The Aremenian Genocide

We know the truth, and there is significant evidence that the genocide took place. In fact, the Ottoman government prosecuted several members of the CUP for being in charge of the killings before the Great War even ended. It is only the position of the government of the Kemalist Republic of Turkey that insists on alternately denying that anything happened and providing justification for the actions of the CUP. The only way that this is going to be solved is if the Turkish government (and apparently its people) acknowledge what their forefathers did ninety years ago and perhaps try to make amends somehow.

You think,you know the truth.I am not denying or accepting genocide.I am not sure about it.If other european countries are sure,that the action was genocide,then they should do like what France has done.It will bring a solution.;)
 
Actually, it's not. Turks are just the most recent tenants of a land in which many peoples have dwelt, including Greeks, Hatti, and Celts.

Just like the US (took it from the amerindiens), France(Gauls), Britain(Britons,Celts,Romans)-actually, now that I think about it, a lot of peoples (if not most of them) are 'just the most recent tenants' of their country.

Not that Im part of this or anything, just noticed line.
 
Just like the US (took it from the amerindiens), France(Gauls), Britain(Britons,Celts,Romans)-actually, now that I think about it, a lot of peoples (if not most of them) are 'just the most recent tenants' of their country.

Not that Im part of this or anything, just noticed line.
Exactly. The only people who deserve to live where they live are the Siberians and the Australian aborigines! Everyone else should be evicted! :p
 
Exactly. The only people who deserve to live where they live are the Siberians and the Australian aborigines! Everyone else should be evicted! :p

Corrected...;) :p

What, now this is a joke?

I've always found Turkish ambivalence about Armenian genocide to be sickening, just like how I feel about American amibvalence during the Rwanda crisis or any other instance of genocide that people can't recognize as such despite copious amounts of historical evidence.

I have no problem with you, Quildavyr, and other Turks hedging your opinions and waiting to see what the "official" consensus is. But that doesn't mean I won't be both cynical and dismissive when you guys finally get around to calling it "genocide" just because the Turkish government says so. Because in 5, 10, 20, or 100 years from now, that's what's going to happen: Turkey will finally stop dithering and admit to the genocidal actions of its Ottoman ancestors, and that's when Turks will proudly state,

"Well, of course what happened was genocide! The evidence is here and here and here, and it's so regretful that there is such a dark day in our civilization's history! Never again! Never again!"


Of course, unbiased evidence is already present, and it doesn't take a student of history to appreciate it. There's nothing stopping Turks from assessing that evidence and coming to their own conclusions. Equivocating just makes Turks seem like sycophants of Ataturk; some might not find that entirely unagreeable, but refusing to acknowledge or even think about the Armenian genocide also makes them seem as thickheaded as the American federal government on the issue, and I don't think anyone wants to live with that comparison.
 
^^ I am not a historian.I like history and read books about it but this genocide matter is too much complicated.I will read something about Armenian Genocide thing.

I want to see the evidences first..
 
I've always found Turkish ambivalence about Armenian genocide to be sickening, just like how I feel about American amibvalence during the Rwanda crisis or any other instance of genocide that people can't recognize as such despite copious amounts of historical evidence.

Why American ambivalence? Why not world ambivalence, or UN ambivalence? Since when does America have to handle everything?
 
just like how I feel about American amibvalence during the Rwanda crisis or any other instance of genocide that people can't recognize as such despite copious amounts of historical evidence.

What exactly is the deal here? We recognize its a genocide. And like nearly every other nation in the world did nothing about it. America is the world's tough guy, but that doesn't mean this crap is on us and us alone. And there's a world of difference between actually committing a genocide and ignoring someone elses. The two things don't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence.



And on the original topic, I really don't get it. It was an ugly period in your (not applying this to you or just Turks Quild, but to all peoples who have committed serious major atrocities and genocides) history. But acknowledging it doesn't make you weak. It doesn't make you monsters. The people who perpetrated it are long since dead and while the subsequent generations may decide to carry some small measure of guilt for the episode, noone in the outside world is blaming that generation for those crimes of the past. Germany had about the ugliest phase of history a people could ever have, yet noone thinks NAZI when you say Germany or German today. They owned up to their crimes. Apologize for them. Carried around guilt for them. Gave reparations to the victims of them. And the world has forgiven.

And the world doesn't even ask that most other nations do that much. Simply acknowledge them. Perhaps offer a ceremonial apology to the offended people. Stick it in the history textbooks so that the kids learn about it. And that's really all that's required and BOOM, suddenly one barrier to being a fully and universally respected nation is down.

But this continued denial and hedging serves noone, helps noone, and hurts the image of the culprit nation while angering the descendants of the victim peoples. Aggravating tensions where there doesn't need to be any.

But continued denial creates the appearance of whitewashing or even the possibility that the modern government even condoned those past horrors. Japan's recent episodes have been getting more attention and they absolutely deserve it. Their approach to this matter has been outright belligerent, especially considering that many of the victims of their crimes are still very much alive.

Our relations with a nearly genocided people (that we mostly killed off) and the descendants of slaves (who we bought and used) are not perfect. But they are a hell of alot better than they ever would be if we had tried to deny these events. If we didn't put the diseased blankets and Trail of Tears episodes in our textbooks and tried to pass it all off as Euro plagues. (which was the lions share of it, but our draconian policies aggravated it and it truly was a genocide)
 
Why American ambivalence? Why not world ambivalence, or UN ambivalence? Since when does America have to handle everything?

It doesn't. I was not implying that, for I was simply denoting ambivalence of opinion, not ambivalence of action. Furthermore, if you reread the passage you quote, you'll find I feel this way not just about America during the Rwandan crisis, but also "any other instance of genocide that people can't recognize as such despite copious amounts of historical evidence." Out of this sweeping inclusion, I named America specifically because I wanted to emphasize my own country's painful experience of hesitancy--in both opinion and action--in designating an event as genocide.

Personally, I find UN irresoluteness on the issue much more egregious. For all of its talk of human rights, all indicators suggest that the UN has no intention of intervening in current and future instances of genocide, instead sweeping them into the umbrella term "domestic conflicts." I did not mention the UN in my original post, since I was comparing ambivalence of opinions between the peoples of two countries, not between the Turkish government people and the UN organization as a whole.


What exactly is the deal here? We recognize its a genocide. And like nearly every other nation in the world did nothing about it. America is the world's tough guy, but that doesn't mean this crap is on us and us alone. And there's a world of difference between actually committing a genocide and ignoring someone elses. The two things don't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence.

To clarify my original point: at the time of the genocides in Rwanda, the US did not recognize the situation as a genocide, instead writing it off as "ethnic cleansing" in order to avoid the implications that the term "genocide" entails (namely, the need for immediate interventionist action). And as you said, the US succeeded in its policy of ignoring the situation as much as possible. But as I said in the above response, I was not referring to "ambivalence of action" in my original post; rather, simply "ambivalence of opinion." It is this ambivalence of opinion of the American federal government during the Rwandan genocide that I take issue with (for those of you who do not know, America has a whole has come to recognize Rwanda as a genocide since then).

In this sense, I'm on the same page as EnlightenmentHK. Turkey has the opportunity to change their current ambivalence of opinion on the Armenian genocide, something that would indicate that Turkey is willing to take an honest look at its history.
 
And on the original topic, I really don't get it. It was an ugly period in your (not applying this to you or just Turks Quild, but to all peoples who have committed serious major atrocities and genocides) history. But acknowledging it doesn't make you weak. It doesn't make you monsters. The people who perpetrated it are long since dead and while the subsequent generations may decide to carry some small measure of guilt for the episode, noone in the outside world is blaming that generation for those crimes of the past. Germany had about the ugliest phase of history a people could ever have, yet noone thinks NAZI when you say Germany or German today. They owned up to their crimes. Apologize for them. Carried around guilt for them. Gave reparations to the victims of them. And the world has forgiven.

That is true.I agree always that.But...

Show me the truth.I need just objective evidences.
I am not saying that we handled everyone lawfully,who lived in our lands.We might made mistakes or were cruel to minorities.That is possible.Killing 1 million-2 million people is a different thing.

Show me your resources..
 
There isnt any genocide..Armenians killed Turks with Russian support..And Turks forced them to emigrate to Syria and Hatay..In the way to Syria a lot of Armenian died because of such kind of reasons like ilnesses,and other types of reasons..After these deaths,Turks have been hold as responsible for that deaths.But Turks didnt kill Armenian people to annihilate them from world arena.Some armenian troop cavalry platoons have been killed by East Turkey Army Leader Kazım Karabekir;maybe the death bodies belong to this platoons..
I know because i study Ottoman and Mongol History in University as a chosen subject and know a lot of things about their history..
 
Armenian genocide denial should be punishable same as the Holocaust denial. It was an act of pure diabolic evil. We shouldn't forget the innocent victims.
 
British already judged the "Ittihat ve Terraki" officers right after these events took place at Malta

And this was (is) Brits' verdict: There was no genocide.

What is more interesting is that Treaty of Kars (October 23, 1921) which was signed between Armenians and Turks, Armenians didn't mention anything about so-called "genocide".
If you really wondering when all this so-called "genocide" sayings started:
(see: Nogorno-Karabag war with Azerbaijan in 1994).


Last sentence: History should be written by historians (scientists) and not by parliaments (as a poor excuse to kick Turkey out of EU)
 
A genocidal country has no place in the EU.
 
A genocidal country has no place in the EU.

I thought it was Genocide makers club.That is why we try so hard to join.
Now I recognize again how bad the truth can be,genociders has no place in the EU.

Damn :mad:
 
The thing is, Turkey does not recognize there was a genocide against the Armenians. Imagine Germany saying the same thing about the Holocaust. Can you even imagine A. Merkel saying that. For me it's impossible (and with a good reason). And this is why I say: A genocidal country has no place in the EU. Feel free to call me "the biggest racist I know" because of it, if this is racism, then I suppose I am a racist. I'm the biggest racist in the world because I condemn genocide. Only people who deny the Armenian genocide aren't racists.
BTW. And what about the Pontic Greek Genocide and Assyrian Genocide? I guess I'm pointing to that because I'm such a racist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_Genocide
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontic_Greek_genocide
 
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