The Best Starting Tech Combination? (Poll)

[thelibra]

...and with the exception of bears, scouts can be a decent escort with a little planning. Thanks.

My pleasure. This was a strategy I only recently realized, within the last couple of weeks or so. I don't think it'd work against humans if you come across a human-controlled warrior, but in a solo-game, I don't think AI PC warriors will attack your settler/scout group outright. And, even if you run across the barbs, with a scout and settler, you can probably outrun them, or at least have one more vital move to hop on a forest-covered hill and improve your chances of survival.

...I usually have the warrior in an advanced position if not already positioned at the city site, so there is really no wasted time, just a little pre-planning of where to go and where to position units. The difference may be that I almost never send my first settler off a long distance from the starting city.

Exactly. You either have to keep them close to home for this strategy to work, and possibly miss out on a sweeter spot, or you have to slow them down. Additionally, you can't build "settler first" in this strategy.

If you can pop a settler in 20-25 turns, and escort it to a destination in under 5 turns to a spot 10 squares away, then you'll have your city placed much faster and less risky than one where you build a warrior first, then a settler, and have to move them 10 squares away. And since the first action of your "new city" would be to produce a warrior anyway, you still end up with one to guard your new city relatively soon.

Of course this assumes you end up with a civ that "settler first" is the best strategy, which it sometimes isn't... but I tend to play "settler first" strategies, as I see the most benefit from it the most often.

Well, time to go home and log some more time. I think this poll has convinced me to give Zara a shot.

 

[Kevin J]

Mining has to be one choice. Must have for Bronze Working in order to chop that first settler and maybe an early wonder.

I don't give a hoot for Mysticism or Hunting.

That leaves Agriculture, Fishing and the Wheel as the other choices. All are needed techs for Pottery (Ag/Fish being a choice), which is the tech I often care about after Bronze Working.

With Agriculture, I can create farms which probably won't earn me commerce, thus slowing my teching. With Wheel I get nothing immediately other than the ability to connect non-riverside resources. With fishing, I can get food and commerce.

I voted Mining+Fishing.

Well argued.

 

[Lightwave]

...That leaves Agriculture, Fishing and the Wheel as the other choices. All are needed techs for Pottery (Ag/Fish being a choice), which is the tech I often care about after Bronze Working.

With Agriculture, I can create farms which probably won't earn me commerce, thus slowing my teching. With Wheel I get nothing immediately other than the ability to connect non-riverside resources. With fishing, I can get food and commerce...

I think that you are neglecting the faster growth aspect that Agriculture provides with your first worker. Agriculture does not immediately provide more commerce, but it substantially decreases the time that it takes to increase population. Your stated goal of bronze working first would preclude taking Agriculture first, so that leaves less food in the short term.

Second, the extra food counts as production for workers and settlers, and that is something I value as well. Food->Production for important units early on is a great deal because food is usually more plentiful than production then. You did mention chopping the early settler, but using the extra food will probably save a forest to be used for an early wonder (I like to build/chop Stonehenge for example) and try to get the Great Wall. There are also some times that you start out with only a few forests, and the food strategy is always useful.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

Mining has to be one choice. Must have for Bronze Working in order to chop that first settler and maybe an early wonder.

I don't give a hoot for Mysticism or Hunting.

That leaves Agriculture, Fishing and the Wheel as the other choices. All are needed techs for Pottery (Ag/Fish being a choice), which is the tech I often care about after Bronze Working.

With Agriculture, I can create farms which probably won't earn me commerce, thus slowing my teching. With Wheel I get nothing immediately other than the ability to connect non-riverside resources. With fishing, I can get food and commerce.

I voted Mining+Fishing.

The problem with Fishing is that it's hit-or-miss. Agriculture gives you a decent chance of having an improvement straight away, and also opens the door to AH and more improvements. One shouldn't overvalue early commerce. Early food is also extremely important. While it is ideal to get both, this often isn't the case...

 

[danieldaniel]

Nobody voted for fishing+the wheel hehe, I guess those technologies don't combine too well Which one is the afortunated leader?

 

[Polycrates]

Agriculture is not only the most expensive of the early techs, but also the most generally useful of the worker techs.
I would choose Hunting for the other tech. Having an early scout instead of a warrior can get you a lot more early recon for planning stuff out, and often a fair few more goodies from huts. It also means you're only one tech away from archery, which is utterly necessary on emperor+ raging barbs, where you get swarmed well before you can hook up copper.

 

[Supr49er]

Nobody voted for fishing+the wheel hehe, I guess those technologies don't combine too well Which one is the afortunated leader?

Tokugawa of Japan.

 

[troytheface]

i voted mining/wheel......who has that?......because at prince level i still gun for the Great Wall.

 

[Supr49er]

i voted mining/wheel......who has that?......because at prince level i still gun for the Great Wall.

I think only Mansa Musa of the Malinese. He's SPI/FIN with the UU of Skirmisher and the UB of Mint. Pretty playable civ.

 

[KMadCandy]

i like myst/mining. myst for the shot at an early religion. only one worker tech, but it's my favorite to start with (perhaps only because i have started with it so often, i play gandhi a lot). i almost always have a hill or two to mine while i wait for other worker techs to come in. mining opens up BW, and it also opens up masonry, which is required for monotheism, so i have a really good shot at being first to monotheism even if i do a worker tech detour before concentrating on religion. that depends on the difficulty level and the opponents of course. isn't so great if izzy's out there, and it seems to me that hatty loves to beeline mono (even tho she doesn't start with myst).

i love fishing for coastal starts. because i don't have to spend any effort deciding what to build first.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

I think only Mansa Musa of the Malinese. He's SPI/FIN with the UU of Skirmisher and the UB of Mint. Pretty playable civ.

A great civ, IMO! Mansa Musa was the tech god in Warlords (alongside Ghandi) and should still keep ahead of the pack in BTS. Unfortunately for poor Mansa, Zara has Org/Fin and usually expands faster than anyone on the map including myself!

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

A great civ, IMO! Mansa Musa was the tech god in Warlords (alongside Ghandi) and should still keep ahead of the pack in BTS. Unfortunately for poor Mansa, Zara has Org/Fin and usually expands faster than anyone on the map including myself!

Zara is Cre/Org. Darius of Persia in Fin/Org.

 

[Elandal]

I've done settler first very few times. Rarely do I believe it to be efficient. Still, sometimes I do have settler(s) during animal time already when scouts can act as escorts, but even later during archer time scouts can fogbust the settler's path. Remember that while during animal time you have wolves and panthers as two move threats, once animals are phased out no two movers are around, so fogbusting is enough, strict escorting not necessary.

On exploring: scouts cover twice as much land expect over terrain features (hills, forests, jungles). So they might cover even 30% more than a warrior Also, warrior will be better off after fights with animals (scout gets +100% against animals making it almost as good as warrior against them) and once at woodsman II the warrior is almost as fast as woods2 scout is. Woodsman II warrior will be more useful later on than scout, and actually more likely to survive and exist later on..

On huts: On higher levels popping hut with scout yields HIGHER chance for tech than on lower levels. This is because scout can't pop angries, and each level adds angries while not decreasing techs (because they're rare to begin with). On Monarch I expect 1-3 techs from huts on average, so if I pop eg. Wheel + Sailing I'm OK, but if I pop BW + IW I'm playing a Prince-level game essentially. And if my scout dies, I will never get that exploration nor hutpopping done.


I don't agree on scouts being useful unless huts are in play. And huts lead to random that can effectively drop the game level by one and because with Hunting I would want that second scout to enhance my chances of getting maximum hut yield, has chance to make the game harder by killing my scouts fast without good hut yields, ending in no exploration and wasted hammers. Without huts I'll at least not build that second scout, and will explore slower with warriors, using terrain more, and so on - there's no hurry.

 

[Martinus]

I'd say Mysticism and Mining, especially if your leader is not Creative.

Mysticism gives you a shot at an early religion (or, if you fail that, lets you build Monuments), and Mining means you are one step closer to Bronze Working.

 

[azzaman333]

From a strictly tech standpoint, I think Mysticism/Fishing is probably the best combo, as it allows you to get an early jump on Buddhism, and fish coastal tiles for the extra gold needed to beat other civs with Mysticism to the punch. Additionally, assuming you start on a coastline, it allows your first improvement to be the workboat, widely considered to be among the best "first build" items when available.

The downside? Only leader that has this combo is Isabella, who has some of the worst UU and UB in the game.

My favourite combo too, which is why I love being Financial Spanish leaders with Unrestriced Leaders.

 

[TM Moot]

Mysticism and Mining got my vote.

Always like to grab an early religion (usually with Poly..), then get BW to find that Copper. Once those two are discovered, you should have a second warrior and a worker ready for action.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Zara is Cre/Org. Darius of Persia in Fin/Org.

Right on. Zara even more so, in that case. Early game expansion is a cinch with Zara, and AFAIK, his UB has a good synergy with his traits. The UU isn't half bad either.

 

[Lightwave]

I've done settler first very few times. Rarely do I believe it to be efficient. Still, sometimes I do have settler(s) during animal time already when scouts can act as escorts, but even later during archer time scouts can fogbust the settler's path. Remember that while during animal time you have wolves and panthers as two move threats, once animals are phased out no two movers are around, so fogbusting is enough, strict escorting not necessary. ...

Good point. After real barbs come along, the scout can still act as a fog busting escort. It's the thing that we all do instinctively, but it is nice to bring it out clearly. It makes me value my even scouts more. I tend to send them far and wide perpetually exploring until they die, but with this thread, I may bring them back after a while to help with expansion. I'll have to give it some in game thought, the Lord willing.

On exploring: scouts cover twice as much land expect over terrain features (hills, forests, jungles). So they might cover even 30% more than a warrior Also, warrior will be better off after fights with animals (scout gets +100% against animals making it almost as good as warrior against them) and once at woodsman II the warrior is almost as fast as woods2 scout is. Woodsman II warrior will be more useful later on than scout, and actually more likely to survive and exist later on.

That is definitely true. I love it when I get my first Woodsman II Warrior, but it takes quite a while to get him and in the meantime I am losing huts.

On huts: On higher levels popping hut with scout yields HIGHER chance for tech than on lower levels. This is because scout can't pop angries, and each level adds angries while not decreasing techs (because they're rare to begin with). On Monarch I expect 1-3 techs from huts on average, so if I pop eg. Wheel + Sailing I'm OK, but if I pop BW + IW I'm playing a Prince-level game essentially. And if my scout dies, I will never get that exploration nor hutpopping done. ...

This I did not know. Thanks for the info. It makes the use of the scout even more important thus making a Hunting start even better. Interesting.

I quibble with the 1-3 tech average though. I play a lot of early games more or less, and I feel happy to get one, and two is a major bonus. I may be wrong, but I can't remember ever getting three on Monarch.

I don't agree on scouts being useful unless huts are in play. And huts lead to random that can effectively drop the game level by one and because with Hunting I would want that second scout to enhance my chances of getting maximum hut yield, has chance to make the game harder by killing my scouts fast without good hut yields, ending in no exploration and wasted hammers. Without huts I'll at least not build that second scout, and will explore slower with warriors, using terrain more, and so on - there's no hurry.

Interesting point to think about. The huts actually entice the player to spend some extra early turns putting out an extra one or two Scouts/Warriors instead of a worker or settler. It is another "interesting decision" for the player to make whether to build that extra scout or a worker. That is a plus to me.

In the end, I just think the huts add a little early game fun, so I like including them.

 

[Thyrwyn]

There are several good combos:

Agriculture/Wheel - You can research Anumal Husbandry right away and have two food techs and Chariots for early rushing/barb patrol/scouting. Hunting/Wheel is almost as good, as you can also grab Archery early for defense.

Fishing/Mysticism - best for early religion grabs.

Hunting/Mining - Best for fast expansion OR rushing. You can research BW, Archery, and Animal Husbandry right out of the gate for better units AND you start with a scout which will reveal the surrounding land faster for more aggressive/efficient city placement.

 

[Antilogic]

On the difficulty I play on, earning an early religion is nearly impossible unless you literally beeline for Judaism and start with Mysticism or Mining. So, I ruled that approach out.

I was hard-pressed to pick between Mining and Agriculture and Mining and Hunting (because I'm a sucker for the scout, and I don't typically start near the ocean despite playing high water maps for some odd reason, and feel dirty hitting the re-roll until my starting tech of Fishing is useful). In the end...I suppose Mining and Agriculture is better, because those AI pop huts so quickly with their extra starting units I rarely get anything anyway. But I always love those times I get a Scout to start and he pops any technology at all (I get a tech maybe once every 5 games or so from a hut)...the last time was quite memorable, because I found some icy huts with Iron Working.