The bold nature of civ7 goes deeper than just civ switching - it's about sandbox vs structured narrative

If the land controled by your empire was at least in part the same, the horses likely were there before the crisis this "horse epiphany" is lame when is so easy to have a system where you can interact with a list of Independent peoples that appear at the crisis period from the map borders (impassable sea, deserts, tundra, jungles) between these peoples you have the Xioungu, the Rouran, etc. And you can send emissaries to hire them as mercenaries, grant them lands to make them a buffer versus others barbarians, build royal ties with some princess, send missionaries, etc.
Actually, having Crisis Barbarians/Revolutionaries that are representatives of the civs you unlocked for the next Age would be really interesting

So a Egypt would have pre-Songhai and pre-Abbasids gathering at the gates... but if they had 3 horses there would also be pre-Mongols
The Normans would be dealing with pre-British, pre-French, and pre-American revolutionaries

After the Crisis you decide,
which of those groups come to power, (gameplay effect)
did they come to power because you coopted them or were replaced by them....(headcannon effect only.. any in game narration should support either interpretation)
Did they (adopt your name/you keep yours) Or did (you adopt thiers/they kept theirs)... (UI effect of Names, and possibly flag and city graphics)
 
If renaming cities was out, that would be pretty bad.

However, I'm talking about choosing the name for your civ, and what city list it will default use (and have that choice at the point of choosing the new civ... and probably just have the two options being new civ name, and whichever name you are currently using
I would also argue that any and all agency they can give to the gamer is A Good Thing.

Let us rename our Civs, Leaders, Cities, Towns, Settlements, Ships, Scout's dogs, - everything they can fiddle the UI into accepting.

After all, if the Mongols are going to spring full-tilt from Egypt via the Game Design Magic Wand, it's a much smaller stretch (to me) to rename them Kushans or the Karlak Yabgu or the Cuman-Kipchak Confederation with my own City List.
A horse archer is a horse archer is a Keshik . . .

Leaders might be harder in Civ VII, since they have reduced the gamer to a Third Person while the Leaders snarl at each other, but at least in the printed text of their speeches, it shouldn't be that hard to change a name . . .
 
Actually, having Crisis Barbarians/Revolutionaries that are representatives of the civs you unlocked for the next Age would be really interesting

So a Egypt would have pre-Songhai and pre-Abbasids gathering at the gates... but if they had 3 horses there would also be pre-Mongols
The Normans would be dealing with pre-British, pre-French, and pre-American revolutionaries
We know there would be an influence system for Independent Peoples, this could be complemented by some priority (extra influence points) for the "historical/regional" option civs. So Egyptians could have extra influence on the Arabic IP to make them almost secure to turn into an Egyptian Sultanate (if the player want it, of course) .

After the Crisis you decide,
which of those groups come to power, (gameplay effect)
did they come to power because you coopted them or were replaced by them....(headcannon effect only.. any in game narration should support either interpretation)
Did they (adopt your name/you keep yours) Or did (you adopt thiers/they kept theirs)... (UI effect of Names, and possibly flag and city graphics)
Take our own decisions that lead to the next civ would always be more satisfactory and immersive. Even many game achievements could come from the way you get to change. I am not so good to make the jokes and reference names for the achievements right now, but the ways and option you chose as your "transition faction" are perfect excuses to add more replayability.
 
Not sure this has been brought up, but I imagine that the expansion of the map could also mean the introduction of additional factions. Implicitly, that's already confirmed in that later ages can have more factions/players than earlier ones. What I'd imagine is that those new continents you can discover in the exploration age are not only filled with independent peoples, wonders, etc. ... but also players.

Which, in a way, could be quite nifty. It could be a behind-the-scenes rubber band to create new opponents that are on par with whatever dominance the player achieved. Steamrolled half the starting continent? Say hello to an AI that did the same to theirs and now commands a huge empire. More modest or peaceful experience? Welcome 2-3 new factions to the game.

It harks back to comments by a dev (Soren Johnsen?) about good AI vs fun AI and that, in some ways, it should almost play the role of a good dungeon master sometimes. That whole ages and expanding-map structure could be a way there without it feeling that cheesy. Although it may bring its own issues, e.g. it could get samey to always get extra civs at those points, it devalues the achievements you make if you know what's going on under the hood, maybe more.

I wonder if there are ways to expand the map that don't involve other continents. Impassable mountain chains? I suppose big climate changes (melting ice barriers or land bridges raising) is too far fetched scientifically and for the time horizon we play civ.
 
Not sure this has been brought up, but I imagine that the expansion of the map could also mean the introduction of additional factions. Implicitly, that's already confirmed in that later ages can have more factions/players than earlier ones. What I'd imagine is that those new continents you can discover in the exploration age are not only filled with independent peoples, wonders, etc. ... but also players.
Yes, we've been told this explicitly and that the earlier portion of the game for these new players is simulated--though what exactly that means has not been made clarified yet.
 
I have only realized this in light of the recent discussion of how there is a considerable chance civ7 is going to limit the freedom od map generation script, so that there is always "new world" to explore. Civ switching is merely a symptom of a deeper underlying idea which is quite revolutionary (and very controversial) undertaking. In fact, devs have almost explicitly said it, but only now I truly "got" implications.

Previous civ games, and almost? all 4X games in fact (and most strategy games in general?) have been sandboxes. You freely choose the civ, the map script, and then off you go. The game consists of a world with civs thrown there and broad static rules (not really changing with eras), according to which civs follow snowballing accumulating growth to victory. There is no broader structure beyond what occurs as a result of AI or human civs individually do.

The upside of this approach is obviously freedom. The downsides are not so obvious. Total sandbox is frequently uneven and anticlimactic in all video game genres, as there is nothing commanding the "story" from beginning to an end. In 4X games this manifests as their endless problems with snowballing and steadily decreasing enjoyment the longer you play. After all, at a certain point victors and losers are clear; why continue if you are just going to repeat minutiate of more and more micro (which is less and less meaningful) in the static slog till the anticlimactic end? Additionally, it is very contrary to the real history, with its very dramatic twists and turns.

There has been a thread on this forum where we discussed how to solve the endgame problem. The general take I personally had from it was that in order to do that the game must at its very core be committed to some sort of structure commanding buildup and release of tension, some deeper logic which messes with the usual static snowballing accumulation. Such structure may emerge spontaneously from game mechanics, but this is very hard to achieve for very complex games and civ6 has also failed at this task, having all those "rise and fall" mechanics which together were clearly insufficient.

So civ7 is based precisely on this intuition and devs taking the risk going with it all the way. The game is going to have a clear beginning, middle and the end; very strong instead of soft segmentation into three acts, which radically mess with the players and the game. Each of those three acts is supposed to have somewhat dofferent mechanics and tell its own story and they all together come into one great story (history) which has shifts and turns, quantum leaps and collapses instead of endless static growth of the usual 4X games. Game rules change to acommodate different needs of beginning, middle and the end and the players (civs) themselves change to reflect that.

But why are civs changing, couldn't they have stayed the same? It is worth noting that the new approach is also explicitly more historical in its aims: more historically narrow civilisations, era transitions resembling historical shifts, and I suppose mechanics reflecting each period more specifically. If we have an actual attempt to emulate ancient era defined by bronze and iron and pantheons and then attacked by barbarians, then we can't have Brazil there - it breaks the historical narrative. Historical eras change dramatically, so it makes sense for the same to happen to their protagonists.

Time will show how it's all going to work out, but personally I am mostly excited by Firaxis taking this massive undertaking (though I would like option to stay with the same civs) - it's actually very novel approach to 4X games. Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri had a narrative structure as its characteristic, but Civ7 goes way further than that. It's an attempt to reflect how different eras of history make society functio n differently, and an attempt to strike directly at the 4X problem of static snowballing till boring endgame.

Your conclusions mirror mine. If this won't be a sandbox game (and it looks like it will be a hybrid), it will drop back into the played 250 hours, fond memories from the current played 4500+ hours, ugh can't stomach it anymore category. Which, I think, is more in line what Sid himself wants. And is way healthier for sure. Although, if that's the case, i'm not so sure that the complexity of it is even warranted. No point in having a race car engine in a pickup truck. Also, historical games are just too long not to be a sandbox. This game will be a novelty, for sure, but novelties drop off quite quickly these days.
 
The problem is the lack of a “narrative” is also repetitive, because the game mechanics Always encourage a narrative. Some approaches will require trade offs, others will fail.

So civ 1-6 each had their own game mechanic based narrative. Which for most was Snowball Away (initial build, conquer, click to win)

Yep. The 4X narrative. Explore Expand Exploit Exterminate.

Now is it Explore Expand Evolve Exchange?
 
Yep. The 4X narrative. Explore Expand Exploit Exterminate.

Now is it Explore Expand Evolve Exchange?
The problem is that 4X narrative only applies the first 1/2 of the game and then it is Click Click Click Click

In Civ 7 it appears we get
Explore Expand Exploit Exterminate.
Avoid Extinction
Explore Expand Exploit Exterminate.
Avoid Extinction
Explore Expand Exploit Exterminate.

A 14 X narrative
 
Well, the narrative was the intro & outro, leading a civ to the stars. In between you had the "sandbox" - exploration, wars, tech discovery, building cities etc. The 4X. That was the story.

Now, you'll have your civ rising and falling. You need clever writers/designers to tell you "oh, your successful civ declines, gets overrun by barbarians and subjugated, but your imperial family flees to another kingdom" (Or something else).

The argument has shifted to the all or nothing fallacy of “if there is any sort of structure at all, it can’t be a sandbox”.

These sorts of semantics is a tell tale sign that your position is probably the correct one.

I would also argue that any and all agency they can give to the gamer is A Good Thing.

Let us rename our Civs, Leaders, Cities, Towns, Settlements, Ships, Scout's dogs, - everything they can fiddle the UI into accepting.

After all, if the Mongols are going to spring full-tilt from Egypt via the Game Design Magic Wand, it's a much smaller stretch (to me) to rename them Kushans or the Karlak Yabgu or the Cuman-Kipchak Confederation with my own City List.
A horse archer is a horse archer is a Keshik . . .

Leaders might be harder in Civ VII, since they have reduced the gamer to a Third Person while the Leaders snarl at each other, but at least in the printed text of their speeches, it shouldn't be that hard to change a name . . .

How about some agency in literally the fate of my civilization?
 
Historical simulation versus sandbox is something that the Paradox EU series has had to deal with. There have certainly been zealous advocates for both positions on their forums down through the years.

For example, is the Reformation an automatic event that the player has no control over?

Likewise, can you let Wallachia as the AI colonize South America or do you leave that for the player alone or conversely not allow the player to do that at all? How about the Moors colonizing Iceland or Greenland?

I personally fall in the middle. I sometimes enjoy a more historically minded game but at other times, I would like the freedom to go full sandbox where pretty well there are no restraints. So, I have always advocated for two gameplay modes. That way, everyone is happy.
 
I personally fall in the middle. I sometimes enjoy a more historically minded game but at other times, I would like the freedom to go full sandbox where pretty well there are no restraints. So, I have always advocated for two gameplay modes. That way, everyone is happy.
With two gameplay modes you usually end up with a game that doesn't do either well. And now no one is happy.

I much prefer games to not try to be everything to everyone and instead focus in on doing one thing really well.

I can play Sandbox Game A when I want a sandbox and Historical Narrative Game B when I want that. Its also more enjoyable to play a range of different games instead of sink my entire gaming life into one single title.
 
With two gameplay modes you usually end up with a game that doesn't do either well. And now no one is happy.

I much prefer games to not try to be everything to everyone and instead focus in on doing one thing really well.

I can play Sandbox Game A when I want a sandbox and Historical Narrative Game B when I want that. Its also more enjoyable to play a range of different games instead of sink my entire gaming life into one single title.

Meh. They gave gameplay options before to accommodate historical realism fans versus sandbox fans.

Firaxis is talented and isn't stupid. They'll figure it out.
 
How about some agency in literally the fate of my civilization?
As someone who recently grew a startup into a company, Civ7 mimicks real life well. Every "new level" of advancement brings new, bigger predators, waiting to pounce on the unsuspecting fawn. It doesn't matter "how ready you were" for the issues at the lower level, the new ones are just brutal. The thing is – you don't really have any agency. Like with Mongols and their invasion of the Kingdom of Hungary, you can't just immediately cancel all nobles' bickering and infighting. By the moment everyone realizes what's going on, the tsunami is already crashing.
 
As someone who recently grew a startup into a company, Civ7 mimicks real life well. Every "new level" of advancement brings new, bigger predators, waiting to pounce on the unsuspecting fawn. It doesn't matter "how ready you were" for the issues at the lower level, the new ones are just brutal. The thing is – you don't really have any agency. Like with Mongols and their invasion of the Kingdom of Hungary, you can't just immediately cancel all nobles' bickering and infighting. By the moment everyone realizes what's going on, the tsunami is already crashing.

I'm sorry and I mean absolutely no offense when I say that I'm really struggling to see how the growth of your start up corporation relates to the video game series Civilization and the very loose and unrealistic/unhistoric 4x abstraction of human history it creates
 
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I'm sorry and I mean absolutely no offense when I say that I'm really struggling to see how the growth of your start up corporation relates to the video game series Civilization and the very loose and unrealistic/historic 4x abstraction of human history it creates

This is a game, which means there is supposed to be a reasonable level of challenge and engagement.

I seem to recall the people defending era changes and forced civ switching as “well it’s not a similation”

Well that argument cuts both ways
 
I'm sorry and I mean absolutely no offense when I say that I'm really struggling to see how the growth of your start up corporation relates to the video game series Civilization and the very loose and unrealistic/historic 4x abstraction of human history it creates
What I mean is that what leads to historical "unrealism" in 4X games is the idea that a single empire can exist for a 4000 years. Every empire grew out of the specific requirements of it's era, geography, peoples and conflicts. The moment those difficulties were overcome, stagnation and eventual downfall would follow. Or an absorption into another empire. Or the empire somehow managed to reinvent itself. The snowball effect from 4X games doesn't exist in real life. Except for Elon Musk. He seems to be "the exception" in everything.
 
What I mean is that what leads to historical "unrealism" in 4X games is the idea that a single empire can exist for a 4000 years. Every empire grew out of the specific requirements of it's era, geography, peoples and conflicts. The moment those difficulties were overcome, stagnation and eventual downfall would follow. Or an absorption into another empire. Or the empire somehow managed to reinvent itself. The snowball effect from 4X games doesn't exist in real life. Except for Elon Musk. He seems to be "the exception" in everything.

I think there is sort of a longing or yearning for a Civilization that does exist on and on. There are plenty of fictional books about if Rome never fell, for example. I have read a few of them.

I just recently read a book on the fall of the Incan Empire and I lamented what could have been. They really had a unique society and governance model.

We all mourn the death of individuals in our own lives and we (or many of us history geeks, anyway) mourn the death of civilizations.

I think in Civ we could all fulfill that longing or yearning. At least that's how I feel.
 
I think there is sort of a longing or yearning for a Civilization that does exist on and on. There are plenty of fictional books about if Rome never fell, for example. I have read a few of them.

I just recently read a book on the fall of the Incan Empire and I lamented what could have been. They really had a unique society and governance model.

We all mourn the death of individuals in our own lives and we (or many of us history geeks, anyway) mourn the death of civilizations.

I think in Civ we could all fulfill that longing or yearning. At least that's how I feel.

But the whole point of Civ 7 is that your Empire (or Civilization) DOES exist on and on.

It doesn't die. It grows and gets stronger. It keeps the best of its past and adds new layers from the current Age.

The Incan Empire is a tragic tale because it DID fall . . . but an Incan empire that survived wouldn't have stayed the same . . . it would have evolved . . . at least I sure hope so (I don't fancy ritual sacrifice of children and animals in a modern society!).

I don't expect my Roman empire to keep running legions around in the 1800's or to fail to modernize its government, religion, and society.
 
But the whole point of Civ 7 is that your Empire (or Civilization) DOES exist on and on.

It doesn't die. It grows and gets stronger. It keeps the best of its past and adds new layers from the current Age.

The Incan Empire is a tragic tale because it DID fall . . . but an Incan empire that survived wouldn't have stayed the same . . . it would have evolved . . . at least I sure hope so (I don't fancy ritual sacrifice of children and animals in a modern society!).

I don't expect my Roman empire to keep running legions around in the 1800's or to fail to modernize its government, religion, and society.

Naw. The hybrid chimeric FrankenCiv three headed monster ie Egypt/Songhai/Buganda is not appealing at all. 😵

The Civ series has always been about immortal empires and that appeals to a lot of people as evidenced by the plethora of historical what if fictional books. There is something deep down in our souls that yearns for an immortal kingdom that will never end.

Anyway, the bit about human/animal sacrifice, of course I don't support that. The Spanish outlawed that, which was good, but substituted something extremely loathsome in its place. Mass enslavement. 😥
 
There is something deep down in our souls that yearns for an immortal kingdom that will never end.
The only immortal thing is change. I think what you refer to is the ability to identify and track that "constant change". I understand that. It's much easer to track something red (that empire's name, that leader's name) in a sea of something green.

Even now, there is very few things connecting a Civ game empire on Turn 1 to an empire at turn 200. Empire's leader, color and name is the only thing that is truly the same. I guess you could keep a roman legion unit around in modern era, just for novelty.
 
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