The Best Swordsman UU

Which is the best Swordsman UU?

  • Persian Immortal

    Votes: 53 42.7%
  • Roman Legionairre

    Votes: 18 14.5%
  • Gallic Swordsman

    Votes: 47 37.9%
  • Other/Don't know/etc

    Votes: 6 4.8%

  • Total voters
    124
Legions shouuld have 4-3-1 and an HP bonus but cost 50 sheilds. I am playing the rise of rome right now and legion just don't don't die. They should be expensive and highly trained to build them you should also have to have a barracks in the city
 
Speed kills.

You are better off with a weaker attacker if you have them in the right time at the right spot!
 
Longasc said:
Speed kills.

You are better off with a weaker attacker if you have them in the right time at the right spot!

When facing a disciplinated solid "block" infantry, nothing can break it....
 
Legions -once they start roll'n -are nearly invinceable- combine a stack with catapults and they can truly be a terror...my vote would go to legions
 
Pedro, this is too general.

If nothing can break it if not overwhelming force, what else?

Edit: I do not get your point. What do you want to say?
 
Come in, Immortal. A lot of people rate it as simple the best UU of all, and 4 attack in the Ancient Era? Even Hoplites and Numidian Mercs aren't safe!

Neil. :cool:
 
Comrade Pedro said:
I disagreed with you. If you take Alexander's great conquest, you'll realized his army was based on greek phalanxs and their faced a lot bigger persian armies, that were composed by cavalry....

The Roman Empire's army was essentially legionares, and they were good because of their good weapons and discipline. When it began to fel, the material they used for helmets, for example, weren't the same. In the weakest times the Roman Army used caps instead of metal helmets. Also, their discipline began to fel, and mostly roman army has barbarian recruits....

however,alexanders cavalry lacked things like stirups IIRC and other stuff.while i am no history expert,mobile forces can inflict major damage on slow moving formations.when i say light cav\horse archers i think of mongol cavalry.look at what they did,they lost disintegrated because they were not skilled at holding those areas.cav can circle around and cut supplies etc and hit-and-run tactics.
 
(Celts 440 Gallics to the Persians 400 Immortals),

There's something goofy about that experiment, Chieftess, if the Celts had a significant numerical advantage on the Persians... 40 shield units vs. 30 shield units? I'm guessing you showed the Agricultural trait beats up on the other traits.... And that the UU was just a sidelight attraction.

:(
Arathorn
 
Arathorn said:
There's something goofy about that experiment, Chieftess, if the Celts had a significant numerical advantage on the Persians... 40 shield units vs. 30 shield units? I'm guessing you showed the Agricultural trait beats up on the other traits.... And that the UU was just a sidelight attraction.

:(
Arathorn
Yes, agriculture is a powerfull one (Or so I've heard, I only have Vanilla) I suggest you repeat this experiment with traits off so we can have a direct comparison of the UUs.
 
Yuri2356 said:
Yes, agriculture is a powerfull one (Or so I've heard, I only have Vanilla) I suggest you repeat this experiment with traits off so we can have a direct comparison of the UUs.

If you are going to do this as an actual scientific test, you will also need a control group Civ with no swordsmen UU. I would go with America or Germany so there is little chance their UU will ever come up.
 
Gallic Swordsmen if you have accpeting terrain otherwise Immortials.
 
It is good to see the Immortal in the lead. The definitely kick arse. And yes, perhaps it would be good, if possible, to change the experiment so that the same civs are used for all three UUs. That way, no civ would have an advantage based on traits. Just a thought.
 
The next experiment would be without civ-traits.

Celts had their Agricultural trait nullified due to no fresh water at the start. And in this setting, it didn't really help. (all civs had about 6 cities).
 
Longasc said:
Pedro, this is too general.

If nothing can break it if not overwhelming force, what else?

Edit: I do not get your point. What do you want to say?

I wanted to say, that infantry is invincible when is well trained and is in a solid formation....

Take a look at the the XV/XVI centuries: any cavalry were easily smash by some well-trained mercenaires pikemen, or even with some spanish arcabuzers.......In that time, inspired by the Classical Age, the military concept change is area of most importante from cavalry to infantry.....In spite of beeing fast, the cavalry doesn't stand much time agaisnt a defensive line of pikes.....
 
In PTW Gallics were nearly broken. Combining the Mil trait with the retreat ability led to a lot of Elites which meant a lot of leaders, which meant that the Celts took all the AA and MA wonders they wanted.
 
Gallics were 50 shields in PTW, which meant that almost nobody built them.

Gallic is clearly the best Sword UU. It has both A) range and B) the ability to retreat while losing, both on offense AND defense.

If you have a stack of 16 Immortals vs. a stack of 12 Gallics who would win?

The Gallics by leaps and bounds. With their movement they can pick where to fight, whether to attack or defend, and even while losing have a 59+% shot at retreating to fight another day. A stack of Immortals would be eaten for lunch.
 
I used the C3C 1.22 Combat Calc,

assume a 4 HP Vet Immortal is attacking a 4 HP Vet Gallic on grasslands, not fortified:

Defender Wins: 20% - Attacker wins: 39%
Defender Loss: 39% - Attacker loss: - 20%
(just the opposite, simple...)

and now - tataaa - retreat:

DRAW / RETREAT of the Gallic: 40,6%

Defender wins or at least survives to around 60%.

Even more simplified, more than half of the Gallics run away to recover, while every 5th Immortal bites the dust even on its terms with 4 attack vs 2 defense.

This clearly shows the offensive advantage, but that many Gallics actually escape.

NOTE: If Gallics defend a city, they will not retreat. Advantage to Immortals.

Now what happens if the Gallics attack the Immortals?

Gallic left, Immortal right, short notation, I am lazy:
64% win - 16% win
16% loss - 64% loss
DRAW: 19%

Every 5th Gallic retreats on the attack, and only every 6th app. dies.
As the Immortals do never retreat, the Gallics kill 64% of them and rout 19%. The Immortals killed only 39% of the Gallics and routed app 41%.

But well - Both are not supposed to fight each other anyways... a fortified Pikeman or Musketman in a 7-12 size city is a tough cookie for both, lets see how they do against a pikeman:

Fortified pikeman, city on plains.

Immortal: Wins 32,7%, dies to 67,3%
2 of 3 Immortals die.

Gallic: Wins only 19,5%, dies to 39% and retreats in 41% of the cases to try it again in a few turns. 2 of 5 Gallics die.

The same game with a musketman - defence 4

Immortal: Win 20%, loss 80%
4 of 5 Immortals die!

Gallic: Wins only 10%, loss 43%, retreat: 45%
2 of 5 Gallics die roughly

Now we could say: The Immortal costs 30, the Gallic 40 shields.
In the example above, we could save 120 shields for the Gallics, and only 30 for Persia.

The thing is, a cost of 30 has not only the advantage of being simply cheaper, it probably needs one turn less to produce. At this stage of the game, 2 turn production is likely, and an Immortal might be produced in 2 turns (15 production, idealized), but a gallic would would waste shields and still need 3 turns.

Say 20 turns production period: 10 Immortals vs. 6 Gallics.

Lets say we attack pikemen who sit fortified in a city. :)

(simplified) roughly 3-4 Immortals die. 6-7 left.
But also 2-3 Gallics. 3-4 left.

Sheer mass has its benefits, too. They can easily stop rioting, and larger numbers means a smaller chance for your invasion force to fall victim to an unlucky dice roll. Tank vs Spearman example. ;)

Still, the mobility of the Gallic Swordsman is a big plus, too. Not only for retreat. I also consider a Gallic Army to be more powerful, one more attack and high movement speed.


If you are in Monarchy and the need arises to garrison some conquered cities, the mass of the Immortals makes for better defenders - but they are not supposed to be it, and well...

I just want to point out, I think the Gallics are better and prefer them, but still the Immortals are not THAT inferior, they have advantages.

Now I would be interested how Legions would perform, but their problem is that they do not have the retreat of the Gallic nor the attack power of the Immortal.

Perhaps someone has time and mood to do an analysis for them, too... but somehow I am sure that specialists are better than allrounders in a game against the AI at least. In Multiplayer, who knows - the Legions have no strength, but they are worth a normal Swordsman's attack and have the defence of a Pikeman. This can be really useful as they are versatile.
 
Nice test Longasc :goodjob: , very interesting :coffee: . Since getting C3C
I have probably played the Celts the most, Gallics :spank: AI butt! ;)
 
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