. Now ofcourse that begs the question, mixed with what? Also mixed to what degree? In personal communication with me he says that the typical Upper Egyptian to Nubian skin color would have been the model in most of the country suggesting that Ancient Egyptians were primarily dark-skinned. Could the Egyptians have diversity like that of the present and be primarily dark-skinned? That's possible. It could just mean that diverse phenotypes were present in the Nile Valley since the pre-dynastic and that there may have been a light-skinned element in Egypt during the Dynastic period establishing diversity but just not to the level that there is today.

We have to be careful about attributing statements to scholars that they did not make. Keita never said that light-skinned people were the predominate people of Lower Egypt or that they had been in place since the Paleolithic period. He said that we could draw conclusions from modern DNA studies about populations movements going back to the Paleolithic period.

As I recall Brace et al. (1993) were the ones who came to the conclusion that Egyptians were Egyptians and had been in place since the Pleistocene, unaffected by invasions or migrations. They also repudiated the views of Afrocentrists taking particular aim at the work of Cheikh Anta Diop. Keita responded to Brace et al (1993) in an article published under his original name (J.D. Walker) titled, "The Misrepresentation of Diop's Views."

He made alot of criticisms of Brace's study within that article.

Having read several of Keita's articles I can safely say that his conclusion is that Ancient Egypt was a fundamentally African civilization and that Egypt underwent significant cultural and biological changes over the past 2000 years since the time of the Pharaohs. I think he and Ivan Van Sertima are in agreement that the Africanity of Ancient Egypt was diluted by European and Near Eastern elements resulting in the modern diversity seen today.

 

[MKGLouisville]

So in conclusion to this thread and with the shear amount of biocultural evidence and conversely the lack of opposing evidence it is safe to say that the ancient egyptians were an indigenous African population that would be be considered 'black' in most modern context of the word.

 

[ParkCungHee]

So in conclusion to this thread and with the shear amount of biocultural evidence and conversely the lack of opposing evidence it is safe to say that the ancient egyptians were an indigenous African population that would be be considered 'black' in most modern context of the word.

Necrobumping a thread to declare retroactive victory after everyone has left. A classy maneuver.

 

[MKGLouisville]

Necrobumping a thread to declare retroactive victory after everyone has left. A classy maneuver.

You talk as if I'm posting this late to avoid any particular members which is clearly not the case as evidenced by the month long silence after Mentuhotep's post. I asked this question because of the profound arrogance of some of the early posters to dismiss 'black Egypt' as some sort of unsupported fringe theory. My question is now that those posters have been proven wrong and it has been demonstrated that they are the one's holding on to old colonial 'fringe theories' will they still throw hissy fits and scream 'Afrocentrism' when someone states that the ancient Egyptians were 'black'.

 

[ParkCungHee]

You talk as if I'm posting this late to avoid any particular members which is clearly not the case as evidenced by the month long silence after Mentuhotep's post.

You act as if the month long silence has anything to do with Mentuhotep's post. Declaring victory by virture of being the last person arguing is the oldest and most childish of Internet Debate tactics.

 

[MKGLouisville]

You act as if the month long silence has anything to do with Mentuhotep's post. Declaring victory by virture of being the last person arguing is the oldest and most childish of Internet Debate tactics.

It's quite apparent that Mentu's post was the 'death blow' to the last line of opposition for that stance. The content in the post is asking for 'put up or shut up' evidence and the opposition had to 'shut up'. This entire debate was fueled by the arrogance and ignorance of certain posters and my question again is now that their evidence lacking 'fringe theory' has been debunked by overwhelming evidence will they still stick their noses up at someone referring to ancient Egypt as 'black'?

 

[innonimatu]

will they still stick their noses up at someone referring to ancient Egypt as 'black'?

I guess that this deserves some answer. So... yes. And, preemptively, I warn that I can't be bothered to argue with you, so declare victory all you want. And next time try preaching to the walls instead, the end result will be the same.

 

[Cynovolans]

A few things that were claimed as evidence towards a Black Egypt.

1. Afro-Asiatic languages-Although Keita places the origin of the Afro-Asiatic languages in the Horn of Africa, Alexander Militarev and other linguists have placed an Asiatic origin. Which is supported by the large number of Caucasian loanwards in the Proto-Afro-Asiatic language, and the language fits a more Middle Eastern environment.

2. Skeleton and Cranial Analysis-Although some Egyptian samples cluster with Nubians, this article, suggests that they are only similar because of living in similar environments. There is also the problem of where Nubians are, compared to Sub-Saharan Africans and Eurasians. There was one 2003 publications that based on cranial analysis, Nubians cluster more with North Africans than with Sub-Saharan Africans, (with a map).

3. DNA-Populations of the Western Oases of Egypt still show that their DNA was mostly formed during the Neolithic from Near Eastern people.

 

[MKGLouisville]

I guess that this deserves some answer. So... yes.

SMH Boy boy boy its sad and pathetic racism is alive today and comes in many different forms! This particular case involves you called 'intellectuals'/free thinkers in light of overwhelming evidence that should cast away all shadows of doubt you all would rather be struck by lightening then admit that Egypt is a product of black Africans.

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