The AH Debate

[Marla_Singer]

A civilization leader should be someone the civilization is proud of. Someone they consider as having contributed to the development of their civilization. As Germans don't seem to be particularly proud of Hitler, I doubt this man represents well the German civilization.

Frankly, anyone having the idea to put Hitler for Germany is sponsoring a US ethno-centric perception of the game. This guy rejected most of Germany cultural inheritance, including brilliant philosophers such as Kant. Hitler sponsored books burning ! This follows the opposite path from civilization. What next ? Requesting a khmer rouge civilization lead by Pol Pot ?

 

[r_rolo1]

Adolf Hitler and civilization ?

Frankly I don't see any link between both.

I do... No man can kill more than a small number of other men by his own hands, even with all of the rage ther is in this world. Every mass killer needs a beaurocracy and people that obey him. And that requires a civilization. The same wonderful social structure that gave us artists and scientists has the power to do this kind of stuff.

P.S I really don't agree with your sig... But that is a entirely diferent issue.

 

[Marla_Singer]

I do... No man can kill more than a small number of other men by his own hands, even with all of the rage ther is in this world. Every mass killer needs a beaurocracy and people that obey him. And that requires a civilization. The same wonderful social structure that gave us artists and scientists has the power to do this kind of stuff.

P.S I really don't agree with your sig... But that is a entirely diferent issue.

No matter the point of view, Hitler has more limited the raise of the German civilization than he contributed to its development. I'm sorry but that doesn't make a good leader. This isn't true for Stalin or Mao who did contributed to the raise of their country in a certain way.

Hitler as the leader of the German civilization sounds as awckward to me as Pol Pot being the leader of the Khmer civilization.

 

[Mat777]

What exactly constitutes denial of Holocaust? I believe Jews were persecuted. I believe they were sent into camps to provide forced labor. I believe they died in numbers - many were killed, many starved to death when Germany was starting to lose the war and when it had neither enough provisions nor logistical means to feed the prisoners. I believe these were concentration camps, not extermination camps (as there is difference; there were concentration camps e.g in US also). I believe it all still constitutes a major crime against humanity.

However, I do not believe in gas chambers. I do not believe in 6 million dead Jews. (Gosh - even, say one million or half a million is an awful lot - is it not disrespectful for them to exaggerate with numbers??). And I believe that both Soviet and Allied propaganda has been manipulating with evidence to show things worse than they were and are trying to hide it by imposing historical dogmas. (Theoretically one might claim, that that ends justify means here and that history is being altered for greater good - to prevent Nazism from reemerging. Not sure, might have vice versa effect )

If I was in Germany, would my beliefs were ground for me to be held responsible for Holocaust-denial? Anybody knowledgeable? Psyringe?

The Jewish now use the holocaust for their own purpose? Maybe, but what you said is just the point of the iceberg.

First of all, how can you try to make us believe the jews was dying in the camp because the German didn't even have food for their own soldier?
Ignorance or propaganda?

And for the rest of the iceberg, what about all those medical EXPERIMENT on real/live human being? Do you know that all the MODERN healthcare is base on the nazis research? On who you think those experiment has been done? They didn't just gaz and kill jews in mass, they also tortured them in mass.
Open up the skull alive to know which part of the brain was doing what.
I guess not only the nazis did this in the mankind history, but they are the only one that I know.

Hitler was pure evil, he was satan himself. The nazis cross is using some mind control stuff, everything related to nazis should be burn and ban. And forget.

 

[vicawoo]

Hitler wasn't evil. Philosophies of evil seem to be required to conclude Nazis are evil. We just say that so that we don't feel guilty or frightened about ourselves.

Europe had been persecuting Jews for centuries. If you look at media from the early 20th century, it was extremely racist against Jews. So Fact 1: people didn't like Jews.

Civilization is brutal. In the fertile crescent, there were a lot of wars, and I remember at least one instance of a conquerer burying people alive in walls. In Sudan, a lot of people, just so happened to butcher like a million people with machetes. And is totalitarianism that strange, or does it happen in a lot of transitioning countries? An aberration, or maybe, people tend to commit "attrocities" every now and then.

People don't see war as a bad thing. In history, a lot of the successful leaders were able to expand their borders and unify a country. Let's say the Nazis arose in the middle ages. Would we say, oh my god, they tried to conquer poland and france, that's so aggressive, or that they were the new Alexander? Some say we changed, but there are a lot of wars going on in the world, it's just they don't make the news because of lack of interest.

Finally, the view that Hitler had to be stopped, or else. Napoleon had to be stopped, so did Genghis. You win some, you lose some. And millions die, cultures are imposed, civilizations are destroyed. That's human history, and to say it's evil is to deny what we do.

Look at the game we're playing. It's somewhat modeled after history, and we use slavery to kill off population, we try to kill off other civilizations, and we will make war to a peaceful neighbor if it's to our benefit. Look at prisons or people bombing abortion clinics or lynching black people.

 

[Mat777]

Like I said in a previous post, they were all evil for me. At least all that try to conquer for ressource or money. Some other conquer for "civilization" , but this appear to be a pile of steaming . .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. They all make war for their own good. There is a large difference between what Hitler did and what other did. Its why i'm saying Hitler was pure evil.

As for the jewish, the only reason why everybody hate them is because they are not hypocrite. Nazism is not only about the jewish, they also gaz/torture their own ppl, they kill everything they believe not good. Black, retards, idiots, yellow, asian.

 

[hossam]

the russians got over stalin why cant the germans getn over hitler why are they being such babys?no offense to any germans out there.

 

[flyingchicken]

^Because the Soviets were better at keeping things secretive (thus more forgettable) than the Nazis?

 

[Joe Harker]

And for the rest of the iceberg, what about all those medical EXPERIMENT on real/live human being? Do you know that all the MODERN healthcare is base on the nazis research? On who you think those experiment has been done? .

Now come on you know that can't be true, they didn't test antibiotics on people in the concentration camps because the Brtish discovered pencillin during the war and antibiotics have made a HUGE contibrution to medicine since the second world war.

Also plastic surgery was developed greatly by British hospitals, from pilots that suffered very bad burns.

 

[Mat777]

Now come on you know that can't be true, they didn't test antibiotics on people in the concentration camps because the Brtish discovered pencillin during the war and antibiotics have made a HUGE contibrution to medicine since the second world war.

Also plastic surgery was developed greatly by British hospitals, from pilots that suffered very bad burns.

Anyway, whats the point? You think the brits have contributed more than the nazis for medication? Well fine, I don't care.


If they can open skull of ppl LIVE to learn how brain work, don't tell me they can't do anything else.
Btw, i wouldn't be surprise if others also did it, like I said in my previous post, the nazis are the only one I know who did it. I don't think you can find the videos of those experiments on the internet...
Nobody deny they did this, no? If you were the americain and found those tape before others, would you give out all the secret that came from it? I don't think so.

If the nazis had experiment to do, they would have take the jew for sure, but if they ran out of jew, they could have take any thing else, black, asian, retards.... Just to clarify because I don't want to let you believe im saying " hooo nooo poor jew bla bla bla" , I'M saying they were pure evil and they could have done it on anybody else which is not in thier supreme class.

I remember some doctors here in Montreal did experiment on live suject in psychiatric hospital. Those subject was Orphelin kids(they were not sick at all). Now, the question is, ours leaders knew about that? No, I don't think so. This is a huge difference.

 

[ZB2]

Hitler wasn't evil. Philosophies of evil seem to be required to conclude Nazis are evil. We just say that so that we don't feel guilty or frightened about ourselves.

Europe had been persecuting Jews for centuries. If you look at media from the early 20th century, it was extremely racist against Jews. So Fact 1: people didn't like Jews.

you are a genious. i wish the world had more of you

the russians got over stalin why cant the germans getn over hitler why are they being such babys?no offense to any germans out there.

Stalin had more than 20 million russians, Ukranians (wanna be russians) Belorussians, Slavs and whoever else into death or forced labour that almost certinely resulted in death.

Hitler only killed 11 million by his order, and they were just homosexuals, slavs, jews, gypsies, handicapped people from wherever germany laid occupation.

Like a mirror of Tsar Ivan I, there were almost no families in all of the soviet union that did not suffer from stalins rule.

 

[Mat777]

Stalin had more than 20 million russians, Ukranians (wanna be russians) Belorussians, Slavs and whoever else into death or forced labour that almost certinely resulted in death.

Like I said, they were all plain evil. The reason why Hitler is out of CIV4 is because he is too controversial. And i'm happy hes out of it because he was pure evil and I like when ppl ignore him in games like if he never existed.

What can we say about slavery of George Washington/the americain? I have read some line of the treatments they had and let me tell you, I really wonder what kind of monster can do this, if they are not evil, well please explain me what they are....

 

[ZB2]

Evil is a word that has no place in history.

I actually support state sponsored mass killings as its probably the deterant we have from the Mathusian catastrophe.

 

[Mat777]

I think you are the proof that removing Hitler from the game was the right thing to do. Just imagine if we had 150 users like you supporting Hitler daily, it would be a major problem for the community...

Like I said, too controversial and bad for kids. I now wish EA would have done MOHAA like ID did for castle wolfeistien.

 

[Mat777]

I think you are the proof that removing Hitler from the game was the right thing to do. Just imagine if we had 150 users like you supporting Hitler daily, it would be a major problem for the community...

Like I said, too controversial and bad for kids. I now wish EA would have done MOHAA like ID did for Return to Castle Wolfenstein. Look like they corrected themself in Medal of Honor: Airborne

 

[Rancid Sushi]

I think you are the proof that removing Hitler from the game was the right thing to do. Just imagine if we had 150 users like you supporting Hitler daily, it would be a major problem for the community...

Like I said, too controversial and bad for kids. I now wish EA would have done MOHAA like ID did for Return to Castle Wolfenstein. Look like they corrected themself in Medal of Honor: Airborne

Yeah. This thread is becoming a trollfest. Will probably be locked soon.

 

[Marla_Singer]

This is not a matter of good of evil, this is a matter of consistancy.

A Civilization leader is supposed to be someone who contributed to the raise/development of his/her civilization. Am I correct ? In what way did Hitler contribute to the development of the German civilization ????
NONE.

Otherwise, Germans would feel proud about him, just like Chinese people are proud of Mao and Russians are proud of Stalin. Having Hitler in the game simply doesn't make sense.

 

[Heeringas]

Hossam:
Well I think most of Germans are already over Hitler ...But seems that only nation that is not over that is USA...and da daa Israel

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

I'm totally proud of this forum. It's the only place I've met so far that can discuss this topic in a civil manner. Civil by internet standards, definitely!!!

Hitler killed people on purpose, Mao and Stalin starved people by accident. Hitler did not do Germany any good, and had no good deeds that lasts until today. Stalin and Mao left short-term disasters and (some) long-term legacies. Hitler attacked other nations, Mao and Stalin defended their nation. Most Russians and Chinese still revere Stalin and Mao for their deeds (and cursed their catastrophes), most Germans are totally embarassed and shamed at the word "Hitler".

And according to (un)reliable sources, the Russian peasents knew selling grain to buy industrial equipment would mean mass starvation, and thought it a willing sacrifice.

 

[Winston Hughes]

I actually support state sponsored mass killings

If you're first against the wall when the next one starts, might you see things rather differently? Or do you assume that these things should only happen to 'other people'?